canyon rides

[Blackwidow]

Being a new rider, I have been sticking to streets until I become super duper comfy with the bike...but i'm sort of getting tired of everyone honking at me cuz they think i'm going "too slow" and cutting me off by switching into my lane or even pulling out of a drive way in front of me.

The bf, suggested we hit the canyons, its safer in terms of less cars/traffic. My only fear is the twisty roads, I am not fully comfortable taking turns going more then 35 miles per hour. As experts, what do you think, is it a good idea for a newb to go hit the canyons?

[drowe531]

You don't need to take canyon turns any faster than what you are comforable doing. Its not a bad idea as I'm sure it will be less cars/traffic to have to worry about. I'm sure your bf is going to pressure you to go any quicker than what you feel comfortable with.

[Blackwidow]

thanks David. I think my fear is the cliffs. There is no room for mistakes in the canyons. I've already fell off a cliff once, i don't want it to happen again. :P

[Cuongism]

How many miles do you have now? I believe one of the best ways to improve riding is to follow someone more experienced (you see their lines, their speed, etc). You learn to trust your bike more in those leans.
However, are the cliffs deadly? Here in San Diego, our mountain rides are in Palomar and Julian. Some of the roads are really technical and actually deadly because of the cliffs. There are guardrails, but an average person can actually slide under those guardrails.
Twisties are great fun and since there's not many cars, go at your own pace. You might start out at 20 mph, but you'll soon increase your pace as you get comfortable.
Which mountains are you talking about btw? I'd be interested in trying them out.

[Rosie]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

I've already fell off a cliff once, i don't want it to happen again. :P

Cliffs make me nervous as well.. I know for a fact I don't have enough control to hit tight roads with cliffs yet, but the advantage of less traffic may be helpful.

[tjkamper]

Definately hit the canyons. Take is slow and work on your technique. As you feel more comfortable increase speed. I honestly believe, it is difficult to learn how a bike really works, (counter steer, lean, body position) until moving at a relatively high speed.

At low speeds you can do it wrong and it still works, but at high speeds, you cannot turn without counter steering, and leaning the bike. And it doesn't work well, unless you use the correct body position.

[spooph]

a canyon is a dangerous place to build-up skills on a bike. A lot of hazards. Our canyons are quite dirty, because there is little traffic, traffic doesn't kick all the sand, grime, etc,etc off the road. Not to mention animals. Or blind corners, and what lies behind or cops, or many other things....

However, a canyon is also a great place to build skills, especially if you have a good leader who's riding to your abilities, maybe 10% over, to push you a little, with plenty of stop with Q&A.

A few things:
- You will never be ABSOLUTELY comfortable on a bike. You are currently comfortable riding the bike in traffic, while it's straight up and down, and with a bit of lean around the corners. As you become more comfortable with the bike, the spectrum simply grows, you will become more and more comfortable going faster and faster, leaning more and more. I said that to say this: riding a bike is a life long learning process. What you learn in the twisties might benefit you on the street, I know it has me.

Sounds to me you're not dealing with a bike/experience issue, but maybe a psychological fear of heights, or rather, falling off those heights, from your previous experience. Maybe take a car up the canyon first, and visit the edge, and realize it's only a threat if you go there. Then make sure when you take the bike, you don't go there, eh?

Not trying to lecture or anything, just trying to do my part in my own way. Hope it makes sense. Hope it helps.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

How many miles do you have now? I believe one of the best ways to improve riding is to follow someone more experienced (you see their lines, their speed, etc). You learn to trust your bike more in those leans.
However, are the cliffs deadly? Here in San Diego, our mountain rides are in Palomar and Julian. Some of the roads are really technical and actually deadly because of the cliffs. There are guardrails, but an average person can actually slide under those guardrails.
Twisties are great fun and since there's not many cars, go at your own pace. You might start out at 20 mph, but you'll soon increase your pace as you get comfortable.
Which mountains are you talking about btw? I'd be interested in trying them out.

i clocked in 200 miles on sunday so its still in the break in period unfortunately. Thats another thing that worries me. Would that effect anything?

yes the road can be dangerous. some areas have gaurd rails, others don't. it goes up to 4500ft and the drop is pretty far down.

