Can a 250 really keep up ?

[eddiekay]

yeah, when the road bends.
First...I'm not an advanced rider. Never dragged a knee, dont even hang off the bike and the only time i lay on the tank is to see my gauges becuz i'm old and half blind. But, been on bikes since '67.
Met up with a very advanced rider a few weeks ago. The good part about riding in the winter is that the only other bikers out are hardcore and more likely to be advanced. And i meet people.
Twisted his arm a bit and he agreed to take me on his fave roads. Him...'10
FZ6, me on my ninjette. A sure sign of an advanced guy is that, although he can, he doesnt leave you in the dust...doesnt rocket away on the straights...he saves the juice for the sweepers and youre reminded that there's no substitue for horsepower and even less for skill. This dude is skilled. Seeing that he totally outclassed me he went thru the next few a bit slower and that had a good effect....I saw him do what he did and figured maybe i could do it too. Took the chance and...not to my surprise but to my enjoyment...the bike can be leaned a lot further than I had been leaning it.
Had to keep it dead center on the power band to keep up but...I was pretty excited that by keeping it running where necessary....it definitely could stay with the bigger moto....given some consideration by the bigger moto. He saw that I was kinda holding on so he upped the pace a bit and I began to see some things that this board has written about but never experienced first hand. I could get into a turn faster than the FZ, I didnt have the power to correct my line like he did and i certainly couldnt rocket out...at least not at my skill level but....the ninjette is a formidable ride. Not a giant killer but like a fly that bites at your ass...it is always there. The high point of the ride was when we entered a sweeper maybe 50 feet apart moving at 8k on my tach...a long level sweeper and we could see a long way ahead and suddenly...we were like 2 horses on a carousel...moving in a circle one ahead of the other but neither gaining nor losing the distance between. Moving fast, the roadside sliding by, the barn moving closer then passing....the world was moving while we stood still.
Well, of course we snapped back to reality and for the rest of the route I lost distance on some turns, lost distance on all straights but held my own on most twisties and enjoyed the piss outta the day. I also have an FZ6 with 29k on that saddle.but i dont ride it much sinece the ninjette.. After we stopped He asked me when i was gonna start taking the 6 out. I answered with an answer I gave before but never understood until we were on that carousel together...I'l start taking the 6 when I can ride the 250. These bikes are way beyond what most of us will ever ask them to do but...seek and you'll find.

[Gorilla25]

nice. im glad you got to experience and enjoy the twisties with a rider like that. i too had no idea how the capable the ninja was until i experienced it first hand. first experiencing the peg scraping, then its a whole new world when you hand a little off the bike ...i have yet to feel what it is like to drag my knee though.

[gt_turbo]

cool story. best place to learn is the tracks. follow the control riders or other advanced riders. they even have classroom sessions for beginners to learn all the basics. give it a try!

[cbdallas]

From everything I've read and seen, I can say that if you're on a very curvy track or road, a much bigger bike won't leave you behind on a 250.

[NDspd]

I had a bunch or busa's and gskr1000's at a track once and I would pass on the inside of them, not by much but I could pass. Now on the straights, that's a different story.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

