Upshifting during left hand cornering

[Sirref]

Recently I have discovered that I am a lot more fearless with blind right handers than I am with somewhat open left handers. The reason is not because of vision or actual fear it is simply that I feel as though I can open the throttle more on a right hand corner than a left hand corner. When hanging off and cornering with everything you have body positioning wise with your knee barely off the ground by a few inches supporting all of your weight on the balls of your feet how could you possibly move your inside foot, particularly to shift. I find no problem upshifting on corner entry when my weight is mostly on the right peg but when it's on the left peg I find that I can't upshift until I straighten out a bit and pull myself back onto the bike. I've been trying to fix the problem by entering left handers a gear up but then I'm out of the power band and the bike feels like it's just lugging behind at 6-7k rpm in comparison to the 8-9k rpm that I can enter corners with on right handers. Is there any other solution or technique that can help or should I just accept that I can't blast through left handers like I want without fear of hitting the rev limiter?

[rojoracing53]

GP Shifting

[CycleCam303]

I'm a little unsure how to answer this. Generally the reason racers switch to gp styled shifting (1 up 5 down) is so when cranked over in a long increasing radius corner, its easier to shift by pressing your toes down without the boot getting caught on the tarmac or the like. Color me weird but I actually don't like gp shift pattern despite the benefits. I'm a dirt rider at heart I guess.

But is that what you're really dealing with? I'm not so sure. On the 250 in a street situation I can think of only a couple places where I wish I had 2k more revs. That's more of a racing concept. Sometimes the track demands you make a choice of holding onto a gear or shifting up for a mere second to bang down an extra gear before the corner. Remember that when you crank a the bike over your gear ratio drops thus raising your rpms. You gotta compensate for that. You can fan the clutch to pop the bike into the powerband but that seems like more of a dirt technique than a helpful street one.

Really if you're just talking about street riding... This shouldn't be an issue. If you can't crack a shift off while turning, which on the ninjette you risk upsetting an already unsettled chassis, maybe you need to slow down. Or are you not sitting in the seat at all. Use it. If you're putting all your weight on the inside peg and you can't brace yourself with anything else, what happens when you hit a bump mid corner? Do you almost fall off? And the other extreme. Why do you need 5k worth of rpm range throughout a corner? Carry more corner speed so you don't have to make up for so much. You shouldn't be needing to gain that much more speed from apex to exit while being leaned over that far. That doesn't make sense to me.

I'd have to see you ride. There might be more of a self inflicted issue.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

GP Shifting

Hey leave your simple answers out of my wall of texts!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Really if you're just talking about street riding... This shouldn't be an issue. If you can't crack a shift off while turning, which on the ninjette you risk upsetting an already unsettled chassis, maybe you need to slow down. Or are you not sitting in the seat at all. Use it. If you're putting all your weight on the inside peg and you can't brace yourself with anything else, what happens when you hit a bump mid corner? Do you almost fall off? And the other extreme. Why do you need 5k worth of rpm range throughout a corner? Carry more corner speed so you don't have to make up for so much. You shouldn't be needing to gain that much more speed from apex to exit while being leaned over that far. That doesn't make sense to me.

when I hit a bump mid corner it generally shakes me a bit as well as unsettling the bike but in my experience I get through it just fine by adding more throttle there's little risk of falling off as I'm balancing on both pegs though there is a considerable amount of weight bias on the inside peg despite actively trying to push down on the outside peg more. as for the 5k rpm range needed, I'm talking primarily about sweeping turns because with tighter corners I have exited the corner before reaching the rev limiter. the problem is purely left handed sweeping corners where I stay leaned over for extended periods of time.
If I had a gopro or something like that I'd be able to show you but there is one corner near me in particular that gets me. this corner is basically a somewhat open left hander followed by another left hand corner which has a downhill decreasing radius with no time or ability to straighten out at speed before entering the second one. The problem crops up in other similar corners but this one is the worst by far as it is the longest left hand corner that I stay leaned through. If it were a right hand corner I would simply shift but I (largely off of my body positioning?) have a lot of trouble moving the ball of my inside foot away from the peg mid corner. I'll see if I can get a picture of the corner as maybe that can help.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Really if you're just talking about street riding... This shouldn't be an issue.

I agree with this.

You should be able to plant a good deal of weight on the outside peg as well as on the inner thigh against the tank. If you are putting so much weight on the inside peg you can't shift and it's not because of clearance issues...

