Braking in a turn while going downhill

[GreatScott]

Something that was stated over and over again in the MSF course was not to use your brakes while turning. Instead, we were instructed to brake before entering the turn and accelerate out.

That's all fine and good until I got a little more road experience under me and was going down a large hill where a stop sign was waiting for me after a large turn. I wasn't going all that fast, got the bike vertical and braked but I know that won't be the case every time.

So braking in a turn... how is it done safely? When is it appropriate? Should I tell her to get tested?

[dcj13]

Like you said, sometimes you gotta brake when turning. Do it judiciously. And who is the "her" you're referring to?

[Worldtraveller]

That's one of the many 'general guideline' type things that really isn't (and can't be) a hard, fast rule.

There are many places, both on the street and on the track, where braking downhill into a turn is required.

Both the tracks I race on have downhill braking into turns.

[GreatScott]

Is there some magic to it to keep my back end from being thrown out? When I'm told that my tire will lose traction if I use the brake in a turn I take it quite literally.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by dcj13

Like you said, sometimes you gotta brake when turning. Do it judiciously. And who is the "her" you're referring to?

I can only assume his bike

braking while turning is something that can be done but isn't ideal, you want to add brakes progressively and smoothly. When you're straight up and down you can really jump on the brakes super aggressively but you can't be as aggressive while you're leaned over (with brakes or throttle (throttle referring to more powerful bikes))

braking downhill is another issue entirely, you'll notice that the rear will feel a bit lighter than normal braking but that's about it.

combining the two is very much so not advisable despite the fact that it can be done, it's a rare situation where you can theoretically lose the rear under braking before you tuck the front.
My biggest suggestion, just go slower before you get to the corner in question or head to a track that has that type of corner and ask more experienced riders how they approach it.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by GreatScott

Is there some magic to it to keep my back end from being thrown out? When I'm told that my tire will lose traction if I use the brake in a turn I take it quite literally.

that is not a rule of thumb, the front CAN lose traction if you brake in a corner but it doesn't necessarily happen the moment you hop on the brakes.

@Motofool I can't seem to find the keith code link I'm thinking of but I'm sure you have it somewhere or another good article on the subject

[Worldtraveller]

Generally, you want to scoot your butt back on the seat, be smooth on the front and rear (downhill, I will usually gently apply the rear first to settle the bike a bit), just be smooth on your inputs and you'll be fine.

[GreatScott]

Originally Posted by dcj13

And who is the "her" you're referring to?

A) My mistress
B) Your mom
C) Your sister
D) Random stranger
E) ???

I like to have fun, haha. No offense intended.

[csmith12]

Overall, downhill changes nothing from the cornering perspective aside you will have slightly more weight on the front. Corner as normal, adjust entry speed as needed and make sure you visual skills are up to snuff for the downhills (waaaaayyyyy important).

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by GreatScott

Something that was stated over and over again in the MSF course was not to use your brakes while turning. Instead, we were instructed to brake before entering the turn and accelerate out.

That's all fine and good until I got a little more road experience under me and was going down a large hill where a stop sign was waiting for me after a large turn. I wasn't going all that fast, got the bike vertical and braked but I know that won't be the case every time.

So braking in a turn... how is it done safely? When is it appropriate? Should I tell her to get tested?

Slow & progressive on the brakes, I'd go with rear first (DO NOT ****ING STAMP ON IT) then add some front if needs be. You can ease off the front if you're happy with your pace, DO NOT let off the rear with the front applied.

As for when is it appropriate: when you're about to smash into something if you don't stop. (that or practising your braking downhill turns, start out easy with flat ones using the rear brake to stabilise the bike)

The forces on a tyre can total up to 100% before it loses grip, that can be any combination of lean, braking, poor surface or acceleration. If they go over 100% you lose traction & usually go down.

If you're using 75% of your grip for lean angle on a perfect surface then you've still got a bit of room to apply brakes, but do it smoothly, as you straighten up to 50% lean you can do more braking & upright you can give it 100% braking without the tyre slipping.

Poor surfaces take away a big chunk of your total available grip. Any harsh input will multiply the force applied to the tyre.

