Rules specific question for catch pan

[Mechanikrazy]

Before I venture into the realm of the CCS forum and set things off on the wrong foot, I was wondering if you fellow Ninjette folk have knowledge on how tech might interpret permanent. I'm a newb thinking about trying some local and CCS 300 racing next season.

The CCS rulebook includes:

5.2.23 All 4-stroke machines must be equipped with a fluid catch pan of
sufficient size and heat-resistant material to contain the contents of the
crankcase in the event of an engine or crankcase failure. Minimum
capacity of the fluid catch pan is to be 3 quarts.
E. Repairs to fluid catch pans must be made with a permanent method
such as fiberglass. (Tape, caulk, silicone or other non-permanent
methods are not permitted.)

My lower has a kickstand cutout, and might look suspect for retaining 3 quarts (if tilted to the left, definitely not). I would prefer not to buy another lower, due to cost and limited storage space.

My initial thought on a "permanent" fix that I can relatively easily remove for trackdays:
-a piece of fiberglass sheet and a rubber sealing trim on the inside of the lower to seal the cutout.
-three bolt and nut fasteners on the front, back, and bottom of the sheet to make it "permanent" to the lower and meet 5.2.11.

5.2.11 Fairings must be mounted in at least three location

Anyone have initial thoughts? Or is it a clear no-go?

Thanks!

[tgold]

Mechanikrazy,

I think your idea is a good solution for what you are trying to accomplish. The three bolts on each side is overkill though. The rule you are quoting is in regard to mounting the fairing to the bike. Although I have not raced with CCS, I have been through countless tech inspections and I have been a tech inspector myself. For the most part what tech inspectors look for is for is a bike that looks safe. They usually can't go over every nut and bolt on a bike because they may have a couple hundred bikes to get through tech in a short time. Presentation matters. If I see a bike that looks cobbled together at first glance, it will get more scrutiny than I normally would give when inspecting.
Ask yourself the question: Do I trust this to do the job of retaining fluid? If you can honestly answer yes, then you should be good. Do the job well and make it look unobtrusive. Be prepared to explain if necessary, but don't bring it up on your own. If they know you are a first time racer you will probably get a little more thorough inspection, but don't worry, you should be ok. Be prepared with a drill and safety wire in case they find something that you missed. Usually people will be pretty helpful in doing what it takes to get you on the track on your first race weekend.
You could always call CCS and ask ahead of time as well.

ADDED: I went back out into the garage and looked at my racebike, and I think that you could simply glass-in a vertical wall that follows the general outline of the kickstand cutout. That would eliminate needing a removable plate while keeping both kickstand use and fluid retaining capability.

Having said all that, a word of caution: The kickstand bracket on the 250/300 Ninja hangs very low and is known to drag relatively easily and put people on their head without warning. For that reason many race organizations allow it to be cut off even in the supersport classes and they will actually encourage it. I know that requires quite a commitment as far as being streetable goes, but it is something you should be aware of when racing. It's easy to say something like: "I'll take it easier on lefthanders" but racing does a funny thing to us and we naturally wind up going faster and leaning a little more seemingly without trying harder. Depending on your skill level you will probably be ok for your first race weekend, but I just wanted to let you know.
Best of success to you in jumping into racing. I think you'll have a blast!

[AwDang]

Originally Posted by tgold

Mechanikrazy,

Having said all that, a word of caution: The kickstand bracket on the 250/300 Ninja hangs very low and is known to drag relatively easily and put people on their head without warning. For that reason many race organizations allow it to be cut off even in the supersport classes and they will actually encourage it. I know that requires quite a commitment as far as being streetable goes, but it is something you should be aware of when racing. It's easy to say something like: "I'll take it easier on lefthanders" but racing does a funny thing to us and we naturally wind up going faster and leaning a little more seemingly without trying harder. Depending on your skill level you will probably be ok for your first race weekend, but I just wanted to let you know.
Best of success to you in jumping into racing. I think you'll have a blast!

ALL OF THAT^ (in caps) Is really, really important.
Chris has a TD pic with just the smallest amount of light showing under the tab.

[csmith12]

Unless you have cut out a huge area, trimming the lower for the side stand should be no big deal by race tech. Mine is also trimmed to allow for the tab and have raced with many race orgs who could have cared less really.

Post a pic and we can help ya better.

YES!!!! Straight up cut the tab off for safety. Don't be this guy...

Good luck and have fun racing.

[Dave Wolfe]

Ive scraped mine and Im not very fast. As Im turning my bike into track only, its an easy decision to chop it. Of course Im probably killing $400 in resale as a result but I can live with that.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Dave Wolfe

Ive scraped mine and Im not very fast. As Im turning my bike into track only, its an easy decision to chop it. Of course Im probably killing $400 in resale as a result but I can live with that.

A talented welder can put it back on. Take a pic of the mount before it's cut off and make a clean cut, then paint it to stop rust.