I'd hazard a guess and say you are doing something incorrect.

[Lychee]

Could you put more weight on your outer foot if you lock your heel against the rearset heel guard?

[Old Lemon]

you should take me on some of those roads that you speak of

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

............I've been trying to fix the problem by entering left handers a gear up but then I'm out of the power band and the bike feels like it's just lugging behind at 6-7k rpm in comparison to the 8-9k rpm that I can enter corners with on right handers..........

If you are doing that in public roads, slow down, it is very dangerous for others and for yourself.

If you are doing that in the track, there is no reason for reduction of rpms'; those should be increasing as you keep good throttle control.
You are not braking all the way to the apex; are you?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Hey leave your simple answers out of my wall of texts!

Hey don't get pissed at me if people tend to read my cliff notes vs your encyclopedia.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Old Lemon

you should take me on some of those roads that you speak of

come up to northern harford county sometime, I'd love to show you around. The back roads here are fun. rocks state park, jarrettsville rd, norrisville rd, harkins rd, garrett rd, and so on. I'm fairly close to all of them so I am a bit bias and they aren't really canyons but they're fun for sure.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Motofool

If you are doing that in public roads, slow down, it is very dangerous for others and for yourself.

If you are doing that in the track, there is no reason for reduction of rpms'; those should be increasing as you keep good throttle control.
You are not braking all the way to the apex; are you?

nah I tend to start braking early then turn in while off the brakes and off the throttle then crack the throttle open the moment that I feel I can and continuously open it up more throughout the corner til it's pinned. at least that's what I go for I rarely let off the throttle but that's because it's a 300 and not a 600 or 1000 so I'm only really going like 80mph

[csmith12]

This is track right? Some sweepers are huge and you may feel the need to shift. You got 4 choices.

GP Shift
Enter the corner hotter and in a higher gear
Change gearing to eliminate/change the shift point
Us your bp to decrease the lean needed to manage the corner yet still shift freely

Your riding a 300 right? I know from my own riding, you can most likely go faster. Unless the bike is complaining, just try to slowly build up carrying more speed through the corner so you can be in a higher gear. If that is not possible, then try some of the other ideas.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is track right? Some sweepers are huge and you may feel the need to shift. You got 4 choices.

GP Shift
Enter the corner hotter and in a higher gear
Change gearing to eliminate/change the shift point
Us your bp to decrease the lean needed to manage the corner yet still shift freely

Your riding a 300 right? I know from my own riding, you can most likely go faster. Unless the bike is complaining, just try to slowly build up carrying more speed through the corner so you can be in a higher gear. If that is not possible, then try some of the other ideas.

unfortunately it's not track as I am a poor college student, though it is mostly on back roads where I rarely see cars and I stay within my lane 100% of the time unless passing.

entering the corner hotter isn't exactly something that appeals to me as I already feel as though I am entering the corners around 80% of my maximum ability any more and I run the risk of making stupid mistakes and distracting myself from learning and improving.

GP shift and changing the gearing are things that I am interested in doing that may help eliminate the problem but I don't feel as though they'll make it go away forever, I'd prefer a technique approach if possible.
as for BP, I am already using it to decrease lean for the corner. one butt-cheek hanging off the seat, kiss the mirror, and knee out. however with my current BP I find that a large amount of weight is on the inside peg, what should I put my weight on to avoid this instead? even with my outside leg hooked onto the tank I don't feel comfortable with moving my inside foot to shift at speed as I feel as though it will unsettle my BP and take away from my stability.

yes I'm on a 300 and I do agree that I could definitely go faster though that would put me closer to my limits. Honestly I should be on a track but I have no money for the track gear/track days/tires/etc

[choneofakind]

Your other option is to make a really smooth clutchless upshift. It has to be smooth and fast, or else it will upset things.

You should carry weight on your outside foot, not inside foot. This will 1) stand the bike up a little and 2) help you lock your outside knee onto the tank for support. It will also free up your inside foot for a shift.

I know you said it's not as fun to come in a gear up because that puts you at 6-7k instead of 8k. But have you considered rolling on more gradually/later? that would also delay your upshift until you're standing the bike up. On street, I tend to turn in late and wait until apex (which would be late for a late turn-in) to roll on.

[Lychee]

Be careful buddy.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

2) help you lock your outside knee onto the tank for support. It will also free up your inside foot for a shift.

Knee into the tank is great for the anchor but don't forget the knee doesn't act alone to lock you on.

