Gearing down to pass question.

[Jay72]

Hi guys and gals, been a while since I have posted as the winter blahs are crappy and keeping the bike stored in my garage. Anyways I have been thinking way too much lately about riding soon and since I a a new rider I have a question about passing. So being here in Ontario Canada our speed is in Km/h, and the main road I will be travelling is a posted 80 km/h, most people travel at 90 or just above, so I am wondering say I am cruzing along at 90 km/h in sixth and I want to pass someone, can I drop down to 4th from sixth and punch it or would 5th be sufficient? Or is there enough pop in 6th at that speed to pass someone comfortably? I know it sounds like an odd question but it comes from me watching way too many vids on Youtube of guys on big sport bikes and dropping down a couple of gears and taking off like a shot. So all in all I guess what I am asking is is it easier to pass dropping down a gear or two or do our bikes rev high enough at around 50 mph in 6th to pass easily and quickly.

[alex.s]

3rd

[Jay72]

So I can drop from 6th to 3rd for 50-55 mph and punch it? Sorry man I am new to this.

[Jiggles]

Yea 3rd will go a little over 60mph or 100kph so if you want extra acceleration you can drop down that low

[Slono]

Originally Posted by Jay72

So I can drop from 6th to 3rd for 50-55 mph and punch it? Sorry man I am new to this.

I probably wouldn't drop it down to third gear. Try 4th or 5th. I usually drop it down to 5th and wring the throttle and it works fine. In most cases you wouldn't have to sling shot past anybody anyway. Just think about what you'd do in a car, and if you wouldn't do it in your car, you shouldn't be doing it on your bike.

[Jay72]

Originally Posted by Slono

I probably wouldn't drop it down to third gear. Try 4th or 5th. I usually drop it down to 5th and wring the throttle and it works fine. In most cases you wouldn't have to sling shot past anybody anyway. Just think about what you'd do in a car, and if you wouldn't do it in your car, you shouldn't be doing it on your bike.

You are saying exactly what I was thinking...and coming from someone that rides in Toronto....nuff said. lol
I guess what I was more asking is it alright to drop down more than 1 gear if need be.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Slono

I probably wouldn't drop it down to third gear. Try 4th or 5th. I usually drop it down to 5th and wring the throttle and it works fine. In most cases you wouldn't have to sling shot past anybody anyway. Just think about what you'd do in a car, and if you wouldn't do it in your car, you shouldn't be doing it on your bike.

That should be written in stone. Wish more people had that kind of common sense.
Nice one.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Jay72

You are saying exactly what I was thinking...and coming from someone that rides in Toronto....nuff said. lol
I guess what I was more asking is it alright to drop down more than 1 gear if need be.

Hi Jay
Spring is coming....my fricking grass is green and my bike is no where near.
Next year it will be in my new garage, ready at a second's notice.
Youtube is cruel and unusual punishment when one is without wheels. I think I've watched every Isle of Man TT and Dakar video in existence this last week.
Downloaded 17 gigs worth of podcasts about bikes - won't even fit on all my sticks. But now I understand all about using the back brake for increasing speed in corners..

[Jay72]

Hey Tana, I was actually sitting on my bike in my garage the other day while there was a snow storm...but yes it won't be long now, only problem here is that there is a ton of sand a gravel on all of the roads here in St. Marys, I more than likely won't ride until the street sweeper has done a few rounds. Plus I need to go and redo my M1 as it expired Christmas day, so I am hoping to write it and book my test at the same time. I would love it if you PM'd me some of the interesting podcast links for me to watch, especially about the use of the rear break.

[Firehorse]

Will do. There's a brilliant video of Rossi using the rear brake to settle the suspension too. Really good camera work.

Oh, now there goes my night, one Rossi video always leads to another.

I've got podcasts from the Toolnerds too, I'll send one of those just in case you like that sort of stuff.

We've got the same issues with the sand here. You'd think with all the money they saved on snow clearing, they could spend a little on the sweepers. I'd still be riding tonight if I could, just VERY upright in the corners! No slidey-slidey with no frame sliders yet.That's just asking for trouble.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by Slono

Just think about what you'd do in a car, and if you wouldn't do it in your car, you shouldn't be doing it on your bike.

