Trouble starting bike.

[Floki]

Well... My bike spins over fast for a second or so, then the speed at which it turns over slows down and then it stops spinning over. I put a brand new battery in my bike, replaced plugs as well and it still does this. If the bike catches and starts in that first .5-1 second I can ride off on it, however it does not always catch.

Also, this is a 2005 R1. You guys are normally the fastest to respond on tech questions.

[csmith12]

Any clunking sounds? If so, do they come from the side cover or from your starter?

Starter brushes/solenoid or starter clutch. But my $$ is on the starter.

[Floki]

No clunking noises. If I hold the start button until it doesn't turn over anymore I get a clicking. A starter is $450

[csmith12]

You might consider a used one from ebay or local bike shop/friend. There are rebuild kits too. It aint hard to rebuild them, it's basically taking the brush assembly out and replacing them with the new assembly and a couple of wires. House it back up and reinstall on the bike. Bout a hunnit. :\

[Floki]

If I pull the starter off will I be able to see if it is bad or not?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Floki

Well... My bike spins over fast for a second or so, then the speed at which it turns over slows down and then it stops spinning over. I put a brand new battery in my bike, replaced plugs as well and it still does this. If the bike catches and starts in that first .5-1 second I can ride off on it, however it does not always catch.

Also, this is a 2005 R1. You guys are normally the fastest to respond on tech questions.

If you are sure that the new battery and its connections and the connectors to the solenoid and starter are all 100% OK, the next step would be verifying the internal contacts of the solenoid, switches and starter (carbons).

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...attery_is_dead

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Starter_circuit_schematic

http://www.amazon.com/Starter-Kawasa.../dp/B008CPEWMM

It seems to be a contact problem that gets worse with rising temperature in the wires/contacts.

Connecting your starter directly to the battery will indicate is the internal carbons of the starter are worn.

[Ninjinsky]

When the starter 'dies' give it a sharp tap with a 17 mm spanner or similar heavyish object. This often jars the worn brushes slightly and it turns ok.
Not sure if the brushes are replaceable on those but if they are it will be a lot less than a new starter.
The contacts on the starter solenoid can go. But TBH I don't see why a 2005 would have any problems yet unless it has been dispatch ridden or something that uses the starter a lot. Double check all "big wire" connections

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Floki

If I pull the starter off will I be able to see if it is bad or not?

Not really unless there is obvious damage. You can try an old hillbilly trick though.

Give the starter solenoid a few gentle love taps with a hammer when it stops again.

Basically this procedure;
Push start button (keep holding)
Bike turns over and stops (keep holding)
Love taps (keep holding)

If the starter begins to turn over, you just found your problem area. It's not 100% but it's right most of the time.

[Floki]

Just found out my starter is tucked underneath the throttle bodies. fml

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by Floki

Just found out my starter is tucked underneath the throttle bodies. fml

Look on the bright side, It renders you less vulnerable to starter motor thieves

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Floki

Just found out my starter is tucked underneath the throttle bodies. fml

That is why they make long extensions. So you can still hit things that are tucked under other things.

[Floki]

Chris, I have to be one of the dumbest mechanics there ever was. My battery terminals were not on there tight enough. I guess this is where some people start and one day I will be able to make things work the first time.

[Ducati999]

Originally Posted by Floki

Chris, I have to be one of the dumbest mechanics there ever was. My battery terminals were not on there tight enough. I guess this is where some people start and one day I will be able to make things work the first time.

The clicking is the answer to the problem! The starter solenoid is the problem. If the connections are bad then that should be the problem or the internal switch but since it does turn over the motor and start just wont continue to spin (along with the solenoid clicking) indicates the "relay" is the source of the issue

[MrAtom]

I don't like to tighten down those soft little screws too hard either

[csmith12]

I hate those little buggers so much, give me a bit and I will take a pic of how I did it on my new r6. It has a quickconnect.