So your pivoting on the inner peg while cornering. The ball of your foot hurt after a long ride? That is a sign of too much weight. The inner thigh of the outside also has much work to do and can the bear much of the weight to lighten the load off the inner peg. You will have to play around with your seating position to find your sweet spot. You will know when you find it because the bike will be doing most of the work and you will be free to put as much weight as you want on either peg at will.

Be safe out there brah!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Knee into the tank is great for the anchor but don't forget the knee doesn't act alone to lock you on.

So your pivoting on the inner peg while cornering. The ball of your foot hurt after a long ride? That is a sign of too much weight. The inner thigh of the outside also has much work to do and can the bear much of the weight to lighten the load off the inner peg. You will have to play around with your seating position to find your sweet spot. You will know when you find it because the bike will be doing most of the work and you will be free to put as much weight as you want on either peg at will.

Be safe out there brah!

yea, the balls of both of my feet always hurt after a long or intense ride. thank you for the advice on body positioning, just goes to show how much work I have to do to improve on my basics.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

nah I tend to start braking early then turn in while off the brakes and off the throttle then crack the throttle open the moment that I feel I can and continuously open it up more throughout the corner til it's pinned. at least that's what I go for I rarely let off the throttle but that's because it's a 300 and not a 600 or 1000 so I'm only really going like 80mph

I see that you are doing this in public roads; again my best advice is don't continue doing it.
If you cannot afford track days, you cannot afford the consequences of an accident; ..............however, sorry to say, you may be running into one.

Now, for the technical part:
This are the natural steps of riding:
1) Learn to keep the balance and not to stall the engine.
2) Learn to ride.
3) Learn to ride well.
4) Learn to be safe, smooth and in total control.
5) Learn to ride at your limits and super-smooth and fast.

If you have covered steps 1 through 4 (I am still working on step 4), and you must test your limits and are going as fast as you can, then:

The acceleration along a curve should be 0.1~0,2 g; which means an increment of around 3 mph per each second on the turn.

Copied from A Twist of the Wrist 2:

"Rule Number One
Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn.
At the point where the correct transfer of weight is achieved by the rider (10 to 20 percent rearward) by using the throttle, any big changes in that weight distribution reduce available traction.
Once the bike is fully leaned into a turn, changes in tire load, either evenly (both wheels, most easily done in a crested road situation) or alternately (front to back, back to front, from throttle on/throttle off) must then either underweight or overweight the ideal load for that particular tire/bike combination."

According to the above statements, you should not be shifting gears during a turn: you enter with low speed, torque and rpms' and you leave with higher speed, torque and rpms'.

If the turn is soooooooooo long that you reach top rpms before it ends and you must shift gears, then be as smooth as possible, trying to keep that 40/60 weight distribution.

If the turn is not so long and you are reaching top rpms before it ends, then you are accelerating too much during the turn; hence, if your leaned rear tire doesn't slide at the end, you are entering the turn too slowly for the available traction.

Nobody cares if you ride fast or slow, your family and friends need you happy and healthy.

[OCMagnum]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I see that you are doing this in public roads; again my best advice is don't continue doing it.
If you cannot afford track days, you cannot afford the consequences of an accident; ..............however, sorry to say, you may be running into one.

Nobody cares if you ride fast or slow, your family and friends need you happy and healthy.

Words of wisdom! Advice that I need to keep telling myself everyday as I get on the bike...

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by OCMagnum

Words of wisdom! Advice that I need to keep telling myself everyday as I get on the bike...

This doesn't mean that you must quit working on the technical aspect and becoming smoother, which is the way of becoming faster and by becoming safer, which is the way of enjoying being smooth and fast for many years to come.

Never stop learning by riding !!!

[Aufitt]

If you are redlining and running out of revs mid corner then your gear selection is wrong.

[alex.s]

A) use gp shift (honestly not sure why anyone doesnt use gp shift)
B) slow down or go to a track

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

A) use gp shift (honestly not sure why anyone doesnt use gp shift)
............

Curiosities about the history of shifting patterns

[anacron]

Seems like you're shifting down one gear too many if you're running out of revs. This is really a two part problem, one of familiarity with the road/corner in question and one of knowing which gear to take that road/corner in.

It seems like you're under predicting the speed of the corner and realizing halfway through that you can go faster. 8k-9k seem too high to take a corner, as you start rolling on you only have ~3k revs to play with.

