Have you tried a GSXR rear shock and an aftermarket offering?

[ninja2007]

Hi,

I redid the front springs on my 2007 with .75kg sonic springs and fresh fork oil... As can be expected, now the weakness of the rear end are apparent.

Instead of feeling both ends pogo around, and bottom out only the rear is doing it...

I'm curious if you've done both, are the stiffer shocks off other bikes 5/10ths of an aftermarket shock, or are they night and day difference?

Thanks,

Zach

[Alex]

Bump. (I know there are a bunch of folks here with gsx-r and similar rear shocks...)

[csmith12]

Are they 5/10ths? hmmm, sometimes maybe. What is your riding goal for this bike?

Imho, they are not night and day difference until you push the bike near the limits. Then the extra fine tuning adjustability of the aftermarket shocks becomes apparent. While the adjustments are very subtle, the feel and confidence gained by the rider can be large, maybe even night and day.

Since your bike is a 07, it will never be a 100% stable machine at extreme paces. The frame becomes it's greatest weakness. After much review, searching and based on my own experiences with a gsxr shock on my 2010 250 and having ridden other bikes with ohlins, penske and the likes shocks, I decided that another gsxr shock will go on my pregen. Because the difference isn't worth the extra $700 on that bike.

Now if your goal is overall ride comfort on the street. Again looking at the offerings, the price runs the full spectrum. How much do you wanna spend? No need to get a $1k shock to street ride with comfort. A stock gsxr will get you there just fine much cheaper, but I do love me a good ohlins. Bling, Bling

[bruce71198]

I have experience with many shock options on newer bikes (08-12) but the difference should be the same. Heres how I rate them; I have a bike with an Ohlins and one with a Penske, both worlds better than stock and about even as far as performance, Penske is better if I had to choose. I have another with an Elka which is a good shock for the money, lacks a little in the adjustability dapartment. Odd thing is I set faster lap times with this shock over the Ohlins, probably not the shock making the difference. And finally I just picked up a bike that has a SV650 shock in it, works surprisingly well, I attribute this to the spring rate most of all. So what do you do now? I would say if your an intermediate rider or under get a used SV shock. If your going for the Ninja250 Moto GP championship spend the dough on a Penske.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Odd thing is I set faster lap times with this shock over the Ohlins

So I wasn't the only one? I have posted this in other threads in the past but I can't say that any more. I finally broke through and set a new personal best on my current gsx shock setup, by a whole second and half. Only took me 2yrs to do it.

You mention SV shock for 250's. There isn't much posted about using those. Any details you can share? Year, model, fitment ext...?

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by csmith12

So I wasn't the only one? I have posted this in other threads in the past but I can't say that any more. I finally broke through and set a new personal best on my current gsx shock setup, by a whole second and half. Only took me 2yrs to do it.

You mention SV shock for 250's. There isn't much posted about using those. Any details you can share? Year, model, fitment ext...?

Unfortunately I cant tell you what year it came off of as I purchased the bike this way. It looks like you will need to space out the dogbones with some washers. and grind the lower shock mount on the shock, grab some new bolts from Ace Hardware and off you go. Fits in there nice as this shock doesnt have a resevour. If your down at Bowling Green sunday swing by and check it out if you want.

[alex.s]

the stock rear shock with after fronts is a really bad combo and makes you crash. i know first hand.

i have a gsxr shock and an r1 shock on the two ninjas. the r1 is a bit stiffer with more adjustability but its harder to get mounted. they both require changing dogbones.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Unfortunately I cant tell you what year it came off of as I purchased the bike this way. It looks like you will need to space out the dogbones with some washers. and grind the lower shock mount on the shock, grab some new bolts from Ace Hardware and off you go. Fits in there nice as this shock doesnt have a resevour. If your down at Bowling Green sunday swing by and check it out if you want.

I am planning on coming but just for the paddock fun on Sat. My 2fiddy is at barber with a different pilot. I could bring the r6 and ride in N but naw... I have a feeling I am gunna recognize you. Did we race together at Putnam with MCRA?