yeah, when the road bends.
First...I'm not an advanced rider. Never dragged a knee, dont even hang off the bike and the only time i lay on the tank is to see my gauges becuz i'm old and half blind. But, been on bikes since '67.
Met up with a very advanced rider a few weeks ago. The good part about riding in the winter is that the only other bikers out are hardcore and more likely to be advanced. And i meet people.
Twisted his arm a bit and he agreed to take me on his fave roads. Him...'10
FZ6, me on my ninjette. A sure sign of an advanced guy is that, although he can, he doesnt leave you in the dust...doesnt rocket away on the straights...he saves the juice for the sweepers and youre reminded that there's no substitue for horsepower and even less for skill. This dude is skilled. Seeing that he totally outclassed me he went thru the next few a bit slower and that had a good effect....I saw him do what he did and figured maybe i could do it too. Took the chance and...not to my surprise but to my enjoyment...the bike can be leaned a lot further than I had been leaning it.
Had to keep it dead center on the power band to keep up but...I was pretty excited that by keeping it running where necessary....it definitely could stay with the bigger moto....given some consideration by the bigger moto. He saw that I was kinda holding on so he upped the pace a bit and I began to see some things that this board has written about but never experienced first hand. I could get into a turn faster than the FZ, I didnt have the power to correct my line like he did and i certainly couldnt rocket out...at least not at my skill level but....the ninjette is a formidable ride. Not a giant killer but like a fly that bites at your ass...it is always there. The high point of the ride was when we entered a sweeper maybe 50 feet apart moving at 8k on my tach...a long level sweeper and we could see a long way ahead and suddenly...we were like 2 horses on a carousel...moving in a circle one ahead of the other but neither gaining nor losing the distance between. Moving fast, the roadside sliding by, the barn moving closer then passing....the world was moving while we stood still.
Well, of course we snapped back to reality and for the rest of the route I lost distance on some turns, lost distance on all straights but held my own on most twisties and enjoyed the piss outta the day. I also have an FZ6 with 29k on that saddle.but i dont ride it much sinece the ninjette.. After we stopped He asked me when i was gonna start taking the 6 out. I answered with an answer I gave before but never understood until we were on that carousel together...I'l start taking the 6 when I can ride the 250. These bikes are way beyond what most of us will ever ask them to do but...seek and you'll find.

Just to answer the initial question. With equally skilled riders... the 250 won't keep up with a middle weight or liter bike from point A to point B unless that rider wants you to keep up.

[blink]

Throwing a 600 into corners isn't as hard as people here say.
Or **rephrase**: The gap between throwing the 250 and a 600 into a corner isn't that big.
UNLESS you are going to the track and racing on the track, I'm not talking about that though. That is very different and requires different arguments, I'm not experience on track so won't bother. Plus you have to remember there are many different factors to that also.

[blink]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Just to answer the initial question. With equally skilled riders... the 250 won't keep up with a middle weight or liter bike from point A to point B unless that rider wants you to keep up.

[akima]

Great read. You have an exciting writing style. I LOL'd when I read "only time i lay on the tank is to see my gauges becuz i'm old and half blind."

I haven't ridden with experienced riders yet or even ridden that hard. I want too one day. It sounds amazing.

[CC Cowboy]

You probably ran into Dave Roper! He's a Hicksville guy. Crazy looking but rides like a banshee.

[eddiekay]

CC....nope...this was up around bear Mountain...Hicksville is where I bought the FZ though.
See..I guess i didnt say it but...after all these years....and this is the kicker for me...after all these years ...doing that sweeper with the fast guy and staying exactly with him...like i said...2 horses on a carousel...was like walking in space. Somebody mentioned track days and track school....man, all my life I said that was for rich boys and racer wannabes....my opinion has changed. When i first came to this board, listening to KK, suggestions by CC and a bunch of other guys i finally put a wrench to my bike.after like 40 years, I finally did something more than pull the chain. Chasing this dude around he gave me a little taste of what it's like to go fast. I know all this stuff comes across as some guy trying to be a philosper or a poet or something but the idea is that after I thought I'd done all I wanted to do..the bike showed me more. Kinda like reaching down a blouse and finding that, in addition to what's supposed to be there, there's 2 cans of cold beer.

[94fiveohvert]

i'm so glad you ended that with cans of beer.

[csmith12]

Go for it! The track is where its at sir! A safer and legal place to ride it like you really wanna. And there are plenty of fast peeps to follow. Get with a control rider and have a blast.

[eddiekay]

yeah...I gotta give it up...not like I think I'd ever be competitive but I'm never too old to start.....do they allow seeing eye dogs to run along side you ? How about canes and walkers ?
OK...metro NY boys...where's a track, y'know...besides the subways.

[kyrider]

I love my lil bike. She is great on gas and can get me from point A to B in about as good a time as my SUV. I ride mine for pleasure and the 250r is all I need right now.

