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Old April 19th, 2011, 08:40 AM   #1
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Words of wisdom from another forum...

On another forum, a car forum, a guy asks for advice on getting a bike. He's a new rider. Here are some excerpts that one fellow has WRT the 250 Ninja...

"I have over 150k miles of motorcycle experience on bikes 50cc up to 1800cc. I have taken the 250's I have had (Rebel, Ninja, Morphous, Reflex) on highways and they simply dont have the ability to stay with the flow of traffic as well as a bike that is 500+cc, that in my opinion makes them less safe than a bike that has the HP to adjust speed more quickly."

"A 180mph bike is not more dangerous than a 250..."

"You cant possibly think taking a 250 on a 75mph hwy is safe..."

"Anything that underpowered is unsafe @ hwy speeds."

"...they are not good for high speed traffic. You will just become a hazzard."

"Ninja 250 is too slow to be a safe vehicle on any highway."

"I'd NEVER get another 250cc...they are unsafe @ hwy speeds."

"I do a LOT of riding, most in mountainous areas, maybe 20% on hwy. I would NEVER take any of the 250's anywhere the speed-limit was over 65mph, they just do NOT have the get up and go to make it safe."

"There is not much scarier than taking an underpowered bike on the highway..."

"...BUT 65+ it really bogged down."

"I am no bike snob..."

Of course, he argues his opinion as fact, which is hilarious. Hopefully the potential new rider doesn't give any weight to this guy.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 08:48 AM   #2
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This has to be that guy!
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:10 AM   #3
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This has to be that guy!
Is that "padding" CE approved? Looks like there's a crack in his armor, he may want to get that looked at and possibly replaced.

Maybe in his defense, he can't go ATGATT b/c he has a hard time finding stuff that fits.*


*As a former waaay overweight guy, I'm allowed to make the occasional "fat" joke.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:21 AM   #4
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Hey, I don't remember signing over model rights to that picture!
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:24 AM   #5
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Hey, I don't remember signing over model rights to that picture!
Are you claiming ownership to that crack?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:27 AM   #6
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Hey, I don't remember signing over model rights to that picture!
Sorry Alex, it was taken on public property, there's no copyright protection.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:32 AM   #7
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I sure hope that's the bike's exhaust in that picture!

So Alex, was that photo taken during your slimmer years??
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:47 AM   #8
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OMG what could I possibly have been thinking taking my 250 on the highway?

Worse even going 80mph, I should have know it was not possible!
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Old April 19th, 2011, 11:13 AM   #9
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Wait wait wait........... so me doing 80mph on I-4 in EVERY morning to get to work ISN'T possible with a ninja 250? Holy crap, I never knew that. Guess I better stop going on I-4 with my ninjette (a road that riders I know on bigger bikes avoid and call me crazy/hardcore/whatever for riding on).

So who wants to go spam that forum thread with our "Oh really?" based posts with proof he's wrong?


If being on a highway with a 250 is so unsafe because it doesn't have the power for it, then why do I occasionally pass slower riders on anything from a cruiser to a busa while I'm doing 80mph?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 11:31 AM   #10
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I don't know about anyone else, but the Interstates I frequent have 65 & 70 MPH speed limits. Cars and trucks get out of my way. When I look down at the speedo, I have to throttle back sometimes so I don't get the ticket, cause my 250 is running like a scalded dog!
Now ain't dat some shish!!
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #11
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While I won't say I agree with the quote in the original post, I do think he has a small point. I like having the flexibility to quickly adjust my speed on the highway. While you can do this on a 250, a larger CC'd bike will most likely be more responsive. I know personally, there have been many times when that extra power has enabled me to get out of a potentially dangerous situation quicker than I could on my 2009 Ninja 250.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:13 PM   #12
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I also had the "pleasure" of taking a Honda Rebel 250 for a quick run on the highway. I think this is a completely different situation than the ninja. It took almost all that bike had to get it going 80 mph. I'm surprised the original quote linked the two bikes together, and I would not be surprised if his comments are more about bikes like the Rebel.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #13
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This has to be that guy!
LOL. Is that suspension properly adjusted?
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:56 PM   #14
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Well I guess it depends on the 250 in question. As we all know, Ninja 250s are the best 250s and we all know they will rock 80 mph all day long without breaking a sweat.