It shouldn't be any more of a hit to resale value aside of the bike has been "raced."

[Mechanikrazy]

Thanks for all the thoughts! I'm definitely glad to have you all as a resource to draw on. You've all given me food for thought on this over the next few months as I work on the bike.

Originally Posted by tgold

ADDED: I went back out into the garage and looked at my racebike, and I think that you could simply glass-in a vertical wall that follows the general outline of the kickstand cutout. That would eliminate needing a removable plate while keeping both kickstand use and fluid retaining capability.

Could you explain the glass-in vertical wall a bit? Sorry, I'm not quite seeing it in my head. It is trimmed fairly minimally to follow the swing path of the kickstand, and I don't think I could build up anything more.

I'm out of town right now, but will get back to my bike on Monday and take a look again.

Originally Posted by tgold

Having said all that, a word of caution: The kickstand bracket on the 250/300 Ninja hangs very low and is known to drag relatively easily and put people on their head without warning. For that reason many race organizations allow it to be cut off even in the supersport classes and they will actually encourage it. I know that requires quite a commitment as far as being streetable goes, but it is something you should be aware of when racing. It's easy to say something like: "I'll take it easier on lefthanders" but racing does a funny thing to us and we naturally wind up going faster and leaning a little more seemingly without trying harder.

Originally Posted by csmith12

Unless you have cut out a huge area, trimming the lower for the side stand should be no big deal by race tech. Mine is also trimmed to allow for the tab and have raced with many race orgs who could have cared less really.

Post a pic and we can help ya better.

YES!!!! Straight up cut the tab off for safety. Don't be this guy...

Good luck and have fun racing.

Whoa! I didn't realize the 250 stuck out that much! Thankfully, the 300 kickstand is a lot safer. The mount itself is recessed inside the fairing on the 300. Even with the kickstand, I should be dragging peg before I touch down the kickstand.

I've attached some photos of my cutout and kickstand position for reference. Sorry, I don't have better photos at this moment. And Happy new year!

Cutout


Kickstand position

[csmith12]

Yea... they aint gunna like that cutout. :\ You should be able to take off your sidestand, leave the mount and glass back in the cutout. A bit of sand and paint and your lookin' good on the grid. If you do nothing... in a pinch a thick foil turkey roasting pan will also work as a lower.

[Mechanikrazy]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Yea... they aint gunna like that cutout. :\ You should be able to take off your sidestand, leave the mount and glass back in the cutout. A bit of sand and paint and your lookin' good on the grid. If you do nothing... in a pinch a thick foil turkey roasting pan will also work as a lower.

That photo is amazing! Haha. I've heard stories about that, but never seen the photos.

I want to keep the kickstand though, as it makes my storage and loading a lot more convenient. It's a whole convoluted process to get my bike from underground parking to solo load up in a rental van on the street.

After some more thought, I'm thinking of just getting a sheet of neoprene rubber and epoxy either aluminum plate or fiberglass to it. Drill mounting holes, and then bolt and nut the combined plate to cover the cutout, with the neoprene side acting as a sealer. I don''t think that sounds sketch.... do you guys? If not, I might just run it by CCS tech on their forum and hope I don't become "that new guy" everyone extra checks in tech. Hah

[Dave Wolfe]

Didnt realize you're on a 300. Yep the 300 kickstand bracket isnt a problem, I think its only the 08-13 250's that need to be cut. The pregen 250's can simply unbolt the bracket.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by Mechanikrazy

That photo is amazing! Haha. I've heard stories about that, but never seen the photos.

I want to keep the kickstand though, as it makes my storage and loading a lot more convenient. It's a whole convoluted process to get my bike from underground parking to solo load up in a rental van on the street.

After some more thought, I'm thinking of just getting a sheet of neoprene rubber and epoxy either aluminum plate or fiberglass to it. Drill mounting holes, and then bolt and nut the combined plate to cover the cutout, with the neoprene side acting as a sealer. I don''t think that sounds sketch.... do you guys? If not, I might just run it by CCS tech on their forum and hope I don't become "that new guy" everyone extra checks in tech. Hah

I didn't realize that the 300 frames had the kickstand mount changed. That's a good thing cause I wouldn't have wanted to make a road trip with my TIG machine to weld yours back on.

Not of sound preachy, but I'd suggest you want to be known as "the new guy" when you go through tech for the first time. It's for your safety and the safety of the other riders, so you want to know if there is something that isn't right.

[britx303]

If you race at Daytona,I doubt the inspector will pass you if its not truly permanent......from experience.They are far more thorough and strict there,and I tried something very similar to what you want to try,and ended up having to do some glasswork in the paddock to make it pass,even though what we had was more than adequite in the event of an engine "pop".Regional rounds you "might" be okay,but some days the inspectors at CCS can really be stringent.They do NOT like half@ss jobs on prepping your bike. They will even hold up your pan in the sunlight to look for thin spots in the bottom.If all else fails.....Prep your bike to WERA specs and put a WERA sticker on it,and you will fly through CCS tech.....not kidding

[Mechanikrazy]

Originally Posted by tgold

Not of sound preachy, but I'd suggest you want to be known as "the new guy" when you go through tech for the first time. It's for your safety and the safety of the other riders, so you want to know if there is something that isn't right.

