Locked the front wheel...

[Aurodox]

Just encountered my first front wheel lock up. I've never been one to justify ABS on a bike. It's nice to know that I didn't have to eat my words! I was riding around town and a light turned yellow so I decided to gun it to make the light. Well there was a car in front of me who I thought was going to go through the yellow as well. Well they decided they'd stop for the light so I decided to stop as well though I was already approaching the intersection pretty fast. I quickly and smoothly applied the brakes and ended up locking a wheel. The engine didnt die so I'm guessing it was the front. I always imagined a front wheel lock up to be a bit more of a hairy situation, but this was pretty easy to control. Just let off the brakes a little, let the tire regain traction, and then started applying more brake pressure. It's an awesome feeling when you know you don't need technology to help you control a vehicle. I love just being me and the vehicle and needing the skill to properly control it in emergency situations!

Thanks for reading and ride safe!

[xaple]

Back wheel lock up stops the engine?
Also good job

[Panda]

Nice save! I assume you didn't have the clutch in? I have an abs and non-abs bike. I love knowing the abs is there if I need it.

[Aurodox]

I don't think I had the clutch in cause I remember checking to make sure my engine was still on. Don't think I'd think to do that with the clutch disengaged. It all happened within a second though so I don't really remember.

Yes, if you have the clutch engaged or out and the rear wheel locks, the engine will die.

[rojoracing53]

engine will die but you probably wont notice since your focused on other things and as soon as the brake is released just a little the engine will creep back to life without you knowing it. If there was any question about whether it was the front or rear that locked up then it was the rear. When you lock the front the bike will instantly start to fall to the side very quickly and its a rather dramatic sensation you won't soon forget.

I'm not saying you did lock the front tire, I'm saying from your description its likely you may not have.

It's not a bad idea to test locking up the front tire while strait up and down just so you don't freak out when it happens unexpectedly, but I warn you that doing so could cause you to crash very easily so do so at your own risk.

[Jiggles]

Don't use the rear brake in a panic stop

[Aurodox]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

engine will die but you probably wont notice since your focused on other things and as soon as the brake is released just a little the engine will creep back to life without you knowing it. If there was any question about whether it was the front or rear that locked up then it was the rear. When you lock the front the bike will instantly start to fall to the side very quickly and its a rather dramatic sensation you won't soon forget.

I'm not saying you did lock the front tire, I'm saying from your description its likely you may not have.

It's not a bad idea to test locking up the front tire while strait up and down just so you don't freak out when it happens unexpectedly, but I warn you that doing so could cause you to crash very easily so do so at your own risk.

Yeah, but every time I've locked up the rear I did not hear the tire squeeling like I heard this time. The rear just skids, but man this time the front was squeeling and I'm pretty sure I locked it up. Idk about the instantly falling over part cause I was still in control the whole time which this was a split second mind you. I've been on dirt bikes for 15 years so a lot of this stuff is second nature, but I've never locked the front wheel before today!

[Jono]

You got skills or just good luck!


All I know is I've been down twice when the front wheel locked up. I once squeezed the front brake on wet leaves and instantly went down. Couldn't even process what happened til I was on the ground. Second time was kinda similar to your situation. I was speeding up to get through a yellow light when a riding friend stopped in the middle of the intersection and cut me off. I squeezed the brakes smoothly but I was still going too fast, tried to squeeze harder. Heard my front tire screech then bam I was on the ground in a split second.

[SteveL]

Here In Switzerland they teach you to lock the front in an emergency stop, it heats the rubber fast improving grip.

Steve

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by SteveL

Here In Switzerland they teach you to lock the front in an emergency stop, it heats the rubber fast improving grip.

Steve

And meth is good for your teeth

[drac]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Don't use the rear brake in a panic stop

Here we go again....................

My advice........ Dont take advice from a guy who has totaled two bikes in less than a year due to improper braking technique.

Once you have been riding for 4-5 years and have 50-60 thousand miles under your belt then you should decide if you want to use the rear brake during panic stops............ Until then use the rear brake.

As a new rider I implore you to use both brakes. Every study posted, every test done has proven your stopping distance will be shorter using both brakes.

You did the right thing........ Well done on NOT rear ending the car in front of you.

[NathanUc]

Originally Posted by drac

Here we go again....................

My advice........ Dont take advice from a guy who has totaled two bikes in less than a year due to improper braking technique.

Once you have been riding for 4-5 years and have 50-60 thousand miles under your belt then you should decide if you want to use the rear brake during panic stops............ Until then use the rear brake.

