Help! Won't run.

[xaple]

Having problems with my bike...
2009 with 10,000 miles.

I Recently just cleaned the carbs out completely and checked the diaphragms to make sure they weren't broken anywhere.
I cleaned out the air box to make sure nothing was blocking the way, i checked the fuel filter and no obstructions.

My spark plugs aren't that old, they are very black at the bottom.

I have AreaP exhaust, 2 washers on needles, stock size jet.

When I start up the bike it seems fine and will rev fine the first time I rev it.
After that at about 4k rpm the engine bogs down and wants to die, giving it more gas only makes it give out faster.

Any help?

during the video i am constantly applying more throttle

Link to original page on YouTube.

[rojoracing53]

was with the choke or no choke?

with the things you've done recently there's lots of chance to miss route a vacuum hose on not connect it at all. could be a vacuum leak, water from the tank, air bubble in the fuel system that needs some open throttle to prime the system.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

was with the choke or no choke?

with the things you've done recently there's lots of chance to miss route a vacuum hose on not connect it at all. could be a vacuum leak, water from the tank, air bubble in the fuel system that needs some open throttle to prime the system.

This was without choke

100% certain everything is in place, I been trying things over and over for the past 3 days.

Water in the bowls gave me there symptoms earlier in the month and when i drained the bowls it was fixed.
I drained the gas tank and bowls previously and did not solve it this time.

[jkv45]

Did you remove and clean the main jets? Sounds like as soon as it's off the idle circuit it runs out of fuel to me.

Did you change anything when you cleaned the carbs? Float level, needle height, air cleaner, etc?

[xaple]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Did you remove and clean the main jets? Sounds like as soon as it's off the idle circuit it runs out of fuel to me.

Did you change anything when you cleaned the carbs? Float level, needle height, air cleaner, etc?

I am completely unaware how to change the float level, i may have done it unintentional.

I did not change any of the jetting, and the main as well as the pilot jets were cleaned.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by xaple

...This was without choke

100% certain everything is in place, I been trying things over and over for the past 3 days.

What does it do with the choke on? Did you let it warm up at all before turning the throttle? Have you tried to ride it with the choke on then turn it off after about a mile or so?

[xaple]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

What does it do with the choke on? Did you let it warm up at all before turning the throttle? Have you tried to ride it with the choke on then turn it off after about a mile or so?

I have yet to try and ride with the choke. I did a very very extensive clean of the carbs just now and will wait till morning to see how everything goes.

without the choke I can not even get up to speed to get anywhere. One of the reasons I'm so stressed because i can't even take it anyway like a buddies house with proper tools...

I will report back tomorrow morning.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by xaple

I am completely unaware how to change the float level, i may have done it unintentional.

I did not change any of the jetting, and the main as well as the pilot jets were cleaned.

As far as cleaning the jets, sometimes you can see light through them, but they aren't completely open. Just spraying cleaner through them won't do it. I take one strand of copper wire from stranded home electrical wire (12ga, 14ga, etc) and run it through the jet while spraying cleaner and spinning the jet around the wire. The jet holder also has very small holes cross-drilled through it that can plug-up. The small brass wire fits through those also.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

What does it do with the choke on? Did you let it warm up at all before turning the throttle? Have you tried to ride it with the choke on then turn it off after about a mile or so?

Let it warm up for about 20 minutes and hit the choke. The choke allowed the engine to idle at about 4-5k rpm but as soon as i gave it some gas via the throttle, the same result as no choke. I'm unable to ride it anywhere.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by jkv45

As far as cleaning the jets, sometimes you can see light through them, but they aren't completely open. Just spraying cleaner through them won't do it. I take one strand of copper wire from stranded home electrical wire (12ga, 14ga, etc) and run it through the jet while spraying cleaner and spinning the jet around the wire. The jet holder also has very small holes cross-drilled through it that can plug-up. The small brass wire fits through those also.

I put in brand new jets, same result.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[jkv45]

I'm thinking something involving the diaphragms.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I'm thinking something involving the diaphragms.

I extensively checked the diaphragms to make sure there is no slit or any type of crack in them. When in place and manually moved they appear to have suction to them.

I am getting new spark plugs to get rid of a cheap fix option.

The only thing i can think of is maybe there is a leak or break in the air hoses somewhere not allowing enough of a vacuum to pull up the needles.

[xaple]

Looking at the service manual this is the possible fixes to problems.
Keep in mind the bike was working properly and suddenly stopped after sitting a few days.