And to make this post relevant to the thread, and with Bruce's permission. I will take a few pics to post here.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I am planning on coming but just for the paddock fun on Sat. My 2fiddy is at barber with a different pilot. I could bring the r6 and ride in N but naw... I have a feeling I am gunna recognize you. Did we race together at Putnam with MCRA?

And to make this post relevant to the thread, and with Bruce's permission. I will take a few pics to post here.

I will be coming up from barber. I could bring your bike. I think your out of excuses not to run this event. I was at Putnam, didn't ride, my son ran his SV650.

[MirinNinja]

Originally Posted by alex.s

the stock rear shock with after fronts is a really bad combo and makes you crash. i know first hand.

i have a gsxr shock and an r1 shock on the two ninjas. the r1 is a bit stiffer with more adjustability but its harder to get mounted. they both require changing dogbones.

How bad of an idea is it to run a gsxr shock with stock fronts?

[sharky nrk]

While the SV shock may be a bit better than the Ninjette stocker - I'm pretty sure the stock SV shock is regarded as junk as well. I don't see any reason to use it over a GSXR shock.

An aftermarket SV shock may not be a poor option if you could get it for the right price???

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by MirinNinja

How bad of an idea is it to run a gsxr shock with stock fronts?

Not terrible, but not good either. I did this... It was so cheap to upgrade the rear this way, I did it first and rode for half the race season. If you ask my friends who pitted with me they would quote me: "I feel like I am gunna tuck the front every corner but the rear is rock solid."

But honestly, for N and I paces on the track it's fine(okish...) and definately ok for street comfort.

[alex.s]

i also did only the rear first. i think its not a good idea to do just the rear. losing the rear happens slower. losing the front happens a lot faster. doing only the rear makes the front feel like it's about to wash out every corner... i would do the fronts first if i had to again

[subxero]

I don't race but like others have mentioned it is worth doing both the front and rear to balance things out a bit for sure

On the track I think the gsxr rear shock swap would probably be good enough that you would not need to spend the extra $ on a fancy aftermarket shock. The gsxr shock has compression dampening and rebound and preload adjustment which I would think is enough adjustment to get you dialed in on most tracks especially if you re-spring it for your weight. I only see the gsxr shock being noticably outshined by triple clicker aftermarkets on rough beat up tracks.

Like I mentioned I don't ride track but I had the gsxr shock on my bike for a while for my street riding. It felt better than stock but i was still not 100% happy with it. The roads I ride are generally pretty beat up with patch work, pot holes, upheavals you name it and I found the gsxr shock was to harsh for my liking especially at speed with the more square hits. I ended up getting a gsxr aftermarket ohlins and re-sprung it. I like it a lot more, I now have hi and low speed dampening and hand adjustable hydraulic preload. <-- both of which I don't think would be overly useful on the track and why I think the gsxr shock is definitely bang for your buck and gonna get you results.


Again this is mostly my arm chair coach theory as I nor has my bike ever seen the tarmac of a track. <--- hopefully this changes next year

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by subxero

It felt better than stock but i was still not 100% happy with it. The roads I ride are generally pretty beat up with patch work, pot holes, upheavals you name it and I found the gsxr shock was to harsh for my liking especially at speed with the more square hits.

It's easy to confirm what you said when one reads in the German Gixxer-Forums, what around 50% of the 600 and 750 riders do at their rear shock is - change the way to stiff spring.
But also some like it that way, so...

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

I like it a lot more, I now have hi and low speed damping and hand adjustable hydraulic preload. <-- both of which I don't think would be overly useful on the track

We got a lot to chat about when I make it up your way soon. For example; taking a bit of low speed damping out can address some chatter at pace when running over some small ripples in the tarmac from the cars that were on the track the weekend before. Nelson Ledges.... commonly referred to as "the only paved MX track in the US". The fastest riders there click both high and low speed damping, some even adjust their preload too. That place is a minefield but getting better.

