Recovered from front tuck, avoided first lowside - but how?

[dooby]

Hi guys,

commute home was made much more interesting as an unexpected rain shower had passed through, leaving the roads a little damp and greasy.

I was coming up on my nemesis corner, a 90 degree right (remembering we ride on the left in the UK) where the entire road's camber seems to slope to the inside.

I noticed from the previous corner it was greasy and there were some leaves so I made a note to aim for less than the 20mph I usually aim for in the dry.

Then somehow failed to do that, and came in doing 20mph. I was leant over, hanging off and within my lane when the front wheel started to slide towards the outside of the corner.

I remember thinking not "oh shoot oh shoot oh shoot" but more "oh, that's annoying". I believe I held the throttle steady and kept my left knee wedged into the tank. I think I tried not to tense up on the bars, but I must have instinctively done something as she came back to me and we rode out of the corner.

I would quite like to know what that was - it felt instinctive and I lol'd in my helmet in gladness I wasn't picking bits of bike off the tarmac but the nagging feeling is I don't know whether I would repeatably take the same action in the same circumstance as I don't know exactly what I did :-/

Can someone remind me of the physics here, what is it that saves a front tuck? Sat here doodling angles it *feels* like pushing the right bar would wash out further, therefore (if there is still traction available) pushing the left bar is like "turning into the skid" in a car. Have I got that the right way round? Is that the likely scenario for the save, that I instinctively turned the bars the way they needed to go to exit the front skid?

I feel I need more seat time and experience in damp greasy conditions.

Cheers, Pete

EDIT: It's here (if the link works) - I was heading west

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=52...21.643066&z=20

[akima]

Eep. Nice save. Glad you made it round ok. I can't offer any advice on that situation. I think your steady throttle and being light on the bars probably helped you out a lot though!

I can say that I've felt more planted on the road since switching over to the Diablo Rosso II tyres. IIRC you're still riding stock tyres.

[Lychee]

Sometimes doing nothing and simply waiting to regain traction is the correct course of action.

[csmith12]

^^^ this "Take control by doing nothing".

Buy someones rain day track day for cheap and you will get your seat time in a safer environment to work on those skillz.

[dooby]

Originally Posted by Lychee

Sometimes doing nothing and simply waiting to regain traction is the correct course of action.

Your sig was right, I *did* find that post useful :-) Can't actually rate it though :-(

Yes, I hadn't considered that perhaps I didn't do anything except keep steady and that was all the bike needed to keep going. That would certainly explain why I don't know what I did...

Good idea about a rainy track day Chris, though as akima says I'd probably better move off the IRCs first. I may also investigate frame sliders etc. - it's probably irrational but it feels (even) more likely I'd lowside at a rainy track. Which is probably untrue as if anything I guess it's a more predictable environment if you have the willpower not to push it too far...

[cuong-nutz]

Yes, very easy to lowside in wet conditions

[JohnnyBravo]

The whole not tensing up and letting the bike come back on its own is what I would say saved your tail, an I'm glad it did
Best crash stories are the I didn't crash stories. If you would have panicked I'm sure you woulda lost it instead of saving it kudos sir kudos

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by dooby

...........Can someone remind me of the physics here, what is it that saves a front tuck? Sat here doodling angles it *feels* like pushing the right bar would wash out further, therefore (if there is still traction available) pushing the left bar is like "turning into the skid" in a car. Have I got that the right way round?...........

Three things could have happened:

a) No steering input and the contact patch found a zone of higher coefficient of friction and returned to a condition of static friction, resuming pure rolling.

b) Unconscious left hand input made the tire roll into the slide, reducing its lateral force and returning to a condition of static friction (running wide for as long as regaining traction took).

c) A and B combined.

Steering away from the slide (trying tightening the turn) is the normal survival reaction, but that puts a higher lateral load on the already overwhelmed contact patch.

Cars and trucks dump more oil and diesel on the exterior section of the turns; hence, your right turns will always be more dangerous than your left turns on roads of double direction.