Yeah, if you're on a 250

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Kevin2109

Yeah, if you're on a 250

No, if you're in traffic on any bike.

On the track? woohoo, give it. If you want speed only, there's a lot faster ways to move a human, wouldn't waste 'speed' in city traffic. Waste of gas, look like a tool.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

No, if you're in traffic on any bike.

my opinion:
riding bikes is nothing like driving a car. motivations are different. speeds are different. positioning and maneuvering are different. traffic management strategies are completely different, especially when passing is concerned. basically the only thing that is the same IMO is that you are both on the same road. im kinda a dick on the road but i give the bike 70% in traffic. enough to maintain steady movement passed traffic. not so much that all of your attention is focused forward.

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Will do. There's a brilliant video of Rossi using the rear brake to settle the suspension too. Really good camera work.

Oh, now there goes my night, one Rossi video always leads to another.

I've got podcasts from the Toolnerds too, I'll send one of those just in case you like that sort of stuff.

We've got the same issues with the sand here. You'd think with all the money they saved on snow clearing, they could spend a little on the sweepers. I'd still be riding tonight if I could, just VERY upright in the corners! No slidey-slidey with no frame sliders yet.That's just asking for trouble.

Could you possibly send me those links too?


I usually gear down to 4th if I'm already at 50-60mph if I really need to pass. Other wise I generally cruise by in 6th.

[Trailerboy531]

Instead of asking why don't you just try it? Drop one gear, does it feel like enough power? Drop 2, is that better or too much? Seems better to do it that way...

[choneofakind]

^^ psst! (drop 2!! Drop 2!!!) lovely sound.

[Slono]

Originally Posted by Trailerboy531

Instead of asking why don't you just try it? Drop one gear, does it feel like enough power? Drop 2, is that better or too much? Seems better to do it that way...

You run the risk of locking up your rear tire if you drop 2. I've never tried it out of fear that I might do exactly that, and unless you know how to blip your throttle (which I intend on learning) I would advise against it

[choneofakind]

Blip the throttle between shifts. By blip, I mean WOT. No rear lockups.

You should be blipping it on downshifts anyways to not wear the clutch unnecessarily.

[RaZeDaHeLL]

I have no problems flying past somebody in 6th gear. This whole "downshifting to accelerate" thing is new to me. I'll try it next time I'm on the highway and see if it works. I thought downshifting to 4th or even 5th would drop speed instead of accelerate.

Also what do you mean by blipping the throttle? I still consider myself a new rider and this is all new to me... Thanks

[choneofakind]

You know how 5th gear turns a higher rpm at the same speed than 6th gear? If you pull the clutch in, give it more throttle to get the engine up to the rpm's that the lower gear requires, you can then downshift more smoothly because there won't be a large difference between the rpm's the engine is turning, and the rpm's should be turning for that gear at that speed.

So basically, instead of clutch, kick down a gear, then letting out the clutch; Clutch, kick down a gear (throttle at the same time to match rpm's) then let out the clutch. Then open it up and enjoy the engine being in the rpm band where it makes more torque.

make more sense?

[Slono]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You know how 5th gear turns a higher rpm at the same speed than 6th gear? If you pull the clutch in, give it more throttle to get the engine up to the rpm's that the lower gear requires, you can then downshift more smoothly because there won't be a large difference between the rpm's the engine is turning, and the rpm's should be turning for that gear at that speed.

So basically, instead of clutch, kick down a gear, then letting out the clutch; Clutch, kick down a gear (throttle at the same time to match rpm's) then let out the clutch. Then open it up and enjoy the engine being in the rpm band where it makes more torque.

make more sense?

I think its more important for new riders to concentrate on riding rather than blipping. Yes, its a good thing to learn, but basics first, then other skills later (IMO).

[choneofakind]

That is a basic. Smooth shifting means up and down. Blipping makes for smooth downshifting.

Not to mention, it makes no sense to downshift without blipping, only to get on the throttle again so you can make the pass. That takes extra time, slips the clutch a lot (and like you said risks lock-up), and slows you down on top of that, when what you're trying to do is accelerate quickly for a pass

[RaZeDaHeLL]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You know how 5th gear turns a higher rpm at the same speed than 6th gear? If you pull the clutch in, give it more throttle to get the engine up to the rpm's that the lower gear requires, you can then downshift more smoothly because there won't be a large difference between the rpm's the engine is turning, and the rpm's should be turning for that gear at that speed.