My wife's TU250, on the other hand, while a great motorcycle, can't go faster than 70 mph with me on it, and that is downhill.

But yeah, bad advice none the less for a new rider.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 03:22 PM   #15
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That fat guy needs to gear up.

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Old April 19th, 2011, 03:42 PM   #16
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Now that I know the truth I am trading in my dangerous Ninja 250 for a ZX14R
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Old April 19th, 2011, 03:43 PM   #17
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That guy should take my XT225 out on the highway sometime! After a few miles of that, the Ninjette feels like a crazy rocketship!
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Old April 19th, 2011, 07:00 PM   #18
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In some ways I preferred the Ninjette with the fairing to my naked ER-6N on the highway. It was nice to tuck in under the wind blast and just cruise, as opposed to beating my way through the air! I never felt like the 250 was dangerously underpowered, unless I was driving dangerously. At sane, legal speeds (and most illegal up to about 90 MPH) the Ninjette was fine.

People that need the throttle to get them out a situation are usually responsible for getting into that situation in the first place with poor riding habits or decision making skills. once I knew the 250's capabilities I rarely lacked for power, I just changed my riding style accordingly.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 12:27 AM   #19
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People that need the throttle to get them out a situation are usually responsible for getting into that situation in the first place with poor riding habits or decision making skills.
I've got to disagree with this. While there are good and bad riders out there on every size and type of bike, there are also bad car and truck drivers that we all have to deal with. I don't put myself into dangerous situations. I avoid them. Having the ability to quickly accelerate and move through traffic (faster than a 250) is a benefit in my opinion. I wouldn't say that this automatically makes a 250 more dangerous on the highway though.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #20
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I tried using all the arguments with a CHP officer that the OP mentioned .... I still got a ticket.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 07:19 AM   #21
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While I won't say I agree with the quote in the original post, I do think he has a small point. I like having the flexibility to quickly adjust my speed on the highway. While you can do this on a 250, a larger CC'd bike will most likely be more responsive. I know personally, there have been many times when that extra power has enabled me to get out of a potentially dangerous situation quicker than I could on my 2009 Ninja 250.
This is almost word for word one of the arguments he used to justify his bias against smaller bikes.

Let me ask everyone here, presumably most or all of whom have significant experience with riding 250 Ninjas, this multi-part question:

1. Have you ever been in a situation where more horsepower and quicker acceleration would have prevented a collision or crash?

2. How many of those situations were caused by you (failed to check for oncoming cars before pulling out, misjudged traffic speeds before lane changing, cooked into a corner way too hot, etc.)?

It is my opinion, based on my 2 years and 25,000+ miles of riding experience, that the argument that more horsepower = safer is false, and at best the additional performance is simply a cover-up for poor riding skills and bad decision-making in traffic. If more HP = safer then it would stand to reason that the only safe cars on the road would be Lamborghinis, Veryons, etc, and the only safe bikes would be Hayabusas. Of course, this is patently absurd.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 07:58 AM   #22
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In general, I have to agree with FrugalNinja.

Obviously I could concoct potential scenarios in which the added acceleration could potentially avoid an accident ("and then the watermelon truck was hit by a meteorite and suddenly there were WATERMELONS EVERYWHERE and only my super agile speed allowed me to avoid the fruity carnage....").

In my own personal experience, though, having ridden on the freeway on a 17hp XT225 all the way up to a 100+hp Honda VTR1000....it doesn't really matter.

I have certainly been more *comfortable* riding on the freeway on larger bikes (the XT in particular is painful after about 30 miles because of its utter lack of aerodynamics) but that has very little to do with safety. I suppose you could say that extended periods of discomfort could lead to distracted riding, which could lead to an unsafe situation...

In general, though, the close calls I've gotten into on the freeway, and there haven't really been many, have been because I've spaced out and started riding in someone's blind spot. It's just as easy to do that on a ZX14 as on a 250R.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 08:08 AM   #23
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Having ridden only dirtbikes and my Ninja 250, I cannot comment on motorcycles so much, but.....