I'm thinking either hitting the Angeles Crest Mtn or the San Gabriel mtns. its the closest for me without getting on freeways. Ever heard of those mtns?

[drowe531]

lol the breakin on the bike is a whole nother issue as everyone has their opinions on it. Ride it hard, keep it under 6k etc etc.

[Blackwidow]

spooph- to your point- i think i learned all i could learn on the streets, i need to challenge myself to learn new things. I won't learn the new things unless i'm doing it...i'm just so cared of falling down the mtn side. and hearing people on here saying the bike slid on gravel or dirt raises a huge red flag for me. i don't know how to control the bike going over something like that, but then if i don't face it...i won't ever know.

David- whats your take on it? did you buy your bike new? did you ride it hard or keep it under 6k? i keep mine under 7k, and that in itself is hard enough.

[Alex]

Paulette, I'd avoid any even mildly challenging roads for quite awhile longer. At < 1000 miles, and uncomfortable going over 35 mph in any turns, you just haven't had the experience to deal with anything out of the ordinary that could pop up. Certainly the gravel or other obstacle issue, but what if in animal comes across when you aren't expecting it in a corner with zero runoff? Or if someone coming from the other direction spooks you while they get too close to the yellow line? You need to be fully confident in your ability to control the bike without even thinking about it, and you're not there yet. More time, more miles, on roads that you are comfortable with.

[Blackwidow]

i respect that! thanks Alex. Just needed more advice.

thread closed! lol

[drowe531]

To answer your question I bought both my bikes used so i'm no help there.

Good point alex and as being on the other side of the country I don't know how your canyons are. The good twisties around here aren't going to much up in elevation nor dropping off the side.

[kkim]

If you have to ask, you're not ready. learn to ride the bike till riding one is second nature, then start challenging your riding abilities in the canyons.... or better yet, on a track.

[Cuongism]

How comfortable are you at shifting gears, being smooth at the throttle, etc? I think you should feel comfortable with the basics first before hitting those canyons. Ive done LA crest and there's at least 200 turns in about 30 miles. There's also a turn called "Squid's Leap" that's really sharp and riders have gone over. Luckily I was following someone who's done it many times. He also said there's falling rocks and animals in the area.
I would recommend country roads or backroads (do those exist in LA?). You'll be focusing on the basics (shifting, throttling, etc) so you don't want to add any more distractions. Become comfortable at being automatic with your motions where you don't have to think about them anymore.
Has your boyfriend done those canyons before?

[Blackwidow]

i'm pretty comfortable with the throttle, i even made my gear shifting a lot more smoother by learning what and how to blipp. I learned to engine break by down shifting. quick stopping. so i know the basics. But i get weary of twists and or left/right hand turns.

[tinng321]

Originally Posted by drowe531

You don't need to take canyon turns any faster than what you are comforable doing. Its not a bad idea as I'm sure it will be less cars/traffic to have to worry about. I'm sure your bf is going to pressure you to go any quicker than what you feel comfortable with.

+1.
When i ride the twisties I ride to my own ability. NO one is expecting me to ride above my comfort zone. Riding the twisties is more relaxing than riding on the street. The more you ride the more comfortable you'll get and the lean and turn will become a 2nd nature to you.

[tinng321]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

How comfortable are you at shifting gears, being smooth at the throttle, etc? I think you should feel comfortable with the basics first before hitting those canyons. Ive done LA crest and there's at least 200 turns in about 30 miles. There's also a turn called "Squid's Leap" that's really sharp and riders have gone over. Luckily I was following someone who's done it many times. He also said there's falling rocks and animals in the area.
I would recommend country roads or backroads (do those exist in LA?). You'll be focusing on the basics (shifting, throttling, etc) so you don't want to add any more distractions. Become comfortable at being automatic with your motions where you don't have to think about them anymore.
Has your boyfriend done those canyons before?