So basically, instead of clutch, kick down a gear, then letting out the clutch; Clutch, kick down a gear (throttle at the same time to match rpm's) then let out the clutch. Then open it up and enjoy the engine being in the rpm band where it makes more torque.

make more sense?

Yes, that does make more sense. So first clutch, apply more throttle to compensate for the downshift by adding more rpm's and then downshift to 5th to keep the same speed? Then apply the throttle again to accelerate? That makes sense... I've done this before but in different situations, like downshifting for sudden upcoming traffic but still keeping the same speed as before. I downshift just in case I have to stop quickly but apply more throttle to avoid slowing down after the downshift.

[choneofakind]

Yeah that's pretty much it. Go look on youtube. There's plenty of videos that will be examples.

[THE BIG SITT]

Blipping isn't basic? I don't want to sound like a douche, but I learned the need to blip the first day I rode around my neighborhood. When you have to slow down to take a turn, but you don't need to come to a complete stop, you have to blip, otherwise you'll lock up the rear in the middle of the turn (or when you let go of the clutch). Sure, it takes some skill to know exactly how high to rev the engine, but if you can get it in the same ball park you're fine for the day-to-day road driving.

[Slono]

Originally Posted by THE BIG SITT

Blipping isn't basic? I don't want to sound like a douche, but I learned the need to blip the first day I rode around my neighborhood. When you have to slow down to take a turn, but you don't need to come to a complete stop, you have to blip, otherwise you'll lock up the rear in the middle of the turn (or when you let go of the clutch). Sure, it takes some skill to know exactly how high to rev the engine, but if you can get it in the same ball park you're fine for the day-to-day road driving.

If its basic, the MSF course would have taught you that.
But come to think of it, I don't do it consciously, but I utilize that skill once in a while. I'm not good at it though, I think one time I jerked my bike because I blipped it but not high enough to match the revs of the engine so when I released the clutch it wasn't smooth.

[RaZeDaHeLL]

Originally Posted by Slono

I think its more important for new riders to concentrate on riding rather than blipping. Yes, its a good thing to learn, but basics first, then other skills later (IMO).

I definitely agree with that... But I've been riding for almost a year now and I feel that I have mastered the basics and I'm ready to learn more and experiment different riding techniques. Blipping is something I have never heard of... they don't teach that in MSF. I have never heard of the term until today but after choneofakind explained it better I understand exactly what it is.

This is why I come to ninjette.org. If it wasn't for you guys I would be lost.

[RaZeDaHeLL]

Originally Posted by THE BIG SITT

Blipping isn't basic? I don't want to sound like a douche, but I learned the need to blip the first day I rode around my neighborhood. When you have to slow down to take a turn, but you don't need to come to a complete stop, you have to blip, otherwise you'll lock up the rear in the middle of the turn (or when you let go of the clutch). Sure, it takes some skill to know exactly how high to rev the engine, but if you can get it in the same ball park you're fine for the day-to-day road driving.

It is basic, but its something they don't really teach you in MSF and if you don't have friends that ride, you have to figure it out on your own. That is another good example of when to blip.

Originally Posted by Slono

If its basic, the MSF course would have taught you that.
But come to think of it, I don't do it consciously, but I utilize that skill once in a while. I'm not good at it though, I think one time I jerked my bike because I blipped it but not high enough to match the revs of the engine so when I released the clutch it wasn't smooth.

I've also jerked my bike before, this is how I learned how to "blip" subconsciously.

[Jono]

Blipping is kinda basic but not really. You can get by in the city without doing it. When I learned to drive stickshift in the car nobody taught me about blipping on downshifts. I discovered it on my own. My mom has driven a manual for many,many years without ever blipping the gas on downshifts. So I am sure many recreational motorcyclists don't blip on downshifts.

But if you want to be really in control of your vehicle you need to learn it. I think with our ninjas you NEED to learn how to blip the throttle for downshifts because they don't have tons of power. We have to downshift quite a bit. And blipping makes is smooth and quick.