More elegant solution is d): slowing down for slippery conditions !!!

[Misti]

Sounds like you instinctively did the right thing You didn't panic and hit the brakes or chop the throttle which would have put extra weight on the front tire and surly landed you in the dirt. You didn't tense up which can cause excess input into the bars and it sounds like you didn't target fixate on the ground either, all of which would have made the situation worse.

What most likely saved your butt was the fact that you kept rolling on the gas which would have transferred some extra weight off the front tire and helped it to regain traction. You may also have unconsciously pressed on the left bar which would have countersteered the bike back upright and reduced overall lean angle.

Anytime you begin to have a front tire slide the best course of action is to try to get the bike more upright, remain relaxed and continue to hold the throttle or roll it on. I hope that helps clarify things for you a little bit.

What about a rear end slide? What should you do if the other tire starts sliding in the wet?

Misti

[akima]

Originally Posted by Misti

What about a rear end slide? What should you do if the other tire starts sliding in the wet?

Bring bike upright using counter steering (as per front brake slide) in order to increase traction.

Maintain or gently roll off throttle in order to transfer weight forward, making the front wheel take more of the traction requirements.

Do not chop the throttle hard (highside), do not increase throttle (lowside), do not lean further into the turn (lowside).

?

Disclaimer: answers above are from a noobie who hasn't once experienced reaching traction limits.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by akima

Bring bike upright using counter steering (as per front brake slide) in order to increase traction.

Maintain or gently roll off throttle in order to transfer weight forward, making the front wheel take more of the traction requirements.

Do not chop the throttle hard (highside), do not increase throttle (lowside), do not lean further into the turn (lowside).

?

Disclaimer: answers above are from a noobie who hasn't once experienced reaching traction limits.

Love the disclaimer Your answer's are bang on though so even though you haven't experienced a slide you seem to know what to do. Now, it's one thing to know what to do but another thing to actually do it when the situation arrises. How do you think you could train yourself to react properly? Are there ways to practice without much risk?

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by Misti

Now, it's one thing to know what to do but another thing to actually do it when the situation arrises. How do you think you could train yourself to react properly? Are there ways to practice without much risk?

Experience is the best teacher but the street isn't necessarily the best classroom if you want to learn in a minimal risk setting. You can still learn from a genuine "oh ****" moment on the road but again, you want to avoid those rather than invite them. A riding school would be best where conditions are more controlled and you have experienced people to supervise and critique.

Aside from that, I think visualizing what you should do if encountered with a situation can help. At least it did for me this weekend when my cold rear tire started to slide around. I did what I visualized I should and avoided making a bad situation worse. I think visualizing helps to avoid the panic which can set off those unwanted survival reactions. If you see it happen in your mind first you might be a bit less surprised when it actually does happen.

[tooblekain]

Originally Posted by Misti

Now, it's one thing to know what to do but another thing to actually do it when the situation arrises. How do you think you could train yourself to react properly? Are there ways to practice without much risk?

Simple (and it's tooting the horn)---go to CSS and practice this on the bike that has outriggers on it with the ground wet.

[alex.s]

dirtbike is really good too

[choneofakind]

FWIW, my experience with almost losing the front is from not giving a firm enough roll-on. I've done it once on the street on a wet left-hander when I was being cautious, and once on track on a very off-camber left hander at Mid-Ohio where I was being cautious because I was already running wide. So from my experience, staying loose (like you did) is very helpful, but so is a proper roll-on through the turn. Make sure you keep it planted with a good roll-on and you'll hopefully never feel the front let loose like this again.

[dooby]

Lots of useful posts, thanks.

I could believe I didn't have a strongly committed throttle roll on, especially in a corner of which I am cautious.

I love the idea of the outrigger bike, I may look into the UK version of the superbike school.

And dirt biking, eh? My friend is trying to convince me we should get some 300cc GasGas 2 strokes and give trials a go. Hmm... I wonder whether that could be a useful (and fun) learning experience...

Cheers, Pete

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by dooby

Hmm... I wonder whether that could be a useful (and fun) learning experience...