Dang, I wish I live in CA.

[spooph]

Paulette, you'll be surprised at what you'll learn about in-town riding after you start pushing the bike heavily in the canyons and on the track.

Definitely get the bike broken in though before you go up to the canyons. You don't want the rev limit hanging over your head while you're trying to think of everything else as well..

I bought my bike new, and broke it in proper over the course of 2 weeks, commuting to work and such. When I took it to red-line the first time, I realized what the 250 was all about. Just yesterday, on a back road on my way home from work there's 2 corners, both with speed warning "suggestion" signs - 25mph... I took them comfortably at 65mph. 90 degree right hand turns, if they're clean and smooth, should be an easy 30mph thing.

I'm not saying this to impress anybody, and when stacked up against a racer, they're nothing to write home about, just thought I'd provide you with some quantitative answers to compare to.

I would also recommend you go to a parking lot, and do some "high-speed" circles, until you have your chicken strips completely erased. 35-40mph, not leaning off the bike, scraping pegs on either side will really prepare you for the canyons well.... Once you're comfortable with circles, figure eights are a good way to go as well. I do these exercises maybe once every 2 months, as a bench mark of where I was, and where I want to be.

[kkim]

a sobering reminder of what can happen on a canyon ride, even when you're with people who are looking out for your best interests.

it takes a certain level of skill to negotiate turns in a safe manner. you want the run to end up fun, not a riding career killer.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27075&

[00NissanNinja]

The canyons can be a pretty treacherous especially if you aren't completely used to the bike yet. I would get the bike broken in first so that way you know how to ride the bike at the top of its performance (get used to that first as well). Try to find some uncrowded areas around where you live to get experience first. I didn't hit the canyons till I found myself leaning over more and generally riding the bike as though it was second nature. I had about 2500 on my bike once I headed up there. Also following a more experience rider was helpful to me since I could gauge their entry speed and how they shift.

[KJohnson21]

A lot of great pointers. I have one suggestion to make.

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

The bf, suggested we hit the canyons, its safer in terms of less cars/traffic.

A lot of the LA canyons can be crazy busy on the weekends with squids, racers, car clubs, bike clubs and whatever. There have been a number of times when I was driving a canyon at a mildly aggressive pace and I got passed by a group of squids going twice my speed. Yes, on a narrow two lane road going into a blind corner. They're obviously more familiar with the road, however, safety and common courtesy were the last things on their minds.

For these roads I suggest that you do any sort of learning ride on a week day. Also, familiarize yourself with the options before you try it on your bike. Either go up in your cage or on the back of your BF's bike so that you can see what these roads are like.

(Was that just one? )

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by kkim

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27075&

WOW, that IS a bit scary and what I totally want to avoid.

[Blackwidow]

i tested myself on the steep turns actualy on saturday when I was riding on the back of my bf's bike, he would take turns real fast (but still safely) where the bike leaned pretty low, I was freaking out. i'm just not use to it yet.

Ken- ya i've seen those guys really go nuts on those roads. i'm just not ready for any of that yet. Just thought it was more of a mental thing, but I guess not...i'll wait.

[Ryosen11]

Remember if you go up you have to comeback down eventually and downhill twisties are far more demanding technically, physically and mentally. You should also be comfortable making u-turns in a relatively tight area since roads are tight and no going around a block or through a parking lot in the canyons typically.

When I first started riding on the streets I used to go out very early in the morning to avoid cars...or actually I couldn't wait to go out and I was usually geared up and ready before dawn lol. After riding around town and along the beaches, each time I went to a parking lot nearby and practiced slow stuff before I headed home.

Anyways good luck and ride safe!