As a new rider I implore you to use both brakes. Every study posted, every test done has proven your stopping distance will be shorter using both brakes.

You did the right thing........ Well done on NOT rear ending the car in front of you.

+1....

Even of if you're locking up your rear brake, it's at least helping you slow down a bit and causing little danger. If you're braking so hard that you're lifting the rear anyways, holding the brake isn't going to hurt you.

[dfox]

^ +2

Rear break lockups typically result in "fish tailing" while front wheel lockups feel like the front wheel fell out from underneath you.

My first front lockup I caught as well. I didn't know what happened until after I let off the brake, it was only instinct that caught me, something I surely learned from riding bicycles so much as a child.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Aurodox

.........I quickly and smoothly applied the brakes and ended up locking a wheel....

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=263&Set=

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=267&Set=

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=264&Set=

"We all know that 'grabbing a handful' of front brake lever is dangerous. That is, squeezing the front brake lever too quickly leads to locking up the front brake and the result is a bike that ends up on its side - almost faster than you can blink.

But how fast is too fast?

If it takes you only 0.5 seconds to reach maximum squeeze pressure, you will actually achieve a rate of 1.04g's. And if you can reach maximum squeeze in as little as 0.3 seconds, the actual rate achieved will be 0.9g's.

0.3 seconds to reach maximum pressure is DANGEROUS! It takes longer than that to compress most shocks by about 50% of their travel, so you are looking at high probability of locking the brake if you squeeze that fast."

[Jesse8931]

Does any one not remember the msf panic stop ?
front brake
rear brake
clutch
down shift

Having ridden for years i have had plenty of close calls but using both brakes while downshifting has been the best way to panic stop.

[Jiggles]

You know I crashed the second time because I locked up the rear right?

[drac]

No......... You crashed the second time because you dont know how to use your brakes.

[Jiggles]

Your right, that time I ****ed up, cuz I used the rear brake in a panic stop and surprise, it locked

[drac]

Yea because you certainly didnt f#@^ up the first time.............. LOL

[Aurodox]

Originally Posted by Jono

You got skills or just good luck!


All I know is I've been down twice when the front wheel locked up. I once squeezed the front brake on wet leaves and instantly went down. Couldn't even process what happened til I was on the ground. Second time was kinda similar to your situation. I was speeding up to get through a yellow light when a riding friend stopped in the middle of the intersection and cut me off. I squeezed the brakes smoothly but I was still going too fast, tried to squeeze harder. Heard my front tire screech then bam I was on the ground in a split second.

That sucks...I've definitely been down because of the front brake. It's just that I went down on the dirt and not on the street. I've been down countless of times dirt biking for 15 years. Never been down on the street and not looking forward to ever going down on the street. Hopefully it isn't too bad!

Originally Posted by drac

Here we go again....................

My advice........ Dont take advice from a guy who has totaled two bikes in less than a year due to improper braking technique.

Once you have been riding for 4-5 years and have 50-60 thousand miles under your belt then you should decide if you want to use the rear brake during panic stops............ Until then use the rear brake.

As a new rider I implore you to use both brakes. Every study posted, every test done has proven your stopping distance will be shorter using both brakes.

You did the right thing........ Well done on NOT rear ending the car in front of you.

I wouldn't necessarily call myself a new rider. I've been on 2 wheels for 15 years. I've always excelled at operating machines. I always try to be the best operator I can possibly be. I definitely use both brakes on every stop. I don't know why you wouldn't use both brakes when you have 2 to use. I wouldn't be able to tell you how many miles I've ridden, but I do know I have 1500-2000 street miles, not counting the 15 years on dirt.

Originally Posted by Motofool

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=263&Set=

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=267&Set=

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=264&Set=

"We all know that 'grabbing a handful' of front brake lever is dangerous. That is, squeezing the front brake lever too quickly leads to locking up the front brake and the result is a bike that ends up on its side - almost faster than you can blink.

But how fast is too fast?

If it takes you only 0.5 seconds to reach maximum squeeze pressure, you will actually achieve a rate of 1.04g's. And if you can reach maximum squeeze in as little as 0.3 seconds, the actual rate achieved will be 0.9g's.

0.3 seconds to reach maximum pressure is DANGEROUS! It takes longer than that to compress most shocks by about 50% of their travel, so you are looking at high probability of locking the brake if you squeeze that fast."