Running at Low Speed:

Spark weak:

Battery voltage low - Newish battery, unlikely.
Stick coil trouble
Stick coil shorted or not in good contact -possible, uncertain what this is.
Spark plug dirty, broken, or maladjusted - Will be switched shortly
Spark plug incorrect - " "
ECU trouble - unsure what this is
Crankshaft sensor trouble - unsure

Fuel/air mixture incorrect:

Bypass screw maladjusted- unsurw
Air passage clogged - Airbox and filter checked extensively
Air bleed pipe bleed holes clogged - unsure
Pilot passage clogged - Carbs cleaned
Air cleaner clogged, poorly sealed, or missing - Checked
Fuel tank air vent obstructed- unlikely
Fuel pump trouble- unlikely
Throttle body assy holder loose - checked
Air cleaner duct loose - unsure

Compression low:

Spark plug loose- checked
Cylinder head not sufficiently tightened
down- unsure
No valve clearance unsure
Cylinder, piston worn - unsure

Other:

ECU trouble
Throttle body assy not synchronizing
Engine oil viscosity too high
Drive train trouble
Brake dragging
Clutch slipping
Engine overheating
Air suction valve trouble
Air switching valve trouble - unlikely


Poor Running or No Power at High
Speed:

Firing incorrect:

Spark plug dirty, broken, or maladjusted
Spark plug incorrect- replacing


Fuel/air mixture incorrect:

Air cleaner clogged, poorly sealed, or missing
Air cleaner duct loose - checked
Water or foreign matter in fuel - Water caused similar problems in past but couldnt be the case now after extensive draining. Could water int he engine cause these problems?
Throttle body assy holder loose - checked
Fuel to injector insufficient - checked
Fuel tank air vent obstructed - checked
Fuel line clogged - checked
Fuel pump trouble - unlikely

Compression low:

Spark plug loose- checked
Cylinder head not sufficiently tightened
down
No valve clearance
Cylinder, piston worn
Piston ring bad (worn, weak, broken, or
sticking)
Piston ring/groove clearance excessive
Cylinder head gasket damaged
Cylinder head warped
Valve spring broken or weak
Valve not seating properly (valve bent,
worn, or carbon accumulation on the
seating surface) - unsure

Knocking:

Carbon built up in combustion chamber
Fuel poor quality or incorrect
Spark plug incorrect
ECU trouble - No knocking

Miscellaneous:

Throttle valve won’t fully open
Brake dragging
Clutch slipping
Engine overheating
Engine oil level too high
Engine oil viscosity too high
Drive train trouble
Camshaft cam worn
Air suction valve trouble
Air switching valve trouble
Catalytic converter melt down due to muffler
overheating (KLEEN) - Unlikely/checked

[xaple]

Ok so if anyone is still looking at this. I did a little test where i took off the caps of the carbs and plugged up the diaphragms with my fingers and started the bike. When i gave it some gas and help down the diaphragms i had the same result I'm having with the bike all put together. Which leads me to believe the diaphragms are not opening. does anyone know more of how the carburetors work that could direct me to why the diaphragms are not opening?

[jkv45]

Here's a link to some CV info and theory - http://www.motorcycleproject.com/mot...bs_work_v3.swf

I'm pretty sure that's where your problems are.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Here's a link to some CV info and theory - http://www.motorcycleproject.com/mot...bs_work_v3.swf

I'm pretty sure that's where your problems are.

Great read, helped me understand a little more.
A little confused as to why my slides are not rising? Is it because there is a clog somewhere not letting air into the space under the diaphragm? Or is there a problem with creating a low pressure above the diaphragm.

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by xaple

Ok so if anyone is still looking at this. I did a little test where i took off the caps of the carbs and plugged up the diaphragms with my fingers and started the bike. When i gave it some gas and help down the diaphragms i had the same result I'm having with the bike all put together. Which leads me to believe the diaphragms are not opening. does anyone know more of how the carburetors work that could direct me to why the diaphragms are not opening?

If they are installed the wrong way around they will stick. Also look at the washers under the needles. Make sure the washers go all the way into the plastic thingy that holds the needle. I have had an issue similar to yours and it turned out that the washers under the needle were just sticking where they were going into the plastic needle holder thingy which made the needles stay way up in the travel causing it not to rev past 4000rpm.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by xaple

Great read, helped me understand a little more.
A little confused as to why my slides are not rising? Is it because there is a clog somewhere not letting air into the space under the diaphragm? Or is there a problem with creating a low pressure above the diaphragm.

Not sure about that. I'd blow out the passages and look at everything closely. Is it possible the diaphragms or any related parts may have been switched side-to-side when you removed them? That's if they are not exactly the same - don't know - just tossing out ideas...

[xaple]

Originally Posted by Rassie

If they are installed the wrong way around they will stick. Also look at the washers under the needles. Make sure the washers go all the way into the plastic thingy that holds the needle. I have had an issue similar to yours and it turned out that the washers under the needle were just sticking where they were going into the plastic needle holder thingy which made the needles stay way up in the travel causing it not to rev past 4000rpm.

I don't understand what you mean. The washers above the e-clip were sticking to the plastic thing in the spring? How would that affect the needle if the spring is forcing the plastic piece on to the needle anyways.

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by xaple

I don't understand what you mean. The washers above the e-clip were sticking to the plastic thing in the spring? How would that affect the needle if the spring is forcing the plastic piece on to the needle anyways.

