September 5th, 2017, 03:21 PM | #41 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
|
I'm a bit reluctant to urge you along (via keyboard tuning) but submit you could both improve MPG while maintaining performance.
Not to "rub it in"...but my 900SS Ducati yields 50MPG. I know your 250 can do way better than 38. Also, in view of your ignition coil mods...reluctant to urge you doing too many changes at a given time... Can you confirm you've got adequate valve clearances? Checked within service manual recommended mileage interval? A very important prerequisite.
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com Custom Carb Service www.customcarbservices.com |
|
September 5th, 2017, 10:40 PM | #42 |
"a legend in my own mind"
Name: maverick9611
Location: Augusta,Georgia
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Feb '18
|
this was a ebay bike had only 4400 miles. it has 5100 on it now. when i was pulling carbs, i noticed the carb screws top/bottom and rack screws were tampered with to the point of being stripped out. (i replaced with socket head)all i figure is the bike sat for along time and someone went into carbs. i replace the 98's with 100's. I was under the assumption while reading about the ninja that it was set up incredibly lean for emissions. maybe i was wrong. i'll have to think out my next move.
__________________________________________________
"trying not to get old" |
|
September 6th, 2017, 12:05 AM | #43 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
That's true, they are lean at idle and up to about 33% throttle below 6000 RPMs. That's barely getting into main jet territory. But at 100% WOT above 8000 RPMs or so, mixtures are extremely rich.
I need to connect my wideband to get more accurate data. Perhaps hook up TPS to datalogue throttle. |
|
September 6th, 2017, 12:27 AM | #44 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Kawasaki 250 Ninja, 1982 Honda Ascot FT500 Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
Bill
__________________________________________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time. |
|
|
September 6th, 2017, 04:32 AM | #45 | |
"a legend in my own mind"
Name: maverick9611
Location: Augusta,Georgia
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Feb '18
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
"trying not to get old" |
|
|
September 6th, 2017, 05:25 AM | #46 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
|
^ neither does your acknowledged excessive fuel consumption.
I see you've avoided answering the valve clearance question......? Perhaps other nefarious forces influencing? "i'll have to think out my next move." If I may suggest....although I'm telling you something you don't want to hear...a valve clearance check should top your options. ...regardless of mileage, lineage of bike, carbs, plugs....check the valve clearances before proceeding any further.
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com Custom Carb Service www.customcarbservices.com |
|
September 6th, 2017, 05:52 AM | #47 |
"a legend in my own mind"
Name: maverick9611
Location: Augusta,Georgia
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Feb '18
|
unfortunately your right.
__________________________________________________
"trying not to get old" |
|
September 6th, 2017, 06:14 AM | #48 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
|
valves an integral part of tuning procedure....comes with the territory of ownership....
You could be worse off...accessing on my Honda VFR800 V4 (gear driven cams) is a long, complex ordeal. I usually dedicate 2 separate, long sessions to accomplish. Then o'course, you got to be a Doctor of Desmodromics to do my Ducatis, a completely different ball game there. They've just got to be checked/adjusted....eliminated as a factor... endlessly chasing ghosts not a fun alternative either. It'll ultimately pay off in satisfaction, peace of mind, performance.
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com Custom Carb Service www.customcarbservices.com |
|
September 6th, 2017, 06:14 AM | #49 |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
|
Read this article - https://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%...k%20Plugs.html
"Jetting = the air/fuel mixture ratio shows up on the base ring (the last thread ring, it has the strap welded to it). You want a full turn of light soot color on the base ring!!! If you want to tune for max. power, then you want 3/4 to 7/8ths of a full turn of light soot color to show up on the base ring, but this is on ragged-edge of being too lean, but will make the most HP on most engines. To be safe, leave it at a full turn of light soot color. If the base ring has a full turn of color, but there are "spots" of heavy build-up of "dry soot" on top of color, then jetting is too rich . NOTE> If the base ring has a full turn of color with some spots of heavy dry soot, then jetting is too rich, REGARDLESS, if the porcelain is "BONE-WHITE", jetting is still TOO RICH !!! NOTE> Do not look at the porcelain to read jetting !!!" I'd say they are rich overall. The plug is showing an average of all the jetting, not just the main jet. I don't see any reason you should need a richer main jet than the original, which, as previously noted, is generally considered too rich in the first place. |
|
September 6th, 2017, 06:21 AM | #50 | |
"a legend in my own mind"
Name: maverick9611
Location: Augusta,Georgia
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Feb '18
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
"trying not to get old" |
|
|
September 6th, 2017, 03:32 PM | #51 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Problem is it's difficult to determine:
- how much time was spent at each throttle-opening (10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, etc.) - how much time was spent at each RPM-range (1000-rpms, 2000-rpms, 3000-rpms, etc.) - how much time was spent at each 3D point on fueling map (throttle X RPM) You've got an accumulated and weighted average that's speaking in generalized terms. You're looking at changing main-jets, but it's very likely those plugs are only reflecting 10% of main-jet usage. While majority of operating-time was using idle & low-speed circuits. Here's an example of lean low-end and rich top-end: Note the mid-range rich dip that robs some torque. Leaning out the mixture across-the-board regains some of that mid-range and boosts top-end power. But... it also leaned out already lean low-end even more. To flatten out this fuel-mixture curve we'd need to adjust pilot-screws to richen low-end and perhaps CNC custom needle to remove mid-range dip. Then adjust top-end with main-jets. Which is where EFI comes in as you can tune extremely precisely in 500rpm increments or less. And very quickly with just a couple mouse-clicks. This tune was done in less than 30-minutes. NA engines make max-power around 13.0-13.5:1 AFR. Seeing that both carbed and EFI versions have lean low-end with rich top-end would seem to indicate this was done intentionally. Lean low-end most likely for emissions testing and EPA MPG test-cycle. Top-end richness for safety against detonation and melted pistons; albeit sacrificing power as well. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 6th, 2017 at 09:48 PM. |
|
September 6th, 2017, 03:48 PM | #52 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
Quote:
Pilot-screws are 2.75-turns out on both bikes where they're most responsive. More or less and they tend to be more rubbery. Earlier plug-comparison was back-to-back sessions at Thunderhill several months ago. Both bikes went 20-minutes on East course with ~90% of that time at WOT between 9000-13000rpms. Not sure I can get more identical operating conditions than that. Stock bike spent all its time in the super-rich top-end zone (1st dyno-chart above). Without any flow-increasing mods, it was even richer than the 12.0:1 AFR recorded on that chart, probably in the 10.0-11.0:1 range. Plugs would seem to show that, if not even richer. I looked in Dyno-jet kit box and Stg-2 needles with 3-grooves for circlips are still in there. So I've got stock needles in race-bike with no washers. Gonna hook up the wideband and see how my AFR really compares to those charts above. |
|
|
September 6th, 2017, 04:30 PM | #53 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
The MSDS says the worst ingredient has an oral LDlo (lowest concentration reported to be lethal in humans or animals) of 5 ml/kg. So an 80 kg person would have to drink 400 ml of the stuff for it to be fatal. That's more than 13 ounces.
|
|
September 6th, 2017, 09:37 PM | #54 | |
"a legend in my own mind"
Name: maverick9611
Location: Augusta,Georgia
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Feb '18
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
"trying not to get old" |
|
|
September 7th, 2017, 05:27 AM | #55 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
|
Maverick-
So, the big question....how many miles since your last valve check? don't blow off the valve adjustment nor disregard its effects... common knowledge these 250's critically sensitive to tight clearances If last known service interval dictates...i'd yet again suggest checking BEFORE commencing with any other changes
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com Custom Carb Service www.customcarbservices.com |
|
September 7th, 2017, 05:49 AM | #56 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Kawasaki 250 Ninja, 1982 Honda Ascot FT500 Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
Bill
__________________________________________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time. |
|
|
September 7th, 2017, 06:07 AM | #57 | |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
|
Quote:
The normal set-up for a stock engine is 2.5 turns out on the Idle Mixture Screws with the stock Pilot Jet, 1 or 2 washers under the needle, and possibly a 1-step leaner Main Jet. |
|
|
September 7th, 2017, 07:13 AM | #58 | |
"a legend in my own mind"
Name: maverick9611
Location: Augusta,Georgia
Join Date: May 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2015 moto guzzi norge(brownie),2020 aprilia dorsoduro, Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Feb '18
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
"trying not to get old" |
|
|
September 7th, 2017, 07:44 PM | #59 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
The pre-gen and new-gens have completely different jetting specs. So don't get them mixed up. And it's possible to be both too rich AND too lean on SAME bike. It's a matter of where in the operating-zones the mixtures are rich and lean. Thus the adjustments needed will vary as well.
Aside from the valve-clearance check, I'm not sure if main-jet changes would do much for your MPG. You may get better results from adjusting pilot-screws. Those plugs look rich, but not as rich as my street-bike under WOT. |
|
September 7th, 2017, 08:55 PM | #60 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Bill
Location: Port Huron, Michigan
Join Date: Mar 2017 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Kawasaki 250 Ninja, 1982 Honda Ascot FT500 Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
Bill
__________________________________________________
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results each time. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[RideApart] - 6 Bad Ass American Military Bikes | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | May 30th, 2014 10:10 AM |
[superbikeplanet.com] - Yep, MotoGP Bikes Are Bad-Ass | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | June 10th, 2013 03:10 PM |
Too much ethanol is bad for your bike | DaBlue1 | General Motorcycling Discussion | 2 | August 16th, 2012 07:53 AM |
10 Bad Ideas that Made Great Bikes | patw | General Motorcycling Discussion | 12 | December 2nd, 2011 06:47 AM |
[hell for leather] - Why blowjobs are bad for bikes | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | April 8th, 2011 07:10 PM |
|
|