The front suspension definitely had time to compress. I don't grab at the front brake, I quickly and smoothly apply the front brake. I'm very aware of the suspension and always use all feedback from the bike when riding it. I can see how grabbing the front brake and locking the front wheel without the suspension compressing would lead to a crash. I don't know about the whole .3 and .5 seconds thing, but I just know how to feel what the suspension and the bike is doing, and to operate it from what the bike is telling me.

[Jiggles]

Lol w/e drac, I can't argue with a guy who doesn't use logic

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by Jesse8931

Does any one not remember the msf panic stop ?
front brake
rear brake
clutch
down shift

Having ridden for years i have had plenty of close calls but using both brakes while downshifting has been the best way to panic stop.

That's pretty much exactly what they teach here, only they say don't worry too much about the clutch and down shifting as it's not vital in a panic situation a stall is going to be the least of your worries.

I'm a big fan of the rear brake, the more you use it in everyday riding the less you will fear it or lock the rear from doing it too hard as you know the bikes limits.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by drac

Here we go again....................

My advice........ Dont take advice from a guy who has totaled two bikes in less than a year due to improper braking technique.

Once you have been riding for 4-5 years and have 50-60 thousand miles under your belt then you should decide if you want to use the rear brake during panic stops............ Until then use the rear brake.

As a new rider I implore you to use both brakes. Every study posted, every test done has proven your stopping distance will be shorter using both brakes.

You can repeat falsehoods as often as you want, it doesn't make them true. Repeatedly, motorcycle testers get shorter distances on emergency stops with short wheelbase sportbikes using only the front. When you're dropping a ton of speed in a straight line with the front at the edge of lockup, the rear isn't going to save inches, let alone feet.

Originally Posted by NathanUc

+1....

Even of if you're locking up your rear brake, it's at least helping you slow down a bit and causing little danger.

Sorry, but you're incorrectly assessing the risk. What more typically happens is that a newer rider locks up the rear, starts to feel the bike getting out of shape, and lets off pressure on the front brake; greatly extending the stopping distance to keep the bike from tipping over.

Originally Posted by dfox

Rear break lockups typically result in "fish tailing" while front wheel lockups feel like the front wheel fell out from underneath you.

My first front lockup I caught as well. I didn't know what happened until after I let off the brake, it was only instinct that caught me, something I surely learned from riding bicycles so much as a child.

Yes - generally rear lockups provide a few more milliseconds of time to recover if they are sensed soon enough, and the rider can make the decision to ride it out or attempt to release while keeping the bike pointed appropriately. Front lockups are recoverable as well, but there's much less time to get it right.

[drac]

"Repeatedly, motorcycle testers get shorter distances on emergency stops using only the front."

Um.... what............... If I am not mistaken it was you who posted the test where experienced riders stopped 2-3 feet shorter using the rear. If I remember corrctly it was something like 143 feet with front only and 140 using both. Those numbers arent exact but close if my memory serves.

Yes experienced riders dont gain that much of an advantage using the rear but they do gain a little.

The majority of people on this forum are beginners who gained something like 12 feet by using both as opposed to just the front.

[Alex]

If you quit having this argument in unrelated threads and re-read the two or three main threads on this topic linked from the Riding Skill sticky, you'd keep people from having to repeat themselves for you.

[Jiggles]

I'm gna go test this.

Would it be cheating to use my ABS bike that has a linked front brake?

[drac]

LOL....... You may want to re-read the thread. Exactly how is what I posted unrelated? It is thread about locking up a brake. The OP wasnt sure which one. Jiggles posts about not using the rear brake(which he does repeatedly) and I responded.

If you would be so kind... I would like to see a study where riders stop shorter using only the front brake. I have never seen one.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Aurodox

........
The front suspension definitely had time to compress. I don't grab at the front brake, I quickly and smoothly apply the front brake. I'm very aware of the suspension and always use all feedback from the bike when riding it. ........

Then, ruling out the too-quick factor, this is what I believe that happened in your case:

Your compressed, flattened and properly loaded rolling front contact patch encountered a road's area of extremely low friction: oil, Diesel, sand, plastic or painted road marks (clean wet pavement would have hold it), the brake forces on the disc won, the wheel stopped rotation and skidded.

If that is true, quick release and re-application may have not worked as you may have been rolling over that slippery area still.

You did not fall because the wheel was perfectly vertical at that moment and because you did not input any steering during that little time of the skid.

You could stop because the slippery area was left behind when you re-apply the front brake.

Of course, I could be wrong; I just try to say that your reaction was correct and timely; and that however, successful recoveries like this one also require the right circumstances to be present.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by drac

If you would be so kind... I would like to see a study where riders stop shorter using only the front brake. I have never seen one.