In general, a fully race/track setup suspension may feel pretty harsh on the street and vice versa for a street setup, suspension may feel pretty soft on the track. If one is a really lightweight rider or the rider simply don't like it then yea, a spring swap may be in order.

In principle, I do agree with alex.s, put your coin in the front first. Since Zach has already addressed the front on his 07.... But John is riding a presumed stock 300, then maybe he should crank the rear preload up and go for the front bits first.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

We got a lot to chat about when I make it up your way soon. For example; taking a bit of low speed damping out can address some chatter at pace when running over some small ripples in the tarmac from the cars that were on the track the weekend before. Nelson Ledges.... commonly referred to as "the only paved MX track in the US". The fastest riders there click both high and low speed damping, some even adjust their preload too. That place is a minefield but getting better.

In general, a fully race/track setup suspension may feel pretty harsh on the street and vice versa for a street setup, suspension may feel pretty soft on the track. If one is a really lightweight rider or the rider simply don't like it then yea, a spring swap may be in order.

In principle, I do agree with alex.s, put your coin in the front first. Since Zach has already addressed the front on his 07.... But John is riding a presumed stock 300, then maybe he should crank the rear preload up and go for the front bits first.

I would def second this. When you ride these little bikes fast, your riding the front tire. It is far more common to see people lose the front than the rear when railing on the Ninjette in my experience. Trusting the front and knowing what its doing it huge.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by csmith12

We got a lot to chat about when I make it up your way soon. For example; taking a bit of low speed damping out can address some chatter at pace when running over some small ripples in the tarmac from the cars that were on the track the weekend before. Nelson Ledges.... commonly referred to as "the only paved MX track in the US". The fastest riders there click both high and low speed damping, some even adjust their preload too. That place is a minefield but getting better.

In general, a fully race/track setup suspension may feel pretty harsh on the street and vice versa for a street setup, suspension may feel pretty soft on the track. If one is a really lightweight rider or the rider simply don't like it then yea, a spring swap may be in order.

In principle, I do agree with alex.s, put your coin in the front first. Since Zach has already addressed the front on his 07.... But John is riding a presumed stock 300, then maybe he should crank the rear preload up and go for the front bits first.

I'm here to learn

[csmith12]

^^^^ bwahahahahhaha aren't we all my brudda.

[MirinNinja]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Not terrible, but not good either. I did this... It was so cheap to upgrade the rear this way

Yeah I just put in a gsxr shock as it was a cheap upgrade as I don't have the cash right now for new springs. Hope it doesn't end in a crash

[csmith12]

After running 20+ races and some street with that setup (gsxr shock only), it "normally" doesn't let go all at once on clean dry pavement/tarmac. It will give ya some feedback most of the time but will depend on how in tune you are with the bike and how well you listen to what the bike is telling you.

Here is the real deal....

You pop the shock on and leave the front stock and ride some. Nice... everything feels good so you get a little more confidence, and pretty soon you got yourself a nice pace kickin'. At some point your railing the corner entries, as much as you are the exits because of the extra good feedback you're getting from the rear woot woot . The problem comes, when the rider bases the pace beyond the abilities of the front based on the traction feedback from the rear. BOOM! Tucked front.

Ask me how I know.... I have been THAT guy, don't be that guy too.

If you're a hard core canyon carver/track/racer, you might want to think which tire has the most possibility of traction. If you're mostly tame street, then just be mindful in the wet. Everything else is pretty much a non event.

The only other issue that relates is rider ability. Some riders hate the front moving around, others are somewhat ok with it.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The problem comes, when the rider bases the pace beyond the abilities of the front based on the traction feedback from the rear. BOOM! Tucked front.

Ask me how I know.... I have been THAT guy, don't be that guy too.

werd! i been there.