Thanks, tgold! I meant my previous comment only as I didn't want to be known as "That new guy who is sketchy and jerryrigs things." I have no qualms with being the new guy who is learning. Haha.

Originally Posted by britx303

If you race at Daytona,I doubt the inspector will pass you if its not truly permanent......from experience.They are far more thorough and strict there,and I tried something very similar to what you want to try,and ended up having to do some glasswork in the paddock to make it pass,even though what we had was more than adequite in the event of an engine "pop".Regional rounds you "might" be okay,but some days the inspectors at CCS can really be stringent.They do NOT like half@ss jobs on prepping your bike. They will even hold up your pan in the sunlight to look for thin spots in the bottom.If all else fails.....Prep your bike to WERA specs and put a WERA sticker on it,and you will fly through CCS tech.....not kidding

Thanks for the heads up. More thoughts to consider then. Thanks!

[Mohawk]

That lower would not pass UK or European inspection. A bolt in plate would be ok, or even a bolt in rubber gasket for the kickstand area. But it would fail front and rear, I can see your rear tyre through the kickstand hole, so it appears the wall is very shallow at the rear & fluids would overflow on acceleration, plus the wall at the front is also very low & would overflow on the brakes ! Ideally you want both of those areas raised to the maximum height you can & add a turned in lip at the tops to direct any swilling fluids back in. Cross baffle plates would also help but are not required.

Have fun.

[britx303]

It's ok to be the new guy.......and can help with getting through your first weekend. Tech will work with you on temp fixes for the weekend,besides daytona. I wasn't trying to put you off. Keep chugging along,you'll be fine.

[Zaph42]

Originally Posted by britx303

It's ok to be the new guy.......and can help with getting through your first weekend. Tech will work with you on temp fixes for the weekend,besides daytona. I wasn't trying to put you off. Keep chugging along,you'll be fine.

I hate CCS techs. More specifically, I hate one of them, the old crabby one who gets his jollies from rejecting bikes for stupid stuff that doesn't matter. For example: wrong shade of yellow on Amateur plates or numbers 1/2" too small. Yes, I'm serious. This guy is so bad that some people have quit racing because of him. Dear god, don't be "the new guy" and have him, or you may never race. When you are pulling up to the CCS tech building, look for the line with the old guy, then go in the other one.

Now, the rule specific to the OP: current rules say the lowers must be removed for tech inspection. So they aren't actually checked. No matter how big your cutout is, it's not likely to be an issue unless a corner worker black flags you, and that's not likely.

[britx303]

If someone quit racing because of a tech inspector then they weren't much of a racer or committed to the sport to begin with,and they weren't going to last anyways.A wrong shade of yellow is stupid,I agree.......so if it gets to that point,just go to the main race director or k.Elliot himself. There is always a boss above whomever you are dealing with and ultimately it's the racer cutting the check.....not the other way around.

[Zaph42]

I don't have any details on who quit, but it's just something I heard.

Personally I haven't had a problem, but I do avoid the old guy because of what everyone has told me. My bike is probably the most well prepared the techs see all day.

[bruce71198]

CCS tech is probably the easiest tech to get through. Yes you will get a hard time if your stuff isn't up to the task but most of the final decisions are left up to the head tech inspector. The piddly stuff are usually passed and you need to fix them next round. Don't be intimidated by the inspectors, they're all pretty decent guys. That turkey pan will NOT pass CCS tech anymore!

[Mechanikrazy]

Thanks for all your thoughts and comments! I really appreciate the amount of knowledge and support here!

After a bit of thought, and considering that I want to paint the fairings, I'm just going to glass in the cut-out. I don't want to paint the fairings just to end up having to do a trackside fiberglass repair job. If anyone ends up finding this thread because you have the same questions I have, I ended up buying a West Marine 105K repair kit.

I bought cheap used OEM lowers that I'm going to modify a bit (cut the mounting tabs off and enlarge the holes for dzus fasteners) to switch for trackdays when I want the kickstand.

[T11ravis]

Originally Posted by britx303

If all else fails.....Prep your bike to WERA specs and put a WERA sticker on it,and you will fly through CCS tech

That's funny... and believable.
The irony is that I haven't brought a lower up to tech in years. They actually yell if you leave it on!

[britx303]

CCS makes you bring the bellypan with all your gear to tech. Bellypan off though. Its a pain,but nothing a little red wagon and a wife cant make easier

[T11ravis]

I've done a couple CCS races in the past. I did notice quite a few wagons that first weekend. It all made sense Saturday morning.

[britx303]

Yep,my first weekend with them a few years ago I was like"WTF" is up with all the wagons Ya quickly realise on saturday morning