[Clearlynotstefan]

Honestly, you need to determine what "Bigger bike" is...
Most of this community seems to act like if it's not a 250, it's a 'busa.

If your considering 600's, then no, a 250 can't keep up..corners or otherwise.
A gsxr 600's curb weight is less then 50 lbs heavier then a 250, with a MUCH better suspension, front and rear, better brakes, better everything. I'm not ninja hating, I ride a 250 and a gsxr and love them both, but I've never met a corner I couldn't take faster on the gsxr, and I've hit a lot of twisties on both.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

after I thought I'd done all I wanted to do..the bike showed me more. Kinda like reaching down a blouse and finding that, in addition to what's supposed to be there, there's 2 cans of cold beer.

best analogy ever

It's awesome what these bikes CAN do. That being said, a 600 CAN do more. maybe they don't FEEL so fast as the 250 in turns, but they certainly can just ROCKET out of turns. I still stand by my previous statements that on a surface that is all all curves, the 250 can best a 600. Most of that lies with the riders, but it's been shown that the 250 can enter and exit turns just as fast as a 600.



on a side note, and 2011 R6 only weighs 417 with fuel (according to wikipedia). not that big of a difference

[Havok]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Go for it! The track is where its at sir! A safer and legal place to ride it like you really wanna. And there are plenty of fast peeps to follow. Get with a control rider and have a blast.

What he said, serious. I did my first trackday last week and it was the best thing i have ever done on two wheels. You will be doing things on your bike by the end of the day that you never thought you could do, The 250 was a blast on the track. Its an aspect of the bike you will never get on public roads.

As for a 250 keeping up with 600s most of it depends on rider skill, take someone experienced on a 250 someone not as experienced on lets say and r6 the guy on the 250 will most likely be faster. Its more rider experience then it is the bike, if you are good and skilled you will get a 125 around a track or corner faster then most people. The turns the ninja owns bigger bikes in are the low speed turns, the ones where the power of the bigger bikes gets negated. That is where how small and flickable with that tiny cam the ninjette shines. But for the most part a 600 will get around faster then the 250. My question is so what? There are faster bikes in the corner then the 250, doesnt take away the fact that the 250 is a freaking blast to ride, makes a great commuter, a decent solo sport tourer and is fun as hell on the track and in the twisties. No need to try and sell it as just as fast or faster in corners then anything lol.

[randy328]

Granted that the track is different, I'll throw an observation:

I have both a 600RR and the 250 that I race. We use GPS laptimers. I can overlay a laptime graphic from the 600 and one from the 250. The corner speeds are almost identical (entry and exit), though on certain corners, the 250 is faster (a double chicane most commonly). The 600, of course, can keep accelerating coming out of the turns on the straights where the Ninja tops out. The fastest I have ever managed to get the 250 up to is 91 mph, while the 600 has hit more than 40 mph faster.

Bottom line, as many have said, with a skilled rider in the curves and short straights where you never get past 80 mph or so, the Ninja will keep up with (or surpass) lots of bigger bikes. When the straights get longer, or the curves get faster and faster, the 250 falls behind (for instance, at one track there is a high speed sweeper we take at 125+ mph. Obviously, the Ninja is going to fall way behind on a sweeper like that).

I seriously have way more fun racing the Ninja, though. Even if I do throw it down from time to time.

[Major_Paine]

riders with same skill on two bikes, nope because of the limitations of the bike. however, rider ability definitely says a lot once you hit the twisties.

we hit some tight corners on the way to big bear and i lost a few of the guys behind me for a little. i am not saying that im better in experience. far from it. i think it was because my tires are smaller, and my wheel base is shorter. makes it easier to lean etc.

[Sinister]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

best analogy ever

I still stand by my previous statements that on a surface that is all all curves, the 250 can best a 600.

If this were true MotoGP teams would save millions by just slapping a 600cc into a 250 chassis and not doing any r&d into advanced chassis and suspension design.



If you "beat" or even keep up with a rider on a 600 when you are out riding, be proud because its simply that you're a better rider.