Useful - check
Fun - check
Good times with friends - priceless

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by alex.s

dirtbike is really good too

Yea I was going to say racing tt or flat track will keep you staying on the gas when the front starts to go. I'm constantly tucking the front and chopping the throttle is a great way to end your race.

[adouglas]

Something I experienced yesterday got me thinking about this "front tuck" phenomenon. I realized I'm not entirely sure what it is.

Can someone describe what it feels like?

Here's why I ask. I was going around a corner the other day and it suddenly felt like the bike wanted to fall in faster than I was asking it to. Normally the bike is stable through the turn, as I do my normal accelerate through. This time it felt like it was falling.

It was decidedly odd because I don't recall experiencing that before, and I've been riding a very long time. Of course, I may just not be remembering.

No real drama... it only lasted a moment... but it got my attention.

Was that a "front tuck?" Was I simply flicking too aggressively/leaning too far for the power had?

[choneofakind]

The front slides and skids, the bars shake and shimmy and then abruptly turns toward the inside and skids till you fall.

Trust me, you'll know when it starts, your whole bike shakes and shimmies along with it. Hang on, lemme find my video

Edit: go to 2:35

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Motofool]

The natural resistance of the handlebar suddenly disappears, the bike starts under-steering and increasing lean angle, which induce a natural reaction to steer harder, which worsens the front slide.
Decelerating worsens the situation.
All happens in very short time.

Originally Posted by adouglas

..........I was going around a corner the other day and it suddenly felt like the bike wanted to fall in faster than I was asking it to. Normally the bike is stable through the turn, as I do my normal accelerate through. This time it felt like it was falling.........

How did you stop it?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Something I experienced yesterday got me thinking about this "front tuck" phenomenon. I realized I'm not entirely sure what it is.

Can someone describe what it feels like?

Originally Posted by Motofool

The natural resistance of the handlebar suddenly disappears.

^^^ this is pretty close, but for a SS rider, a whole handful of throttle can induce the same feeling. Think wheelie on corner exit.

The other BIG clue is the bars will want to turn inward (to the inside of the corner) on their own. Chatter is normally part of it as well, depending on how the tire is breaking traction it can be subtle or violent. This is the VERY EDGE of a front tuck and your VERY LAST chance to save it. At this point, you better get the bike more upright and do it FAST. Depending on your bike setup, tire compound, surface and other environmental conditions, this happens in an instant or it can last a second or two. For example; on the rosso II's on my bike on a dry, clean track. I get just over a second of warning and can save it just about every time by simply running the bike a bit wide by getting it more upright and pausing the throttle roll for a very brief moment.

[csmith12]

And one last thing to NOTE on this subject. The tighter on the bars you are, the faster the front is gunna tuck. Stay frosty but loose.

[akima]

Originally Posted by csmith12

For example; on the rosso II's on my bike on a dry, clean track. I get just over a second of warning and can save it just about every time by simply running the bike a bit wide by getting it more upright and pausing the throttle roll for a very brief moment.

Pause roll on or roll off (not sure what part of the corner you're picturing)?

Why do you do this?

Nice to hear the rosso II's behave favourably! I have them.

How do you find them in the wet on the track?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

.........At this point, you better get the bike more upright and do it FAST..........

I have never been able to recover from a serious front slide; it has been like an instantaneous crash-boom-bang (on wet pavement).

My theoretical question to you Chris and anyone else with racing experience: getting the bike more upright seems contradictory as it requires counter-steering (turning the bar a little more into the turn, but your pivot point against the pavement is as firm as butter and moving away from under you).

And if you easy the turn by straighten the bars some, the rubber may re-grip but the bike reads that input as counter-steering and tries to lean more, exactly what we don't need.

Gassing-up should help, but the rear tire should not be far from its traction's limit due to the lean angle-traction conditions (that put the front tire in trouble) and too much of that may induce a rear slide (maybe having both tires sliding at once could easy the problem with the front?).