[ally99]

I'm with Alex, honestly Paulette. Canyons and mt roads can be VERY tricky. I went on a day trip to the mountains after I'd ridden 500-600 miles (about 3 months after i started riding), and I scraped muffler, yes, muffler. I'm luck as S#%$ that I didn't lose it on that one.
Read Total Control and Twist of the Wrist first. Get more comfortable with regular riding, smooth shifting, hard(er) braking, etc, and then play around in the canyons. If and when you guys do venture that way, you won't go off the cliff if you don't look there! :-) Always look as FAR through the corner as you can. The bike goes where your nose points.
You'll LOVE them, but they can be very tricky, and speaking from someone who tried those kinds of roads before I should have, I was a dumb a$$ for doing so, but I knew no better. I'd wait until around 1,000 miles of regular riding.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Ryosen11

Remember if you go up you have to comeback down eventually and downhill twisties are far more demanding technically, physically and mentally. You should also be comfortable making u-turns in a relatively tight area since roads are tight and no going around a block or through a parking lot in the canyons typically.

When I first started riding on the streets I used to go out very early in the morning to avoid cars...or actually I couldn't wait to go out and I was usually geared up and ready before dawn lol. After riding around town and along the beaches, each time I went to a parking lot nearby and practiced slow stuff before I headed home.

Anyways good luck and ride safe!

good point on the downhill stuff. i love uphill curves, but downhill especially if bumpy, can be a lot tougher.

[CC Cowboy]

Paulette, if you are slow on the street and pissing people off, then being slow in the canyon (where no one can pass) will only be worse.

Don't rush things. Take your time and learn at your own speed, in a safe environment (for you and the others on the road).

[Cali619]

Canyons may have less traffic where your @ but also very technical and a lot of blind turns. If you are not comfortable leaning the bike over it will be tough, but if you do hit a canyon get some knee/shin protection in case you lay the bike down. I speak from experience, I low sided on Mesa Grande coming down from Palomar mountain(locals may know the route) on a group ride. Was just a bit of sand washed onto the road and down I went. Any-who, be very very aggressive when your using the S.E.E. technique, like 10 times more then on a street...

[wtf]

I would hold off on the canyons as others have mentioned. After 700 miles of saddle time, only now I have the courage to even attempt some mild switchbacks (Palos Verdes East) at a safe speed. It took me about 500 miles of learning about throttle control (the jetting helped alot), traffic situations, and looking where you want to go. I'm still a work in progress, though,

The greatest unknown in canyon riding are the road conditions (i.e. debris, dead animals, live animals, opposing traffic), and the blind corners, esp. at the Crest Hwy where all of them exist.

[HorizonXP]

Originally Posted by Cuongism

How many miles do you have now? I believe one of the best ways to improve riding is to follow someone more experienced (you see their lines, their speed, etc). You learn to trust your bike more in those leans.
However, are the cliffs deadly? Here in San Diego, our mountain rides are in Palomar and Julian. Some of the roads are really technical and actually deadly because of the cliffs. There are guardrails, but an average person can actually slide under those guardrails.
Twisties are great fun and since there's not many cars, go at your own pace. You might start out at 20 mph, but you'll soon increase your pace as you get comfortable.
Which mountains are you talking about btw? I'd be interested in trying them out.

I did a 4 month internship in San Diego, and I've driven up to Julian. Absolutely beautiful area. Now that I ride, I want to head that way!

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by spooph

Paulette, you'll be surprised at what you'll learn about in-town riding after you start pushing the bike heavily in the canyons and on the track.

Definitely get the bike broken in though before you go up to the canyons. You don't want the rev limit hanging over your head while you're trying to think of everything else as well..

I bought my bike new, and broke it in proper over the course of 2 weeks, commuting to work and such. When I took it to red-line the first time, I realized what the 250 was all about. Just yesterday, on a back road on my way home from work there's 2 corners, both with speed warning "suggestion" signs - 25mph... I took them comfortably at 65mph. 90 degree right hand turns, if they're clean and smooth, should be an easy 30mph thing.

I'm not saying this to impress anybody, and when stacked up against a racer, they're nothing to write home about, just thought I'd provide you with some quantitative answers to compare to.