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by Sinister

If you "beat" or even keep up with a rider on a 600 when you are out riding, be proud because its simply that you're a better rider.

Sarcasm?

The 250 is very light and very forgiving and a bigger bike just takes more finesse and getting use to. Just because you can keep up with a 600 on a 250 does not equate you with being a better rider. Just trying to keep some egos in check.

[akima]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

do they allow seeing eye dogs to run along side you ?

... OH NO! Lassy, low sided!!

[ally99]

Nice post. I agree, our bikes are F-U-N in the twisties! We'll get left as we are accelerating out of the corner, but we can turn in and keep up with them easily mid-turn. Sounds like an incredible ride!

[eddiekay]

So....filled with dreams of being handed a trophy with beer flowing out of it on my first track day I casually looked into with the cost would be:
ABOUT $400....DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT TO YOU RACERS ????
i'M in metro NY so I'm guessing the guy who told me that was talking maybe Pocono or someplace in CT. I wouldnt rent a bike or rent anything

[csmith12]

$400, What does that get you? Lemme guess.. 2 days + 1 day of riding school? If so that is a pretty average deal.

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

The 250 is very light and very forgiving and a bigger bike just takes more finesse and getting use to. Just because you can keep up with a 600 on a 250 does not equate you with being a better rider. Just trying to keep some egos in check.

Actually, it kinda does mean you're a better rider. I was (on my 250) behind a guy a few weeks agon on an older 600+ whatever in my favorite canyon. The guy was going kinda slow but then he noticed me behind him and stepped it up a bit. Within a few turns I could tell he was at his limit becuase he was getting sloppy. Meanwhile I was not at the limit and was keeping up while still riding nice and clean.

One thing I've done after doing a few track days is to ride slower on the streets and in the canyons. There's no need to push, because I know what the bike can do, and what I can do. On several different bikes, not just the 250. The canyon rides are for relaxing. There's no "rush" to be had anymore taking a 55MPH corner at 80+, even though I certainly could.

Many moons ago when I was a noob, I got passed by an old guy on some vintage bike with skinny a$$ tires in the canyon. Was his bike biggger/faster than mine? No, he was a better rider. Rider skill in the twisties can absolutely offset the HP deficit between a 250 and "bigger" bikes.

[eddiekay]

I think Jinx makes a very realistic point
"One thing I've done after doing a few track days is to ride slower on the streets and in the canyons. There's no need to push, because I know what the bike can do, and what I can do. "
I dont know many advanced riders but the few I know do not blast thru the roads unless they're playin'
The guy I've been chasing is advanced and he chuggs along the straits @ 55 but flies thru the turns when I'm behind him...yeah...I enlisted him as a guru and he's showing me how it's done. As to the track days cost....IF the site I checked is offering 2 days, not 1, I'm sure it's worth the money....but they dont get specific about costs. Still...$400 will buy me new tires AND a back protector AND maybe even boots ? Maybe ?
OK....for you track day guys....my guru made a comment:
You're 100 times more likely to fall on the track but it's only half as bad as falling on the street......(roads we run are clean, nicely paved, very little traffic and next to nothing to crash into...farmland mainly) Are you 100 times more likely to crash on the track. I mean, I understand that the track is where you push yourself because it is safer.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

So....filled with dreams of being handed a trophy with beer flowing out of it on my first track day I casually looked into with the cost would be:
ABOUT $400....DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT TO YOU RACERS ????
i'M in metro NY so I'm guessing the guy who told me that was talking maybe Pocono or someplace in CT. I wouldnt rent a bike or rent anything

Originally Posted by eddiekay

I think Jinx makes a very realistic point
"One thing I've done after doing a few track days is to ride slower on the streets and in the canyons. There's no need to push, because I know what the bike can do, and what I can do. "
I dont know many advanced riders but the few I know do not blast thru the roads unless they're playin'
The guy I've been chasing is advanced and he chuggs along the straits @ 55 but flies thru the turns when I'm behind him...yeah...I enlisted him as a guru and he's showing me how it's done. As to the track days cost....IF the site I checked is offering 2 days, not 1, I'm sure it's worth the money....but they dont get specific about costs. Still...$400 will buy me new tires AND a back protector AND maybe even boots ? Maybe ?
OK....for you track day guys....my guru made a comment:
You're 100 times more likely to fall on the track but it's only half as bad as falling on the street......(roads we run are clean, nicely paved, very little traffic and next to nothing to crash into...farmland mainly) Are you 100 times more likely to crash on the track. I mean, I understand that the track is where you push yourself because it is safer.