I typically enter corners around the 6k-7k mark and by the time I get to the exit I'm in position to shift up and accelerate out.

[csmith12]

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by anacron

It seems like you're under predicting the speed of the corner and realizing halfway through that you can go faster.

This is common but safer. It's better to brake too much than to try to scrub off additional speed midcorner. On SS bikes, you have to roll on power to combat the effect and just make up the difference on exit.

Let's think of this a different way then. So @Sirref, You say your riding under your limit. Excellent What skills are you working on to raise your limits? And if your limits where raised, do you think you would you still have the same problem?


HINT: How are you judging and setting corner entry speed?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is common but safer. It's better to brake too much than to try to scrub off additional speed midcorner. On SS bikes, you have to roll on power to combat the effect and just make up the difference on exit.

Let's think of this a different way then. So @Sirref, You say your riding under your limit. Excellent What skills are you working on to raise your limits? And if your limits where raised, do you think you would you still have the same problem?


HINT: How are you judging and setting corner entry speed?

I'm primarily working on body positioning (now adding in the goal of balancing weight in an improved manner to where I can freely move any body part (particularly the inside foot) around) , throttle control/roll on, as well as a constant goal of downshifting smoother while braking using 2 finger braking and blipping the throttle.
if my limits were raised I believe the problem would go away (assuming that the limits were raised in terms of better body positioning) and be replaced with some new problem for me to tackle, most likely with riding smoother or tackling my tendency to overbrake in certain situations.
As for judging and setting corner entry speed I generally go by my knowledge of the road, when I know the road I start at what I feel is a reasonable speed and slowly work my way up each time I go through it to set a consistent corner entry point and from there increase or decrease the speed until I feel confident in my ability to navigate the corner at any speed I wish, particularly the higher speeds. I never tackle a blind corner for the first time at speed as there are numerous concerns which come with doing that into unknowns.
on a road where I have never ridden it or have ridden it one or two times I tend to take corners where I can clearly see through the corner at corner entry point quickly though not fast because of my tendency to overbrake. Although often I know entering the corner that I could have entered faster I need to experience that feeling before I push it faster for some reason, I believe that overbraking before corner entry (sometimes when it isn't even necessary) is some sort of survival reaction of mine until I build up the confidence on that particular corner.

[csmith12]

Sounds like you have a decent plan. I know you said you can't afford it but I bet you could work this specific problem out in a track day or tow. Think of it as AP Street Riding. lol Try this; I believe Sport Bike Track Time gives away 10 or so track days per year to new track riders. Join their forums and enter to win one. Your chances are really good as entries are normally low. Why? Because you will learn more in 1 track day than a whole season on the street.

Originally Posted by Sirref

I believe that overbraking before corner entry (sometimes when it isn't even necessary) is some sort of survival reaction of mine until I build up the confidence on that particular corner.

Indeed it is. SR #7 from K. Code's list.

[Sirref]

thank you for the heads up, though the season seems to be drawing to a close, I'll definitely sign up for the chance to get on the track next season as I know it's where I should be at this point in my development as a rider. Hopefully I can save up enough money over the winter to get my hands on a full leather suit.

[choneofakind]

I always over brake and give that little teddy bear brake that does nothing but make me feel better. That's my use title.

[ninjamunky85]

Brakes only slow you down.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Hopefully I can save up enough money over the winter to get my hands on a full leather suit.

I believe a suit rental is included in the track day package if you win. Just need to send them sizing ahead of time to ensure they have it ready for you.

Boots, gloves, helmet and sweat are your to bring.

[quarterliter]

Not sure if this was asked previously but how does one get GP shift pattern on a 250? Specifically on a pregen? Is it a simple external mod or is it more complex than that?

[choneofakind]

On a pregen, just flip the linkage

[anacron]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

On a pregen, just flip the linkage

Same for the 300, but need to cut a notch in the engine cover.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I believe a suit rental is included in the track day package if you win. Just need to send them sizing ahead of time to ensure they have it ready for you.

Boots, gloves, helmet and sweat are your to bring.

damn, it really is the full package. that's more helpful than I imagined. let's hope that the contest really is low entry high chance as a track day is exactly what I need in terms of skill/technique development.

[JA-Moo]

Work on your weighing, you should be able to move your inside foot around in any corner. Your body weight should be supported by your outside leg and foot.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

Brakes only slow you down.

the cow says: "Moo."

[JA-Moo]

What does the fox say......