[Skullz]

Braking while turning is a learned experience that takes quite a bit of practice to feel comfortable doing, and trail braking is a great technique to use for many situations on the street riding around. I have learned and built the strength to use one finger braking on an every day basis, so that if i were to come into a situation where i have a panic moment i can't over brake, and create a situation that may put me on the ground or over the bars from either locking it up or washing the front out from under me.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

...........@Motofool I can't seem to find the keith code link I'm thinking of but I'm sure you have it somewhere or another good article on the subject

Sorry, Ben, I am not sure about which one you refer to.

To the OP:

@GreatScott, if Geometry does not scare you, take a look at this:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=830529

........ and ask us back

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry, Ben, I am not sure about which one you refer to.

I think it was a trailbraking article that covered braking mid corner

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I think it was a trailbraking article that covered braking mid corner

It may be this thread started by @Misti:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=730748

This one started by @Gurk was very good as well:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=850551

[Sirref]

@Motofool

it was the @Gurk one! Thank you man
@GreatScott the second link in the last post by motofool is really informative on this subject

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

@Motofool

it was the @Gurk one! Thank you man
..........

You are welcome

[GreatScott]

Wow, a real wealth of knowledge! I read all three links and couldn't be more happy with the information. It gives me a much better visual of what is happening. I'll find a parking lot this weekend to feel out accelerating in a radius.

Thanks to everyone for commenting.

[296Virgins]

Braking in a turn isn't SUGGESTED. But sometimes you have to, I was bombing this hill in the bay and there was turn after turn, if you feel you need to adjust your speed use a combination of just slightly tapping your rear brake and clutch and throttle control... don't brake throughout the entire turn and never use your front brake, there can be serious consequences.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by 296Virgins

if you feel you need to adjust your speed use a combination of just slightly tapping your rear brake and clutch and throttle control... don't brake throughout the entire turn and never use your front brake, there can be serious consequences.

Can you elaborate further? Are you advising to use your rear brake and clutch in a downhill corner if you're in too hot? Throttle control, I agree, absolutely. Good throttle control will keep you from ever having to use either brake midcorner at all, which is truly your best option riding street corners. Good throttle control means you enter the corner at the right speed so that you can constantly roll on the throttle throughout the turn, which stabilizes the bike and conserves traction by getting the bike to its correct 60/40 weigh distribution. Never use front brake? It's the brake of choice for most folks who trail brake.
Simply stating a list of random, conflicting phrases isn't a very clear piece of advice. Elaborate on your points, if you will.

[Rifleman]

no "turn" thread can be truly complete until it talks about target fixing and "looking through"

Yes, all the above is wonderful info and perhaps I can add just a bit by saying to think of your front tire as having "100 units of traction" When you lean the bike some of those units of traction are needed to push the tire around the corner... the rest, in theory could be used if braking was needed... only problem is that there is no "units of traction" gauge on the dash... how do you know when you go over 100 units, the asphalt comes up and kisses you. Now also understand that when you are upright and you apply the front brake... you are pressing it into the ground and thus you may have 150 units of traction now... or maybe 300... that is why MSF teaches you to upright and then panic stop, you can really haul it down when upright.

so, what traction isn't being consumed by the turn can be used to brake...

and has been said, gentle and smooth on the front, favor the rear if you must brake in a turn... engine and clutch as a brake is tricky but will help too if you know what you are doing.

but... and this is a big but...

8 times out of 10 the bike will make the corner, yes I know you think it won't, but it will. 8 times out of 10 the engineering and tire tech, the suspension, will hold...

LOOK THROUGH THE TURN, look at the exit, lean more, look farther... and believe...

If you are smooth you will be beyond amazed how far, how fast, how much the bike will do.

[Hero Danny]

Is it okay to engine brake in a turn? Or is that just as dangerous as regular braking.