Having driven everything from a 60hp MG Midget to a 400hp Subaru STi I can say that horsepower ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT get you out of a situation. While I much prefer driving the STi, the MG is just as capable of stopping, or turning to get out of a situation as the STi. You also find yourself in more dangerous situations because you think your ride is capable of so much more.

I can assure you, getting hit by a semi at highway speeds is no different in an STi, MG Midget, Ninja 250 or Hyabusa. You do, however, find yourself riding closer to semi's in a higher hp vehicle because you figure "well, I can do 0-60 in 3.4 seconds so I'll just speed up if something happens."

That is not good driving. Good driving is never being in the situation to begin with. You can't speed up, slow down or turn when you are boxed in.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 08:33 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250 View Post
This is almost word for word one of the arguments he used to justify his bias against smaller bikes.

Let me ask everyone here, presumably most or all of whom have significant experience with riding 250 Ninjas, this multi-part question:

1. Have you ever been in a situation where more horsepower and quicker acceleration would have prevented a collision or crash?

2. How many of those situations were caused by you (failed to check for oncoming cars before pulling out, misjudged traffic speeds before lane changing, cooked into a corner way too hot, etc.)?

It is my opinion, based on my 2 years and 25,000+ miles of riding experience, that the argument that more horsepower = safer is false, and at best the additional performance is simply a cover-up for poor riding skills and bad decision-making in traffic. If more HP = safer then it would stand to reason that the only safe cars on the road would be Lamborghinis, Veryons, etc, and the only safe bikes would be Hayabusas. Of course, this is patently absurd.
In 99% of the "dangerous situations" the brakes are going to be your best option. But I will concede that there is going to be that 1%. I've been in that 1% situation, and it 100% could have been avoided had I just taken off a tad slower and used hand signals to warnt he douche behind me. But in my mind I thought "There's NO WAY that woman is going to run that red light to turn the corner!" And she did. I had to gas my way out of it, and of course, she was like "What?" when I yelled at her at the next light.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 10:26 AM   #25
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("and then the watermelon truck was hit by a meteorite and suddenly there were WATERMELONS EVERYWHERE and only my super agile speed allowed me to avoid the fruity carnage....").
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Old April 20th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250 View Post
This is almost word for word one of the arguments he used to justify his bias against smaller bikes.

Let me ask everyone here, presumably most or all of whom have significant experience with riding 250 Ninjas, this multi-part question:

1. Have you ever been in a situation where more horsepower and quicker acceleration would have prevented a collision or crash?

2. How many of those situations were caused by you (failed to check for oncoming cars before pulling out, misjudged traffic speeds before lane changing, cooked into a corner way too hot, etc.)?

It is my opinion, based on my 2 years and 25,000+ miles of riding experience, that the argument that more horsepower = safer is false, and at best the additional performance is simply a cover-up for poor riding skills and bad decision-making in traffic. If more HP = safer then it would stand to reason that the only safe cars on the road would be Lamborghinis, Veryons, etc, and the only safe bikes would be Hayabusas. Of course, this is patently absurd.
I have no bias against smaller bikes. And you are misinterpreting my point. I am not talking about the extra power being available to prevent a collision or a crash necessarily, but rather to move you out of a more dangerous situation. If you do much highway riding, it is much more dangerous to be riding within a large group of cars/trucks/busses, than it is to be riding out in front of them. The danger being from them not seeing you. My point is that when I am riding a bike with more power, I do have the ability to get out of these situations to a larger degree than I would if I were riding a smaller bike (depending on the bikes in question of course). So yes, in this circumstance, you can use the additional power to your advantage.

I also never made any claim that more HP made a bike safer. The biggest factor in rider safety is in the skills of the rider him/herself. While I would never claim to be an expert rider, I do base my opinion on over 25 years of riding.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #27
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Having ridden only dirtbikes and my Ninja 250, I cannot comment on motorcycles so much, but.....