I would also recommend you go to a parking lot, and do some "high-speed" circles, until you have your chicken strips completely erased. 35-40mph, not leaning off the bike, scraping pegs on either side will really prepare you for the canyons well.... Once you're comfortable with circles, figure eights are a good way to go as well. I do these exercises maybe once every 2 months, as a bench mark of where I was, and where I want to be.

I think that parking lots are great place to practice. You have enough room to try almost anything and dont have the traffic to be bothered with. Even if you slip, you will most likely just slide on the asphalt and scratch the bike and your clothes. And thats much better then hitting a wall or falling off a cliff. Its even fun in some crazy way
If you are afraid of leaning in, maybe you are holding on to the bike with your hands too tight, and are too stiff on your seat. Just relax, and use your body to tell the bike where to go. Keep relaxed, and speed and lean angle will come in time. Surprisingly quickly probably. Good luck!

[SVBS]

This is what I did with my ex, I recon the around the city, looking for industrial area, those are perfect training ground at night :biggrin:, i'm lucky our area also have mild twisties as well, so she's comfortable with leaning a little at 50mph+, I wouldn't hit the canyon just yet,

[Havok]

Originally Posted by wtf

I would hold off on the canyons as others have mentioned. After 700 miles of saddle time, only now I have the courage to even attempt some mild switchbacks (Palos Verdes East) at a safe speed. It took me about 500 miles of learning about throttle control (the jetting helped alot), traffic situations, and looking where you want to go. I'm still a work in progress, though,

The greatest unknown in canyon riding are the road conditions (i.e. debris, dead animals, live animals, opposing traffic), and the blind corners, esp. at the Crest Hwy where all of them exist.

I ride pvd east all the time to practice my turns and position. I live and work close by so it's a quick run for a quick twisty.

[Agustin]

First, you will find that cagers are for the most part oblivious to motorcyclists. Regardless of whether I am on the Ninja or R1 I always get that idiot that wants to cut me off or race me. It's part of being a motorcyclist on a sportbike. I believe you need more saddle time to feel more comfortable on the street, everyone is in such a rush to get to the canyons it seems. Please take your time learning and the speed will come, believe me it will. The canyons are not a place to practice anything. If you truly want to build up your skills fast, try a track day. A friend of mine, female by the way, did this on her 250 and learned what she and her bike could do. She now rides canyons when she has the time.

[Havok]

You can ride canyons as long as you stick to your comfort level. I have not had my 250 long and it is my first sort bike, I have about 3G miles on it and have been up the canyons 3 times with this Saturday vein my 4th time.

The trick is ride your ride at your pace. Do not feel pressured to go faster then you are comfortable with. If people come up behind you still go at your pace, when you get to a straight slow down pull to the right and flash the peace sign as they go by. Go only as fast as you can see and take as many rest breaks as you need.

For us head up baldy first see how you like it And what you think it's two lanes and not technical so a great first run, then ACH, Malibu with GMR and Ridge being the most technical so avoid them till you are really comfortable!

[gitoy]

hey havok!!!...

i think i saw you a few times on pvde, black & green 250...if you see a blue and green 250, it is me, i.....i live on colt rd so i have over 10k miles this year on pvde...

[Havok]

Originally Posted by gitoy

hey havok!!!...

i think i saw you a few times on pvde, black & green 250...if you see a blue and green 250, it is me, i.....i live on colt rd so i have over 10k miles this year on pvde...

That would be me for sure, I am all over te south bay on my bike lol. I'll keep an eye out for you

[Havok]

Oh and one more piece of advice for canyon riding BE WELL RESTED! 3 or 4 hours riding the canyons is very tiring! It will sap your strength!

[gitoy]

yes, palos verdes drive east...just be on the lookout for deputy knox, especially on weekends...at the first turnout going up the switchbacks, and the stretch of road by marymount college...anything over 45 gets a ticket...

what happened to nachoninjas post?...