[Sirref]

engine braking (or rolling off) transfers the weight onto the front tire and should be avoided mid corner if possible, particularly when traveling downhill if possible. It is preferable to braking and if you go either route to slow down standing the bike up a bit to reduce lean angle is advised. There was a downhill corner at shenandoah when I went for my track day last weekend and it felt awful if I went in too hot, the only way I could go through it and feel smooth was if I braked extra before the corner and turned in/started my roll on really early

[Panda]

Originally Posted by GreatScott

Is there some magic to it to keep my back end from being thrown out? When I'm told that my tire will lose traction if I use the brake in a turn I take it quite literally.

This is my #1 beef with the "don't brake in a corner" SR reaction "science".

The unnecessary fear that it causes.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

This is my #1 beef with the "don't brake in a corner" SR reaction "science".

The unnecessary fear that it causes.

The timing of these absolutes are the key. When I got my son on the 125 for the first time, I told him... grab the throttle with the wrist angled down and NEVER pin it. After proven skill increases and some seat time those absolutes can be replaced by more fitting rules. In further time, those rules will become general statements, subject to his interpretations and the absolutes will disappear.

Sure, it instilled unnecessary fear in my son when I told him to NEVER pin it. But it was for his own good and my own peace of mind as a father. Later, he will fly past me on one wheel, 2up, draggin' knee while flipping me the bird.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The timing of these absolutes are the key. When I got my son on the 125 for the first time, I told him... grab the throttle with the wrist angled down and NEVER pin it. After proven skill increases and some seat time those absolutes can be replaced by more fitting rules. In further time, those rules will become general statements, subject to his interpretations and the absolutes will disappear.

Sure, it instilled unnecessary fear in my son when I told him to NEVER pin it. But it was for his own good and my own peace of mind as a father. Later, he will fly past me on one wheel, 2up, draggin' knee while flipping me the bird.

I'm presuming your son is a child not an adult.

The "never touch your brake in a corner" SR is presented as an absolute by an adult with again, I presume an adult audience in mind. It makes new riders feel like they are going to dump it if they even think of hitting the front brake in a turn.

To me that's incomplete advice at best.

[ally99]

I disagree. I think it teaches new riders to be conscious of their entry speed and to learn the absolute best, "most correct" way to corner. No newbie should be braking in corners. When I took my MSF years ago, I'll never forget the instructor asking the class, "When you're in a turn and you realize you're in too hot, what is the ONLY thing you can do?" The answer? Lean further. The bike will do it...it's almost certain. If you DO lean further and you end up on he edge of your tire, you still have peg feelers (or knee, if your BP is good) to give you a final warning before you lose the bike.
Just saying, new riders should work to develop good habits. Good habits are developed by consistently riding using best practices.

[Panda]

How can you set your entry speed on a blind, descending, decreasing radius turn? How can you set your entry speed if midway through a turn a dog darts in front of you.

You can't.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

To me that's incomplete advice at best.

Yes, it is very incomplete by my teaching standard. Although, from the teachers point of view, sometimes a do and do not helps solidify a skill that is not so black and white.

This... is the skill of teachers, to change the curriculum based on the abilities of the student.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

How can you set your entry speed on a blind, descending, decreasing radius turn? How can you set your entry speed if midway through a turn a dog darts in front of you.

You can't.

Yes you can...

First off, you shouldn't be out riding your vision, so that in itself sets your entry speed. But if you're comfortable with the road, and know it.... a reference point will assist in setting a proper entry speed even if you cannot see the exit. In my neck of the woods there are 3 out of every 10 blind corners in my 100 or so mile Sunday route. A tree, a mailbox, a tar snake or crack in the road will give ya what you need. As a last resort, there is the vanishing point.

Dogs and other road critters... easy answer. Leave some room/skill/speed for these things on the street. If you don't, you set your entry speed too fast.

It's not hard, just common sense stuff.

[GreatScott]

Some great conversation going on in here.

[ally99]

That's what we do here at Ninjette.org It's how we roll.

[GreatScott]

I have read all the links in here, watched Twist of Wrist (Vol 2) and have soaked up a good amount information.

The specific road that prompted the original post has a S-turn that is about a tenth of a mile from start to finish, down hill and ends with a stop sign. Half way through I've been applying my brake in that section between the turns. I've also been taking the last turn tight so that I have space to stand the bike back up and brake before the sign. I've been successful with it and it's really building my confidence.