Having driven everything from a 60hp MG Midget to a 400hp Subaru STi I can say that horsepower ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT get you out of a situation. While I much prefer driving the STi, the MG is just as capable of stopping, or turning to get out of a situation as the STi. You also find yourself in more dangerous situations because you think your ride is capable of so much more.

I can assure you, getting hit by a semi at highway speeds is no different in an STi, MG Midget, Ninja 250 or Hyabusa. You do, however, find yourself riding closer to semi's in a higher hp vehicle because you figure "well, I can do 0-60 in 3.4 seconds so I'll just speed up if something happens."

That is not good driving. Good driving is never being in the situation to begin with. You can't speed up, slow down or turn when you are boxed in.
The advantage I am talking about with more power does not translate the same to a car. Comparing a motorcycle to a car is apples and oranges. As for understanding what your ride is capable of, this comes down to skill. I certainly do have an understanding of the capabilities as well as the limitations of my bike. One can just as easily underestimate the capabilities of a 250 as they could a Zx14.

Good driving/riding is not to never be in a certain situation. Good driving/riding is knowing both how to avoid that situation as well as what to do when avoidance is not an option.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 02:04 AM   #28
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I have no bias against smaller bikes.
Really? I was curious about your your Ninjette history and found this:

Sold my Ninja 250

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cool, how many miles did you put on the 250 ?
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Just over 1k. In fact, it rolled over 1k on my ride to the dealer. I only owned the bike for 2 months.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 03:15 AM   #29
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So, let's all register and bomb that other forum thread with ninjette awesomeness. Who wants to organize an invasion?
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Old April 21st, 2011, 06:30 AM   #30
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Let's not, I'm a regular over there and don't need the headache of a drive-by. Besides, the moderator (there's only one) runs some pretty serious registration filtering since he's a programmer by day, a darned good one.

Yeah, the guy in question is most definitely a tool. His mentality toward the 250 Ninja (which he's owned for a short time in the past) is about the same as a racist who claims he's not by virtue of the fact he's got one friend of a different ethnicity. He's also pretty immature, though his age is unknown. My main concern is that he's going to get some new rider killed by talking them into a modern 600 or liter bike as a first bike. It was either him or his buddy that made the statement, "If you can't handle a liter bike you probably shouldn't be riding motorcycles." Probably one of the most asinine comments I've ever seen someone spew through their keyboard, IMHO.

Grrrr.... Sometimes I think we need to adopt tiered licensing nationwide, thus eliminating guys like these from the first bike decision-making process altogether.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 09:42 AM   #31
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Grrrr.... Sometimes I think we need to adopt tiered licensing nationwide, thus eliminating guys like these from the first bike decision-making process altogether.
100% agree.

I think there are a lot of things we could/should adopt from other nations around the world, but I'll leave that for another time. I have thought for some time now that we need a tiered system for motorcycle licensing to try and deflate the stereotypical young American male ego.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 09:47 AM   #32
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So....you're saying there are dumb people on the internet?!

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Old April 21st, 2011, 09:49 AM   #33
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I think there are a lot of things we could/should adopt from other nations around the world, but I'll leave that for another time. I have thought for some time now that we need a tiered system for motorcycle licensing to try and deflate the stereotypical young American male ego.
LOL why would you want this? Then stupidity becomes the burden of the state. You don't want that...and I'm saying this as a Canadian with free healthcare.

If you want to do right by this kid then point this forum out to him. Kelly and Alex have shown that this works in the past. If he chooses not to heed more conservative advice then that's his prerogative. Our own personal choices are the only real freedoms that any of us really have.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by KJohnson21 View Post
Really? I was curious about your your Ninjette history and found this:

Sold my Ninja 250
And how exactly is this a bias toward smaller bikes? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't be posting on this forum because I no longer own a Ninja 250?
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:22 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250 View Post
Grrrr.... Sometimes I think we need to adopt tiered licensing nationwide, thus eliminating guys like these from the first bike decision-making process altogether.
100% agree with you. How would I go about suggesting this to someone that matters? Call/ write a letter to a Senator? Would it even be feasible to try to enact this?
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:42 PM   #36
revstriker
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100% agree with you. How would I go about suggesting this to someone that matters? Call/ write a letter to a Senator? Would it even be feasible to try to enact this?
The best place to start would be your local state reps. Licensing is a state issue (non-commercial). I think it would be very difficult however to get something like this put into law nationwide.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:43 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
100% agree with you. How would I go about suggesting this to someone that matters? Call/ write a letter to a Senator? Would it even be feasible to try to enact this?
Do we REALLY need more laws and government control? Do we REALLY want to enforce an agenda by force?