The only time I don't blip on downshifts is when I am coming to a stop and want to use engine braking to slow down. I then downshift and slowly release the clutch.

[Jay72]

Originally Posted by Trailerboy531

Instead of asking why don't you just try it? Drop one gear, does it feel like enough power? Drop 2, is that better or too much? Seems better to do it that way...

Sorry to say Max but that is a pretty ****** answer, I understand what you are saying, but remember I am new, and many of the people reading this are new, much less experience than I have. I asked the question because the last thing I wanted was to try and drop down to 4th from 6th (even with a blip, but potentially not enough) and have the bike buck so hard that I end up in trouble. So that is why I asked instead of just trying it. I do value my life, and to make it clear I have no intention of riding like some of the people on Youtube, I just wanted to know the best way to get nice punchy passing power from my new 250.

[Jay72]

I would also like to add that I have zero trouble shifting up or down, I can blip and shift down pretty much as smooth as I can shift up, so that wasn't the issue.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Slono

If its basic, the MSF course would have taught you that.

Umm, my MSF course instructors did teach us that...

[Slono]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Umm, my MSF course instructors did teach us that...

Mine didn't. They talked about it but told us to use smooth clutch control instead, probably because they didn't want newbies to get overwhelmed. Needless to say a handful still were even without blipping.

[avneet]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Umm, my MSF course instructors did teach us that...

Ours didn't talk about it either. Wasn't in our handbook. I had to learn it on my own after reading about it online.

[choneofakind]

maybe I just had really helpful MSF guys? huh...

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

maybe I just had really helpful MSF guys? huh...

Maybe its a regional thing. My msf instructor covered blipping in the classroom but then said DON'T do it on the range. He also covered cornering in a similar fashion as at a track day clinic. He went well beyond the printed materials in a lot of areas. He took a poll on the first day and there was only 1 new rider, everyone else had experience already. Maybe that was the reason. Dunno...

Everyone told me "you already know how to ride, don't expect much out of the msf" but I was surprised by the detail he put into the material when I took the course. On the range though, total opposite. Everything was by the book. Nothing extra...

[csmith12]

To the OP;

Dropping down 1 gear should be sufficient enough 99% of the time. However... there are personal preferences involved. Some drop 2 gears just for the thrill of it, after all... it's only a 250. Others like to shoot past the vehicle being passed, as their time spent in blind spots is minimized.

I find myself being somewhat more of a defensive rider. Where dropping 1 gear allows me to safely and comfortably make a pass. I have dropped 2 to pass before but normally to catch up with someone. I feel like I have done something wrong or put myself in a dangerous situation if feel the need to make a pass at more than 10mph more than the posted speed limit.

Ride safe!

[Jay72]

Chris, thanks very much that is exactly what I was asking and needing an answer for. I have only been out on my bike a half dozen times since I bought it due to the winter, but I wasn't sure how safe it was to drop more than one gear and if it was even necessary, and you totally answered my question. And just so everyone realizes why I was asking, the two lane highway I will be traveling to go back and for to work often has slower vehicles on it but it is somewhat busy, especially around 3:00 pm, so I will more than likely have to need to pass the odd car here or there and I just wanted to know the fastest and safest way to go about it.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Blip the throttle between shifts. By blip, I mean WOT. No rear lockups.

You should be blipping it on downshifts anyways to not wear the clutch unnecessarily.

what if you are intentionally trying to step the rear out?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by THE BIG SITT

Blipping isn't basic? I don't want to sound like a douche, but I learned the need to blip the first day I rode around my neighborhood. When you have to slow down to take a turn, but you don't need to come to a complete stop, you have to blip, otherwise you'll lock up the rear in the middle of the turn (or when you let go of the clutch). Sure, it takes some skill to know exactly how high to rev the engine, but if you can get it in the same ball park you're fine for the day-to-day road driving.

btw andy you shoould be doing your downshifting well before the corner. before you start to turn the bike so you can be on the gas through the corner. downshifting mid corner is asking to highside

Originally Posted by Slono

You run the risk of locking up your rear tire if you drop 2. I've never tried it out of fear that I might do exactly that, and unless you know how to blip your throttle (which I intend on learning) I would advise against it

... no?