The washers go into the recessed area underneath the top of the needle, if the washers are too big and do not seat all the way down in there it will stop the needle from being seated as well. It has too go in all the way.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by Rassie

The washers go into the recessed area underneath the top of the needle, if the washers are too big and do not seat all the way down in there it will stop the needle from being seated as well. It has too go in all the way.

The jet kit instructions say the washers go above the e-clip. But i put the stock needles back and same problems.

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by xaple

The jet kit instructions say the washers go above the e-clip. But i put the stock needles back and same problems.

OK that is good news, at least you have eliminated that possibility. Did you check if the slides are the right way around?

Also once the slides are installed you can move them up with your finger, if they make sucking sounds then that is probably not the issue.

Also if you could post pictures of what you are doing we (everyone here) may be able to provide more input.

[csmith12]

Open gas tank lid and try again
Bypass petcock and try again
Check snorkle pathways

[xaple]

Originally Posted by Rassie

OK that is good news, at least you have eliminated that possibility. Did you check if the slides are the right way around?

Also once the slides are installed you can move them up with your finger, if they make sucking sounds then that is probably not the issue.

Also if you could post pictures of what you are doing we (everyone here) may be able to provide more input.

I removed the boots on the air box to essentially bypass the air box and allow me to view the slides in action. They are int he right way I am sure of that. When giving gas to the bike the slides appear to be working perfectly.

It almost seems like the problem happens when the gas tank is on the bike? This wouldn't make sense because the petcock seems to work fine manually when i operate it and would flooded float bowls even cause this problem?

[xaple]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Open gas tank lid and try again
Bypass petcock and try again
Check snorkle pathways

I have tried with the gas tank not even on. Seems to help a little.
Snorkel is clear and i am running right now without the air box just to test out this problem. There were no obstructions inside the air box.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by Rassie

Also if you could post pictures of what you are doing we (everyone here) may be able to provide more input.

this is a video i got of the slides, they are working here and working when i view them without the air box on. They are probably shaking and acting funny because the phone is blocking majority of the hole, but they are working.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Rassie]

Have you checked the exhaust for any blockage?

[xaple]

Originally Posted by Rassie

Have you checked the exhaust for any blockage?

Yes i took off the exhaust pipes and tapped them and sounded hollow throughout, I'm about to put back on the stock pipes making everything stock again in case i have to take it into the shop.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[xaple]

Got a little bit of an update on how things are going.

First of all the bike is back to complete stock (wow the exhaust sounds so different).

It seems like if the bike sits for upwards of 20 of so minutes and is turned on it starts right up and i can ride it fine for about 30 seconds. After that 30 seconds it becomes very hard to get off the idle circuit and i have to give it a ton of has to cause it to rev very high to keep the bike moving.

After about 30 more seconds it is impossible to move past 3k RPM and the bike will stall if i try to give it any gas, and the next time i turn it on it will be a rough idle or will not start at all until i wait again.

[jkv45]

Check the vacuum hose to the petcock, the gas cap, and the float bowl vent for proper venting.

What it's doing sounds like it's being starved of fuel after a certain point, and a vacuum may be building-up in the float bowls as the fuel is being used.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Check the vacuum hose to the petcock, the gas cap, and the float bowl vent for proper venting.

What it's doing sounds like it's being starved of fuel after a certain point, and a vacuum may be building-up in the float bowls as the fuel is being used.

Vacuum hose to the petcock constantly sucks and blows, which is what it should be doing correct?

Where is the float bowl vent?

[Rassie]

Honestly it sounds like fuel supply to me. If it sits then the float bowls get full due to some gas coming through. Then after 30 seconds the supply cannot keep up. Other than that I am stumped for sure.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by xaple

Vacuum hose to the petcock constantly sucks and blows, which is what it should be doing correct?

Where is the float bowl vent?

The petcock should have constant vacuum when the engine is running.

Look at post #6 in this thread - http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141721.

Check all hoses running to and from the carb.

[xaple]

Originally Posted by jkv45

The petcock should have constant vacuum when the engine is running.

Look at post #6 in this thread - http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=141721.

Check all hoses running to and from the carb.

My fuel overflow hose is clear, i can suck gas out of it.
I have taken the carbs on and off about 8 times this week each time cleaning and double checking everything. The only thing I am not sure about is the float height. But would that cause something as drastic as this? How do I adjust it.

[xaple]

here another video of the way the engine is acting.

Im constantly slowly adding more throttle when the engine starts to rev

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Bblock]

Curious if it is fixed? Check the little fuel filter ?

[jkv45]

I would have liked the video to go on a bit longer so we could hear exactly what it sounds like when it quits.

From what i heard at the end it sounded like it was running out of fuel to me.

I think there's something not right in the carbs, and at this point I would take them to someone that knows how to completely disassemble, clean, and adjust them.

[quarterliter]

I think you have a vacuum leak or some sort or a hose is routed incorrectly. I know you said its right and your 100% certain.....I don't think I've ever been 100% certain of anything in my life. I think I hear the sound of a vacuum leak. I forgot to connect a hose when my bike was apart last time and it acted similar