My political views may be obvious through this post, but my intention is not to 7500 the post into a political discussion, but rather address alternative solutions.

My proposal is 1) get some honest scientific studies of the issue (including looking at data from places with and without tiers). There will have to be more factors considered, like economic factors, availability of large vs small CC bikes, etc. 2) have an honest discussion about the results, but be open to having the data and conclusions challenged (if there is one thing I learned about statistics, it is that you can use it to say anything you want). 3) if it is determined to be a significant problem, look first at influencing the industry to self-police. Of course if the market wants bigger, they will have to hold the two in tension. If little changes though, I honestly don't think more laws are the answer, unless other innocents are being harmed (running super-sport into a preschool class, etc.).

Milton Friedman would say to let the free market decide.... so practically speaking, we are seeing a demand for larger CC bikes, in part because people (including a lot of SQUIDS) like them. Although I'm sure there is a feedback loop between consumer demand and marketing... in other words, I think they drive each other. So, if demand increases supply of super-sport bikes, and SQUIDS crash them enough, insurance skyrockets (already on its way in many cases). Eventually, I would think SQUIDS would be forced by the insurances' influence on the market to buy smaller bike, and actually grow old enough to mature.

No need to further legislate. My
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:53 PM   #38
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You're right. Definitely data would be needed to see if it would actually be feasible/possible/even slightly useful. and likely h3LL would have to freeze over before this would ever become a law in the US. I accept that. But right now, EVERYONE looks at you like you're crazy for riding a motorcycle because motorcycles have the highest injury/death rate per accident (read that on a thread here somewhere, don't remember where. sorry) out of any vehicle on the road. This system works in Europe, and honestly, I think that it would save a lot of lives in the states, and many more riders would actually know how to ride, instead of creeping around turns and opening it up to 100 on the straights. That's just my opinion. And that's the great thing about America; the people being governed can choose how they're governed. So while this tiered system will likely NEVER work in the US, I can still try.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 12:56 PM   #39
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People that need the throttle to get them out a situation are usually responsible for getting into that situation in the first place with poor riding habits or decision making skills. once I knew the 250's capabilities I rarely lacked for power, I just changed my riding style accordingly.
Hear Hear!

Are there times where more accessible acceleration or hp desirable? Certainly. But, I tend to agree that the main factor is NOT the bike, but the rider, and in particular, the rider's situational awareness.

Consider two scenarios: The first is a rider on a small "underpowered" bike who is REALLY alert, head on a swivel, knows where traffic is and where it is going. They KNOW they can't "twist the wrist" and shoot out of a bad scene. They know they have to play the thinking game even just passing on a highway.

The latter is a rider who starts to *rely* on the throttle to get out of bad spots that they should have never allowed to develop around them in the first place.

Oh, certainly, someone could suddenly swerve across two lanes of traffic and take out either rider, but what I am getting is "normal riding" not the exceptional and is more about having your head in the game.

I've heard a couple riders talk about "I was going down this highway, and suddenly this semi-truck nearly sideswiped me off the road"! Say what?!? Did someone teleport the semi-truck next to them? Did it suddenly arrive via a portal? Nope, that was a serious case of just not paying attention.

Check you six, often. Make planning "escape routes" a constant game. I find that motorcycling is an odd partner with having a "nervous/anxious disposition". Its just my nature to be somewhat paranoid when riding, and while riding, its actually healthy!

But yes, not all 250s are created equal...and the Ninja is probably the most highway worthy one I know of.
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Old April 21st, 2011, 01:01 PM   #40
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voidrider!!! Amen!
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