[MirinNinja]

Well the 300 is track only so I have a SC2 in the front which is pretty damn sticky. I'll replace it with an R10 or SC1 once it wears out. I don't think front end grip is a problem per se, just that I fear having much better suspension at the back versus the front may upset handling/balance somehow?

[csmith12]

Sure it can, but next time you're at the track, go see the suspension tech. They can balance it back out vs. the front you're comfortable with. After that, just tweak to your liking. You got new knobs to turn!!!!

[alex.s]

turn them nobs!

[MirinNinja]

Hmm my problem is I've never played around with suspension settings before so I have no idea how to adjust them. I mean I know what rebound and compression damping mean but I have no clue on whether what I'm feeling is 'good' or 'bad'. How did you guys start out figuring how the bike feels?

[csmith12]

Actually, that question is surprisingly hard to answer as humans are quite the tolerable sort of creature and there is some truth to the saying "ignorance is bliss" as some riders ride the crap out of some pretty messed up stuff imho.

There are obvious things like, thumps, thuds and such... bikes shouldn't do that (unless a wheel is off the ground). There are still obvious but more subtle things like pogoing action, strong dives in the front and the bike is reluctant to turn/stay on line. Further subtle and often mistaken for rider errors are things like, running wide in corners, lethargic steering, the inability to get the weight distributed properly between the front and rear of the bike, again holding a line and even little skips and skids.

Here is a good example of why you might want to learn to turn a few knobs. On a track I race, the tarmac is pretty good. Only a few imperfections in a few corners, no biggy.... race on. That same bike with the same settings at a different track with bigger bumps, potholes in the straight , or maybe a few crests doesn't feel as planted. Knowing that I should open up the high speed damping some for all those bigger bumps down the straight at 145mph is an asset to my confidence, feel, lap time, and not to mention my (and others close to me) safety. Those changes just might prevent a slapper.

And no chatter about suspension settings is complete without tires. Your rear tire (front too) can say a lot about what is going on at pace. It's a bit of an inexact science but some issues are pretty common, tears/strange wear patterns and cupping.

In the end what basics do I look for? I start with 3 main things.

1. Does the bike fight me (negative feedback) while trying to smoothly roll on the throttle.
2. Does the bike hold a line with little to no weight on the bars and no additional steering inputs.
3. Does it "feel" right. Every rider knows that feeling of lack of traction or stability, it sucks.

If one can get those three things gtg and the tire pressures are at least halfway close, you can go pretty fast.

[Somchai]

The posts #21 and #27 from @csmith12 I would like to say everybody must read

[MirinNinja]

I'm one of those guys that's just been riding the crap out of the stock bits (though still not terrilby fast or anything. I'm about 4.5-5 secs off the REALLY Ninja 300 racers).

To be frank those 3 things you listed, the bike ticked all 3 boxes with stock front and rear. The only thing I don't like about stock suspension is now badly it nose dives under hard decel but even that doesn't bother me too much as I don't trail my braking very much.

If the track is reasonably smooth (not GP track smooth but certainly no pot holes!) should I be leaning towards Hard or Soft compression/rebound damping?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by MirinNinja

If the track is reasonably smooth (not GP track smooth but certainly no pot holes!) should I be leaning towards Hard or Soft compression/rebound damping?

The suspension tech should baseline those settings off the the front first, they may adjust preload too.

Since the front is relatively soft, my best estimate is the rear will also lean toward the soft side to keep the bike acting as a single unit (no pogoing). Since the track is reasonably smooth, with no harsh bumps... your low speed damping will be where you do most of your tweaking based your turn in pace plus on how aggressive your throttle application is (not such a big deal on lower power bikes). He/she may ask what skill group you ride in and adjust the high speed damping for the cornering forces expected at apex. Rebound largely based on how aggressive your braking is. When the front dives under hard braking, the rebound in the rear has to "keep up" to keep the rear tire on the tarmac, same deal if trail braking deep. If you are trailing deep a low speed damping adjustment in the rear may be in order for to help smooth out the brake to throttle transition, especially important on low powered bikes as this transition can be fairly aggressive in some cases.