The tracks around you would be in South Jersey (New Jersey Motorsports Park), New Hampshire (Loudon), West Virginia (Summit Point), and Pennsylvania (Pocono). Too bad Bridgehampton isn't still around. That was a great track to ride.

You are less likely to crash at a track (in my opinion). As in street riding, if you ride over your head, you are more likely to crash. If you ride within your limits you will be fine. As in street riding, you still have to worry about the other idiots. There will be others who think because they are on a track they can ride over their ability.

[randy328]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

OK....for you track day guys....my guru made a comment:
You're 100 times more likely to fall on the track but it's only half as bad as falling on the street......(roads we run are clean, nicely paved, very little traffic and next to nothing to crash into...farmland mainly) Are you 100 times more likely to crash on the track. I mean, I understand that the track is where you push yourself because it is safer.

As a trackday instructor, in the Beginner level (what we call Level 1 down here) you should be less likely to crash then on the street. The way we teach, you really shouldn't crash, and I tell students that there is no reason to crash today. You'll still have a blast, but we teach how to control the bike, appropriate speeds, braking, cornering, etc. You can push yourself, but it is a more controlled environment. We say never ride more than 85-90% of your potential at a trackday. Learn the basics and get smoother; concentrate on smooth and fast comes with it. If you try to jump up too fast, your skill level can't handle it.

In a race, you are pushing for 100% (and when you go over, that's when you crash).

Just my 2 cents.

[Reph]

I have been looking for a track day near Biloxi, MS, but have not been too successful finding one. If anyone can point me in the right direction (websites, genearl areas) I would greatly appreciate it.

[eddiekay]

cc and randy speak from experience.
OK...how's about this....how does one know when they're near their limit ?
How do you guys know...when you see other riders, that they're at their limit, especially for randy the instructor or CC too cause i know you got miles in the saddle

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

cc and randy speak from experience.
OK...how's about this....how does one know when they're near their limit ?
How do you guys know...when you see other riders, that they're at their limit, especially for randy the instructor or CC too cause i know you got miles in the saddle

They aren't smooth.

If you watch MotoGP you will notice that they look like they are going slow because they are so smooth.

At a track day it is more important to feel comfortable then freaking yourself out. Concentrate on what you're doing and hit your marks and you will get better (and faster) quickly. You don't ride around a track willy nilly. There is usually one correct line. The closer you can ride that line the better your times will be.

When you follow the instructor notice marks on the track that you can use for reference points. You can then use those points to adjust your braking, turning, and accelleration. Once you learn the track, try to stay away from other riders so you can concentrate on your own riding instead of worrying about get taken out by someone else.

On track days I like to let everyone go out in front of me and then when I see the first riders coming on to the front straight I enter the track. This gives me a comfortable space in front of me to ride my own line and pace since everyone is behind me.

Track days are not race days. I try to avoid other riders and when I do come up on someone I always pass without freaking them out.

[randy328]

^+1

On a first time track day, we teach the Line, body position, corner entry speed (which takes care of throttle and braking), and exit speed (which is throttle again).

If you can't stay on the line, nothing else will work. Proper BP, throttle, and braking just won't work off the line. Most commonly, you run off the track.

The org I work for, we actually go out and mark on the ground with tape the entry point, clip point, and exit point for each corner (as we progress through the day, we encourage students to find their own reference points as the tape will slowly disappear). First session out, we do what we cal a "Round Robin" where at a low speed we follow the line with 4 or 5 students following, rotating who is directly behind the instructor each lap. We video the students with GoPros every subsequent session, and can watch and critique in class sessions (the instructor always stays on the line, so if the student isn't directly in front, they know where they are off).