If you had read that thread:

Data provided by Don Canet

Data from the Superbike school

Look, you can have whatever opinion you want, and you can even share it. But if people disagree with it, try not to be surprised when it is challenged. Responding with condescending sarcasm isn't appreciated here.

[Aurodox]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Of course, I could be wrong; I just try to say that your reaction was correct and timely; and that however, successful recoveries like this one also require the right circumstances to be present.

Yeah I feel that my reaction was correct and timely. Must've lucked out as well. I definitely try to steer clear from using the front brake while turning. I use it sometimes in slow maneuvers, just as I do a bicycles front brake, but I never ask it to do to much. You always seem to know the inside and outs to all these motorcycle situations. Provides for a good read!

[drac]

Firstly there is only one person here I respond to with sarcasm.... Jiggles

Secondly he threads you posted mean nothing. Is one persons experience. Its anecdotal.

Every scientifically done study that I have ever seen/read shows that using both brakes is the most effective way to stop..... Even the studies you yourself have posted.

[drac]

off topc.............. GTG.... MX opener on fuelTV.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by drac

LOL....... You may want to re-read the thread. Exactly how is what I posted unrelated? It is thread about locking up a brake. The OP wasnt sure which one. Jiggles posts about not using the rear brake(which he does repeatedly) and I responded.

If you would be so kind... I would like to see a study where riders stop shorter using only the front brake. I have never seen one.

I wouldn't call it a study but you could pull up the old AMA racing footage of me out braking fellow Professional racers using only my front brake. I know it's common practice for racers to master both front and rear brakes but I never liked using my feet so I never touched the rear. It wasn't uncommon to here "Perez is a monster on the brakes" in the general paddock because that's when I did most of my passing due to a lack of HP. You'll find most racers use both brakes but it doesn't mean it's the right or only way to do things.

Choose what comfortable to you because you being confident with your actions is what really going to save you from an incident.

When I was modding my ninja's front brake setup I would test the results vs @CycleCam303 's bike to so if the mods were an improvement. I locked the front wheel multiple times over those few weeks and I tell you every time it happened it was startling even if I know it was coming.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by drac

Jiggles posts about not using the rear brake(which he does repeatedly) and I responded.

Thats because people learn 70/30 from the MSF but that is not an appropriate ratio on a sportbike. You want a ratio around 90/10-100/0 but less than 10% of force coming from the rear brake is a difficult thing to gauge right? Hell even engine braking is enough to account for that. Its why there are members on here who put ****** brake pads on their rear brake, so that in the event they use it, they don't use too much. I prefer to opt out altogether. The minimal amount of braking distance that the rear brake might contribute is not worth the risk posed of it locking up.

Anyway, I think I'll go do some tests of stopping distances with and without it and see what I can come up with. I'll take note of the video that you did and be sure that mine is unbiased.

[KawiKid860]

Originally Posted by drac

Every scientifically done study that I have ever seen/read shows that using both brakes is the most effective way to stop..... Even the studies you yourself have posted.

Sources?

I always use both brakes, even in emergency stopping. I have also seen tests that showed bikes stopping slower with both brakes, but I have no sources to prove this and it may be possible that there have been other tests showing the front brake is more effective. I'd say there is a good chance that it is also bike dependent. There's a difference in braking between a small budget bike with a wimpy single disc up front vs a supersport that has enough stopping power to lift the rear wheel thus rendering the rear brake obsolete.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by drac

Secondly the threads you posted mean nothing. Is one persons experience. Its anecdotal.

If you ask for info and it is provided, at least take a moment to process it. The premier bike tester in the US who tests (and publishes results for) every significant sportbike over the past 15 years of his career notes that he often gets his best stopping distances using front brake only, and you dismiss it as one person's anecdotal experience.

One of the top riding schools in the country tests riders before and after advanced brake training, and has data to show the riders have shorter stopping distances using front only, and you say it means nothing.

If you dismiss both of these as non-scientific, and the only results you'll accept are above some scientific bar, you're in luck as you well know, with extremely few published studies available. The ones with the most data are decades old, and of marginal relevance to today's bikes. And even those showed the most modest of effect of adding rear brake to an effectively managed front brake.

[drac]

Decades old?????????????

2006.......

[Motofool]

Why are you guys discussing rear brake if OP locked up only the front brake?

[csmith12]

Drew

[KawiKid860]

Because it's an internet forum and everyone has to be right, especially when the thread gets derailed.