Have a look here, the two videos in post #17 will put you on the right path of understanding what effect each knob will have when you turn it. Teach a man to fish right?

Tip: After the suspension tech sets it up, write it down! And if you make a change, do it in small increments. If you don't like it, you can return it to the original position since you have it noted.

Tip 2: The rider is not part of the suspension. The front or rear can't compensate for the rider moving around on the bike. So when the suspension tech says "saddle up". Sit on the bike as if you are cornering, just without the hang off.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by MirinNinja

To be frank those 3 things you listed, the bike ticked all 3 boxes with stock front and rear.

I wanted to comment on this separately. I am just an old country boy, so I look at the world with a lot of common sense if ya feel me. I kinda live my riding life by two things;

1. As long as the bike is better than me, we will get along just fine. (this little tidbit just might keep you shiny side up even when the rider makes mistakes)
2. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

So if the stock bits are keeping you satisfied and you haven't reached the limits of that setup, then there is no problem. And if you want to "find a problem", then the problem is the rider. If your skill starts to approach the limits of the bike's setup, she will let ya know.

What I mean is... if you want to find something to "work on" then the rider is always at the top of the list or a very close second.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

I will be coming up from barber. I could bring your bike. I think your out of excuses not to run this event. I was at Putnam, didn't ride, my son ran his SV650.

I aint gunna make it even though I tried my best to attend if even in the paddock. I have made plans with another ninjette member that I have given my word that I would be there from a while back. And... I don't go back on my word.

You guys have fun, stay safe and go fast. Looking forward to the reports on how the track flows and rides.

[MirinNinja]

Thanks for the detailed explanation mate. Looks I'll have some work to do at the next track day

[ninja2007]

Thanks for the thoughts guys!

For my uses, I don't think this bike will see track use until I get another set of wheels for track oriented tires.

My roads down here are covered with tar snakes, which are just big enough with my 200lbs to thump the bump stops on a stock 300 shock.

I think a lot of what I have going against me is the ride height on the rear has the swingarm at or just below level, and raising the rear a bit would give a bit better geometry.

Thanks,

Zach

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I aint gunna make it even though I tried my best to attend if even in the paddock. I have made plans with another ninjette member that I have given my word that I would be there from a while back. And... I don't go back on my word.

You guys have fun, stay safe and go fast. Looking forward to the reports on how the track flows and rides.

Sorry we couldnt meet up. It was quite the experience. That new track is a riot on the 250's.

[ninja2007]

Picked up a GSXR shock...

Any suggestions for Pre-gen dog bones to set the ride height back to stock or a bit above?

Thanks,

Zach

[Z1R rider]

Originally Posted by ninja2007

Picked up a GSXR shock...

Any suggestions for Pre-gen dog bones to set the ride height back to stock or a bit above?

Thanks,

Zach

I just put GSXR 600 shock on my 02, used stock bones with stock GSXR spring and sag ended up about 1/4" higher than the stock shock that had 1/2" of preload spacers on it. Of course you can adjust the GSXR shock's preload to set the sag.

[ninja2007]

Did you have to do any modifications to the battery box?

I was reading on one of the other ninja websites that I may run into that...

Waiting for a drill bit to come in. $10 for a 15/32, I figured I can wait for a real 12mm to arrive. Grin.

Thanks,

Zach

[Z1R rider]

cut the battery box off, (used a hacksaw) so that it had "ears" on it, and moved it up about an inch and sheet metal screwed it back onto the air cleaner box. then had to cut off the bracket on the back of the top shock mount, (used a sawzall) that supports the front of the rear fender, just tossed it. used only the holes in the bottom of the battery box to support the front of rear fender. had to dill one new hole in the coolant reservoir mounting tab as the rear fender gets relocated a little

[cbinker]

I have an 08 with .8 fork inners and a gsxr rear stock shock, it is pretty balanced, probably could have gone softer in the forks though.