Initially, we stress the line most. Smooth and on-line will become fast and flowing; erratic and off-line becomes crash. We also do classroom after every session; some orgs only do one or two classes, we do 7. We talk about street issues and how they can relate to what they are learning on the track, and how the track helps street riding.

We talk alot about the very question you had, when do you know you are at your limit? If you scare yourself, you're stressing out, you almost crash, you're erratic, you are getting close to the limit. Knowing what the bike can do, and then starting off slow and incrementing up (baby steps) will get you to your 99% limit. How long? Some folks take years, others quicker, some stay at 80 or 90% and enjoy the fun of not pushing it.

[TheTopher]

Lots of good info here, really enjoyed reading it.

Carry on, gents!

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Sinister

If you "beat" or even keep up with a rider on a 600 when you are out riding, be proud because its simply that you're a better rider.

true and false. riding the same twisty roads on two different bikes back to back (ninja 250R and a CBR600F3) is not the same experience at all. The 250 just bounds through turns and feels so light and flickable while it does. The 600 rockets out of the apex, but feels like you have to constantly tell it what to do, and muscle it around and take turn-in's slower than the 250. In tight turns, and constantly back and forth and back and forth roads, that means the 250 is much easier to be smooth and quick on. So yes, rider skill is a large part of the equation; a good rider is a good rider on any bike they ride. But at the same time, the 250 is just so effortless that in some situations, it is easier to be fast on.

The high speed sweepers and straight aways are a totally different story though, and that is because of the engine and the quality of the suspension components and frame that the the 250's just don't have because of the price point.

[Clearlynotstefan]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

true and false. riding the same twisty roads on two different bikes back to back (ninja 250R and a CBR600F3) is not the same experience at all. The 250 just bounds through turns and feels so light and flickable while it does. The 600 rockets out of the apex, but feels like you have to constantly tell it what to do, and muscle it around and take turn-in's slower than the 250. In tight turns, and constantly back and forth and back and forth roads, that means the 250 is much easier to be smooth and quick on. So yes, rider skill is a large part of the equation; a good rider is a good rider on any bike they ride. But at the same time, the 250 is just so effortless that in some situations, it is easier to be fast on.

The high speed sweepers and straight aways are a totally different story though, and that is because of the engine and the quality of the suspension components and frame that the the 250's just don't have because of the price point.

So suspension quality only effects high speed sweepers?

I can't speak for everyone, but as an owner of a modern supersport, and a ninjette, I know for a fact I can take ANY corner faster on the gsxr, be it a 15 mph decreasing radius, or a 130mph sweeper. For me, it's not even close. I felt the ninjette ready to lose traction 20mph slower then I can comfortably take the same turn on the supersport. I'm almost getting tired of this ninjette wins the corners discussion. The ninjette is a great bike, I love mine, but it terms of performance, it simply doesn't match a supersport. That's why it's not a supersport, and thats why It's $4000 cheaper then a supersport. It's almost like people don't appreciate what the ninjette is, because they're busy projecting what they want it to be. Your bike gets 70mpg. It's comfortable as all hell. It's practically free to insure, but no, it can NOT keep up with a 600. Period.

I promise, I don't mean that to be offensive, and I'm not trolling anyone. I'm aware I'm on a 250 site, and you're gonna jump down my throat. My gsxr is something like 40 lbs heavier then the ninjette, on a far superior suspension. It is just as flick-able, and doesn't feel as fragile, it's traction destroys the ninjette. It's silly to think that a bike bred to be a comfortable efficient machine can corner better then a bike designed to corner.

[Alex]

I disagree. The cost of the suspension isn't the only factor in how fast or comfortable you can be on the street. The suspension on supersports in fact *do* hold them back on a variety of real-world roads. A suspension that is optimized for the track does not work as well on very twisty, sometimes bumpy, and sometimes unpredictable fun roads. That's the fun in a good-handling small-displacement bike in finding areas just like that.