I don't really know the answer to that dilemma.
What the steering does naturally to correct the problem when we don't interfere much?
Maybe a combination of the following in quick succession?

1. Straighten-the-bars-some (regain traction-induce more lean), then ....
2. Counter-steer (effective now due to re-gained traction), then ....
3. Getting-the-bike-more-upright (run wide but improve traction-induce less lean), then .....
4. Slowing down a bit, then .....
5. Counter-steer as normal and resume the turn

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by akima

Pause roll on or roll off (not sure what part of the corner you're picturing)?

Why do you do this?

Nice to hear the rosso II's behave favourably! I have them.

How do you find them in the wet on the track?

I pause, not roll off or chop it, that = bad news.
Why do I do this? To not add to the problem with even more speed. I don't know the science behind it all, but the way I figger... lean + traction + speed + other fancy science stuff may = loss of front traction. If I can remove one of the major factors simply and without a thought, I do. It works for me, ymmv ya know.

Honestly, they are not all that good on the tracks I go to in the wet. They slip and side around a bit but with super smooth inputs, they do hold. If you ignore the warnings and add in more speed, BOOM you crash. I have found they are just fine at street pace.

Hope that answers your questions.

EDIT: Let me get back to you in a bit Hernan

[akima]

@csmith12: I asked, because it was my understanding that continuing, initiating or intensifying a roll on is a smart course of action when experiencing a front wheel slide. It [as far as I know] has the effect of transferring more of the weight to the rear tyre and subsequently handing off more of the burden of gripping to the road, to the rear tyre.

Maybe something went over my head.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The natural resistance of the handlebar suddenly disappears, the bike starts under-steering and increasing lean angle, which induce a natural reaction to steer harder, which worsens the front slide.
Decelerating worsens the situation.
All happens in very short time.



How did you stop it?

That sounds like it... I got this sudden adrenaline rush as the bike tried to fall further into the turn and in the next few heartbeats it was over with.

What did I do? Happened so fast I'm not sure. Definitely too fast to assess, think of a reaction and execute.

I probably just kept doing what I was doing, which was maintain/accelerate through the corner. I didn't chop or do anything sudden.

This did not happen at high speed. Suburban road. Was going maybe 25-30 mph, tops.

[adouglas]

@choneofakind... Seems similar but mine was far less dramatic because I was at a much lower speed. A sudden HUT! and it was over.

[TheDementedDrummer]

Originally Posted by akima

@csmith12: I asked, because it was my understanding that continuing, initiating or intensifying a roll on is a smart course of action when experiencing a front wheel slide. It [as far as I know] has the effect of transferring more of the weight to the rear tyre and subsequently handing off more of the burden of gripping to the road, to the rear tyre.

Maybe something went over my head.

I dunno if this actually makes sense or no, but rolling on would reduce the load on the front tyre, which would in turn reduce the size of the contact patch on the road, and reduce available traction, which is already practically all used up.
It kinda sounds okay in my head, but yeah i dunno.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by adouglas

@choneofakind... Seems similar but mine was far less dramatic because I was at a much lower speed. A sudden HUT! and it was over.

Sounds like it.

Fun fact, you can hear my knee and toe scraping in that video when the front tries to tuck. Kinda jammed my outside toes into the peg when that happened.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by TheDementedDrummer

I dunno if this actually makes sense or no, but rolling on would reduce the load on the front tyre, which would in turn reduce the size of the contact patch on the road, and reduce available traction, which is already practically all used up.
It kinda sounds okay in my head, but yeah i dunno.

Your reasoning about the area is correct, Neel, but not about the overall result.

If your assumption were fully correct, the recommended 40/60 rule for weight distribution would be in contradiction with it.

......... or the front would slide just before a leaned wheelie.

The point is that as we transfer weight over one tire (CG moves aft or forward), we also transfer the percentage of the lateral force that the tire is feeling, not only the vertical force.

As I see it, keeping the recommended moderate acceleration during a turn, discharges the front contact patch some from both forces (vertical and horizontal) and puts that load on the rear contact patch, which is bigger and has higher capacity for that load.
As a bonus, the suspension re-adjusts to achieve the best stability and ground clearance during the turn.