[Floki]

It's still this issue @csmith12 now it won't start at all.

[csmith12]

Will it try to turn over or is it just super slow?

[Floki]

Turns over normally at first then slows down, when it slows down the dash cuts off.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Floki

Turns over normally at first then slows down, when it slows down the dash cuts off.

Don't assume your "new" battery is good or fully charged - check it.

Read the battery voltage before you hit the starter - it should be 12.7V if it's 100%. Then read it when you are cranking - you should still get around 11V.

I'm thinking one or the other will be too low. A battery can hold correct voltage until under load, then drop off to an unusable level.

If you don't have 12.7V before cranking, try charging until you do. That may take a while (maybe 5 hours or more, depending). After it shows "fully charged" leave it off of the charger for a few hours to bleed-off the surface charge (additional voltage) from charging. Then read it. It should read 12.7V or higher at that point.

[csmith12]

Thanks Jay!

Let's help Floki out STAT! He has a track day he is trying to make on time (30 days!). I am feeling it's still starter brushes but the dash going out points at the battery again or it's shorting.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Thanks Jay!

Let's help Floki out STAT! He has a track day he is trying to make on time (30 days!). I am feeling it's still starter brushes but the dash going out points at the battery again or it's shorting.

Hopefully it's a simple issue, but it could certainly be a more complicated problem. Repairing the starter wouldn't be a huge job though.

My latest project bike (1st gen SV) had really slow cranking, even with batteries that checked-out. I initially thought there was an internal damage that was creating excessive friction (not good). Luckily it was just a bad starter relay.

You guys and your winter trackdays...

It was below 0F here this morning.

[flitecontrol]

If the battery and ground connections are clean and tight, try jumping it from a car battery with the car engine off. If it starts, the battery needs charging or is bad. If it is bad, return it and get a Yuasa brand battery. They are much, much, better than the typical cheap Chinese made crappy batteries, and are OEM for many Japanese bikes. Some of the Chinese batteries are bad right out of the box, and yours may be one. The Yuasa may cost a little more, but it will last much longer, making it the best buy for your money.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

If the battery and ground connections are clean and tight, try jumping it from a car battery with the car engine off. If it starts, the battery needs charging or is bad. If it is bad, return it and get a Yuasa brand battery. They are much, much, better than the typical cheap Chinese made crappy batteries, and are OEM for many Japanese bikes. Some of the Chinese batteries are bad right out of the box, and yours may be one. The Yuasa may cost a little more, but it will last much longer, making it the best buy for your money.

I agree.

The original Yuasa from '06 SV was getting weak after over 7 years of use, so I purchased another a couple seasons ago.

Cheap batteries were about $50-$60, and I think I paid $90 for the Yuasa.

[csmith12]

@Floki is there any chance you can jump it from a car battery or get a local friend to test with a spare bike battery or theirs? Dat's what friends are for.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Floki

It's still this issue @csmith12 now it won't start at all.

If you cannot fix it with a hammer, it is an electrical problem.

Your starter is a strong rotating electric magnet.
The resistance to turn from the engine remains the same (compression, oil viscosity, part's friction, etc.)
The more Amps flow through the internal coils, the strongest the torque of the starter motor is.

In your case, that flow of Amps (think of water flowing inside a pipe) starts being strong but weaken (slowdown) in a few seconds.
There are two possible causes only:
- The battery is unable to sustain a strong flow of Amps.
- One or several of the contacts in the circuit (including contacts inside the starter motor and starter and cut-off switches) heat up while initial Amps are flowing, worsening a mediocre contact, increasing resistance much and slowing or even stopping the flow of Amps.

The simplest test is to directly connect a big (lots of Amp-h) and strong (fresh top charge) battery to your starter motor: if the thing spins with authority, then the guts of the starter are OK.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...0&postcount=21

http://www.dansmc.com/electric_starters.htm

Then you connect that battery to your regular battery connections: if the motor spins well, then the problem is your battery; if not, then the problem is in one or several contacts of the circuit between battery and motor, including solenoids and switches.