I'm probably a good 5-10 thousand miles away from even considering trail-braking. In time I suppose, haha.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Panda

How can you set your entry speed on a blind, descending, decreasing radius turn? How can you set your entry speed if midway through a turn a dog darts in front of you.

You can't.

Throttle Control Rule #1 to combat SR:
Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn. ~Keith Code
Say it to yourself 1,000 times.

Best practices. Practice them.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Yes you can...

First off, you shouldn't be out riding your vision, so that in itself sets your entry speed. But if you're comfortable with the road, and know it.... a reference point will assist in setting a proper entry speed even if you cannot see the exit. In my neck of the woods there are 3 out of every 10 blind corners in my 100 or so mile Sunday route. A tree, a mailbox, a tar snake or crack in the road will give ya what you need. As a last resort, there is the vanishing point.

Dogs and other road critters... easy answer. Leave some room/skill/speed for these things on the street. If you don't, you set your entry speed too fast.

It's not hard, just common sense stuff.

This is a great academic answer but in the real world it's not always applicable.

It's pretty easy to find a turn where to "set your entry speed" you have to slow down well below the speed limit because you are unfamiliar with a blind turn. It's not always possible to do this because of a variety of reasons.

What do you do when when you're on an off ramp and the 18 wheeler in front of you slows down because of traffic you can't see? My simple answer is use the front brake.

Point being you can come up with your vanishing points and knowing the road and setting entry speed...all well and good advice that I use when I ride. I can sometimes lean more if for some reason I'm going too hot etc. etc. Past the apex I roll the throttle on evenly and smoothly..... but....

Sometimes you actually need to you know, slow down. And for that you use the brake. It's a matter of opinion but teaching people by giving them partial advice or worse, teaching them to fear using the brakes in a turn because they'll instantly dump it is wrong.

[csmith12]

Hey Dan, I get the feeling we are 80/20... in violent agreement.

Here is an example of what your saying and how it applies to my comment.

2 weeks ago
10:40pm (on way home from bike night)
2 up (me and wife)
r6
Curvy 2 lane road

About 4-5 miles into the route I go around a corner and run into grass that the homeowner blew into the road. Yep... I didn't see it because it was dark and post apex and my lights didn't shine that far ahead. During the day, I can easily take this corner at the speed limit of 55mph.

How I set my entry speed.
Dark: -5mph
2up: -5mph
Possible critters: -5mph (mostly deer and dogs)
Possible road debris: -5mph

So my speed was roughly 35mph give or take. When surprised by the grass, simply put... speed was not a factor. And to your point, neither was hitting the brakes mid corner, even though it breaks throttle control rule #1.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

Is it okay to engine brake in a turn? Or is that just as dangerous as regular braking.

way way way advanced technique but not as dangerous as just grabbing a handful of front brake.

engine braking does one thing that rear brake application doesn't, it keeps the rear wheel spinning. Maybe slipping, maybe barking, but the wheel is still spinning... this avoids the standard "high side"

so as was said. the ideal weight distribution in a turn is 40% front / 60% rear. Rolling off the throttle upsets that... applying front brake upsets that even more.

applying rear brake doesn't upset it as much but it's difficult to add rear brake with out rolling off the throttle some...

rear brake will often "settle" the rear end... that is some what compress the rear suspension. when you are hard on the front brake and the rear is light, the suspension is at the end of it's travel. just light brake pressure on the rear will compress the suspension back into the top of the normal range...

soooo all that leads to this.

if you apply the rear brake hard enough, you can stop the tire, skid and low side.

if you try and release the rear brake in the slide, the tire will rotate and attempt to align with the bike again... the classic "high side"

if... you clutch in, down shift, light on the throttle and feather the clutch back out.... you can apply rear wheel "brake" with a system that will never "stop" so long as the engine continues to rotate...

yes, advanced technique, not recommended for anyone other then Rossi and Stoner... but it is a way to "brake" while keeping the rear tire rotating...

either tire stops rotating... you will drop the bike, period. Ask the front to do to much it will wash out on your... ask the rear to do to much and it will try and become the front tire.