And even on track, if you follow any of the threads in the "ninjettes at speed" area, data-logging shows the ninjettes carrying similar speed through many corners for folks that own both it and larger displacement machines. This isn't hyperbole, it's data.

The suspension on my BMW (Ohlins front/rear) cost only a bit less than an entire ninjette. The suspension on my ZX-10R (Ohlins rear, Racetech front) has even higher-end components, and makes it a completely dialed-in high-speed machine. But even with the adjustment knocked back quite a bit, tight bumpy roads can often be taken as fast on the 250.

The last thing to keep in mind is that the 250's suspension was significantly upgraded from the pre-gen to new-gen bikes. Assuming that everyone's 250 performs like your 10-year old pregen isn't valid, and a spirited ride on a good-condition modern version might surprise you.

[Clearlynotstefan]

Originally Posted by Alex

I disagree. The cost of the suspension isn't the only factor in how fast or comfortable you can be on the street. The suspension on supersports in fact *do* hold them back on a variety of real-world roads. A suspension that is optimized for the track does not work as well on very twisty, sometimes bumpy, and sometimes unpredictable fun roads. That's the fun in a good-handling small-displacement bike in finding areas just like that.

And even on track, if you follow any of the threads in the "ninjettes at speed" area, data-logging shows the ninjettes carrying similar speed through many corners for folks that own both it and larger displacement machines. This isn't hyperbole, it's data.

The suspension on my BMW (Ohlins front/rear) cost only a bit less than an entire ninjette. The suspension on my ZX-10R (Ohlins rear, Racetech front) has even higher-end components, and makes it a completely dialed-in high-speed machine. But even with the adjustment knocked back quite a bit, tight bumpy roads can often be taken as fast on the 250.

The last thing to keep in mind is that the 250's suspension was significantly upgraded from the pre-gen to new-gen bikes. Assuming that everyone's 250 performs like your 10-year old pregen isn't valid, and a spirited ride on a good-condition modern version might surprise you.

I'm not referring to track riding, nor am I referring to a BMW that weighs 600 lbs, or a zx10r which is significantly heavier then a 636 or equivalent mid power supersport. 600 Supersports share the flickability of the ninjette. I've ridden the new-gen through twisties, it's a much needed improvement over the pre-gen, the fork-dive was absurd on the old model. None the less, I stand by my opinion that a 600cc bike properly tuned can take a ninjette in anything beyond parking lot speeds. I consider myself a pretty skilled rider, I have members here that can attest to that. I'm not telling you no one can keep up with me on a 250. I'm telling you my riding my gsxr is faster then my riding any 250 I've ridden, including the honda.

[Alex]

I still disagree. You're overstating the capabilities of a supersport in all conditions, and you're understating the capabilities of the 250. A statement like:

Originally Posted by Clearlynotstefan

For me, it's not even close. I felt the ninjette ready to lose traction 20mph slower then I can comfortably take the same turn on the supersport.

means either your ninjette is in quite poor condition, or this:

Originally Posted by Clearlynotstefan

I consider myself a pretty skilled rider

isn't objectively accurate. With decent tires on both, midcorner speed on either bike should be neck and neck, and the bumpier the surface, the less advantage the supersport will have. Put another year and another 10k miles on the 600, spend some of it on the track, then go back to a well-sorted 250 and you may be surprised what the bike (both bikes, in fact) are really able to do. The following comment from just a few posts above isn't atypical:

Originally Posted by randy328

I have both a 600RR and the 250 that I race. We use GPS laptimers. I can overlay a laptime graphic from the 600 and one from the 250. The corner speeds are almost identical (entry and exit), though on certain corners, the 250 is faster (a double chicane most commonly). The 600, of course, can keep accelerating coming out of the turns on the straights where the Ninja tops out.

The massive advantage in power and moderate advantage in braking of a supersport will allow equivalently-skilled riders to ease away in many street conditions. But the more frequent the corners, the more varied the corners, the bumpier the surface, and there are many places where those advantages can't be realized, and a well-ridden 250 can be particularly capable.