[Floki]

@csmith12 I hooked it up to a car battery and it spun strong. However the bike refused to start. It's been sitting for about 2 weeks now.

On the third attempt it did slow down a tidbit

[csmith12]

Cool, still could be the brushes because your throwing so much at it. But.....

Ohm test your stator mang STAT!!! I was in the pits at Jennings with a bad stator and lived to tell the tale. A bad stator/pick up coil will make it hard to start and not charge the battery well. But, with enough effort, the bike should start. It's a common issue on yamaha engines.

[Linkin]

If the dash is dying then your battery is low. Run a multimeter on it while attempting to start and see what the voltage does.

Also if you can't get the electric start going then try a roll start on a slight downhill slope or get someone to push you. Clutch in, stick it in second, pop clutch and rev it to keep it going. Helps to have the choke on full as well if it's a carb'd bike

Also what's the temperature like, and where do you store your bike? Cold is bad for batteries

TBH it sounds like your starter is dead. I know because I just replaced mine on the 250R. Find a secondhand one on ebay. Intermittent or weak cranking, and then sometimes it only clicks when you press the starter (that's the solenoid doing it's thing. No clicking = dead solenoid or bad connection) are the signs

[Floki]

I'm getting it to start now but the cylinder to the far left is not firing. Could I have fouled the plug with all the starting?

[csmith12]

Fouled hmmmm, my guess is just slightly flooded. It's a yami man, they can be a bit moody after having a hard time starting and sitting for a while.

Do this, flick the run button on and off about 3 times should do the trick. Listen closely each time, wait until you hear the fuel pump kick off before doing it again. Then bump the starter a few times to ensure everything is primed up nicely. After bumping it, try to fire it up, she should start unless something else is wrong.

Also, modern sport bikes do not like low batteries. Some will spin and not start if there isn't juice in the battery. :\

[Floki]

Still isn't firing on one of the cylinders , autozone has the plugs. Should I replace one or all? They're 3 week old plugs...

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Floki

Still isn't firing on one of the cylinders , autozone has the plugs. Should I replace one or all? They're 3 week old plugs...

Swap the non firing plug with another in the line. If the non firing cylinder follows the move, then yes.. replace the plugs, ALL of them. Keep the known working ones for spares and testing in the furture.

[alex.s]

i'd like to speculate an alternative diagnosis... so what happens when you draw a big load through a wire only partially connected? it tries to send the current through that smaller pipe. this heats it up from the resistance. not only does it heat the wire up but also your battery. this damages the battery and the wiring. if it went on long enough it is actually possible that you have damaged the battery wiring so much that you don't get enough current flow to properly power the bike now

pure speculation. but i would check the draw from the battery when starting

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Floki

@csmith12 I hooked it up to a car battery and it spun strong. However the bike refused to start. It's been sitting for about 2 weeks now.

On the third attempt it did slow down a tidbit

How long before that did you gas-up? Are you running ethanol-free? Has the tank been low?

Can you get the floatbowl drains, and open them to take a look at what comes out?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by jkv45

How long before that did you gas-up? Are you running ethanol-free? Has the tank been low?

Can you get the floatbowl drains, and open them to take a look at what comes out?

Jay, we are working on an 05 R1 here. But thanks for taking some of your time.

[alex.s]

i think fuel injectors still get clogged though. just much harder since the fuel pump. but jay may actually be making a good point. might help to send some fuel cleaner in.

[Floki]

I did the water on the headers trick after I swapped them and they all steamed, but it still isn't firing on one cylinder. It sounded different though.

[Floki]

Cylinder three has water and rust under the boot.... F-word

[alex.s]

take the time while you're tehre to clean out the plug drains. sounds like you found the problem... does it run with the water removed?

[csmith12]

Imma ask the more important question. How did water get there?