Yes, with more or less weight on the contact patch, the area of contact grows or shrinks some, but it cannot change as much as the vertical load or force applied on the patch.
That means that if you double the load, the area does not double.
Furthermore, the area has much less influence on traction than the vertical force.
Reduce area in half and you may reduce traction in 10%; reduce vertical force in half and you reduce traction at least 50%.

The vertical force can be drastically reduced while the lateral force remains the same (bad because traction is reduced but not lateral force) when rolling over road imperfections that the suspension cannot follow impeccably: the crests are the killers because the tire and the weight that it supports float for fractions of seconds.

...........or so I believe

[csmith12]

Ah, I see what is going on here. My bad, I am not being clear enough and assuming too much.

What I assumed....
Imma be blunt here, most little or HUT type of slides of the front or rear are just simply not that big of a deal. You just roll right through em as normal. This is where my first comment/quote in this thread lives, "Take control by doing nothing - K. Code". The front will slide in and out like a yoyo and if you just ignore it will be just fine. That is NOT a tuck, that is just a bit of sliding. So yea, just roll on and go. But do make note of it, because it is a clue that something is up. @akima – I think this is where your understanding is.

Where my throttle pause lives (a lot of riders call this maintenance throttle)
Due to my track/race riding, I have learned that eventually, there may come a time during those little slides suddenly become something more. And hopefully that didn't put you on your bum so you can reflect on WHY you are getting slides in the front in the first place. Going too fast? Trail braking too deep? Not smooth? Steering corrections? Something else? Main thing is to try to determine if it’s the rider's fault or not. IE an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Now take this example; Take a given corner, with perfect conditions, perfect rider input for cornering on a perfectly set up bike at a rate of speed that would break the front contact patch and not break the rear, after all it’s the smaller of the two right. If your pace though the corner is greater than the tire's ability to maintain grip, then adding more speed alone isn't gunna help. Unless.... you can get the front wheel TOTTALY OFF the ground, IE wheelie, if the front is supporting any weight at all, your gunna fall. Wheelieing an exit is something the 250 is not gunna do or the street rider wouldn’t try to contemplate wheelieing a SS mid-corner. What a 250 CAN do is, try to complete a corner at a pace is greater than the tire's abilities. Simply put and assuming crashing is not the preferred option, something has to give. Or even worse, your already pinned and there is no roll on left. Ever cornered so hard that the 250 won’t accelerate you forward for a brief moment? Either the soft frame flexes or the tires give up traction.

So in my mind anyway and a bit of experience... Even if you get the bike more upright to stop the slide and go wide, when you try to get back to your intended line, now even faster because you stayed on the throttle... What is gunna happen? Yea.... Same front slides as before, except maybe even worse. Seems just much simpler to pause the roll on, regain 100% control and continue where you left off.

Real Talk
I think now is a good time to drop this bomb. We all say the 250 is very forgiving bike and yes... I agree. But here is the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde part. Near the 250's upper limits, it's a very unstable machine when compared to its bigger brothers. Yet this is another good teaching attribute of the 250. Due to its lighter weight and what not, she responses to corrective inputs very well. During a race, I sometimes feel I am going to crash on every corner. I feel it's not always me because I can hop on my R6 and go even faster through the same corner that gave me poor feedback while riding the ninja. Sorting out the poor feedback vs. the your gunna crash feedback is the secret sauce to identifying a front tuck and knowing when to try to correct it or ignore it.

Feel free to ask about anything detailed or specific and I will do my best or maybe Misti can point us in the right direction as I can only speak from experience.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

..........I can only speak from experience.

............which most of us haven't had.



".......And suddenly I realized that I was no longer driving the car consciously. I was driving it by a kind of instinct, only I was in a different dimension............Then suddenly something just kicked me. I kind of woke up and realized that I was in a different atmosphere than you normally are. My immediate reaction was to back off, slow down..........These things bring you to reality as to how fragile you are; at the same moment you are doing something that nobody else is able to do. The same moment that you are seen as the best, the fastest and somebody that cannot be touched, you are enormously fragile..............The danger sensation is exciting. The challenge is to find new dangers." - Ayrton Senna

[Misti]

Originally Posted by dooby

Lots of useful posts, thanks.

I could believe I didn't have a strongly committed throttle roll on, especially in a corner of which I am cautious.

I love the idea of the outrigger bike, I may look into the UK version of the superbike school.

And dirt biking, eh? My friend is trying to convince me we should get some 300cc GasGas 2 strokes and give trials a go. Hmm... I wonder whether that could be a useful (and fun) learning experience...

Cheers, Pete

Sounds about right in terms of the throttle. Many riders coast through turns or crack on the gas but don't continue to ROLL IT ON. You absolutely need the roll on in order to transfer the weight off the front and onto the rear.

Yes, you should def check out the Superbike School in the UK. Great fun, great learning experience and you will come away a much better rider

Dirtbiking is great for getting used to feeling the front and rear tires sliding around and for practicing throttle control and recovering from these slides in a less terrifying environment. I used to just fly up and down logging roads in order to practice sliding around so that I was less freaked out when it happened on my streetbike.

Originally Posted by adouglas

Something I experienced yesterday got me thinking about this "front tuck" phenomenon. I realized I'm not entirely sure what it is.

Can someone describe what it feels like?

Here's why I ask. I was going around a corner the other day and it suddenly felt like the bike wanted to fall in faster than I was asking it to. Normally the bike is stable through the turn, as I do my normal accelerate through. This time it felt like it was falling.

It was decidedly odd because I don't recall experiencing that before, and I've been riding a very long time. Of course, I may just not be remembering.

No real drama... it only lasted a moment... but it got my attention.

Was that a "front tuck?" Was I simply flicking too aggressively/leaning too far for the power had?

I just posted an article about this exact topic, front end feel and exploring the traction limits of the front tire on my new blog. You can find it here: http://www.motomom.ca/the-limit-expl...tire-traction/

Hope you enjoy and I hope it answers some of your questions! There is also a fantastic article about Keith Code and some stories about being a coach with the Superbike School!

[akima]

@Misti: is this the UK school you are recommending? http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/

I know that there are many things that make riding a superbike different to riding a small displacement sports bike. I also know that there are many things that remain the same between riding the two bikes. Would going to this school on a non-superbike (ala the ninjette!) mean I come away with less than someone who went on a superbike?

Also... I love your posts! I very much appreciate the time you've put into this forum. I'm certain I'm not the only one.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

...........I just posted an article about this exact topic, front end feel and exploring the traction limits of the front tire on my new blog. You can find it here: http://www.motomom.ca/the-limit-expl...tire-traction/

Thank you much, Misti !!!

It is like racing from the safety of my chair.

You should write a book one day, your writting style is precise and gentle.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by akima

@Misti: is this the UK school you are recommending? http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/

I know that there are many things that make riding a superbike different to riding a small displacement sports bike. I also know that there are many things that remain the same between riding the two bikes. Would going to this school on a non-superbike (ala the ninjette!) mean I come away with less than someone who went on a superbike?

Also... I love your posts! I very much appreciate the time you've put into this forum. I'm certain I'm not the only one.

Thank you very much and Yes, that is the school I'm recommending I hope you make it there one day, you won't regret it!!

Originally Posted by Motofool

Thank you much, Misti !!!

It is like racing from the safety of my chair.

You should write a book one day, your writting style is precise and gentle.

Thank you very much!!!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

..........Thank you very much!!!

You are very welcome

Last night, I also did read the rest that your Motomom site shows.

If you write it in English some day, I happily offer translating it into Spanish for free.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You are very welcome

Last night, I also did read the rest that your Motomom site shows.

If you write it in English some day, I happily offer translating it into Spanish for free.

Thank you, thank you. I have many projects in mind, I just need to find some time I appreciate your support very much!