Track Riding in the rain:back to basics

[Ducati999]

I recently went to a Track day at the Thompson Track sponsered bt Tony's Track Days. Unfortunately it rained (hard) all day this Sunday. There were a few really good lessons I learned while working to keep my bike upright and still keeping up to pace. Now I still ride in the slowest (red) group so I may be a little off on my observations (feel free to correct anything I may not get totally correct).

#1 The most important thing I learned is to get farther off the bike. The lower your body is off of the bike (correct body position) the less you have to lean the bike over to make the same turn. We (Mr. Fist) were riding on street tires which are great on dry pavement but really slide prone in the wet. Turn #4 at Thompson is a hairpin usually requiring lots of lean angle, In the wet when i would get far over on the shoulder of the tire I could really feel the bike squirm! This was while still off the throttle just holding steady. There was no way I could add any power since the tire was near max traction. When going thru the same turn leaning way off the bike I kept the tire closer to the center and was able to slowly feed more power and accelerate sooner.

#2 Due to the slippery conditions over all speed was down. My max speed down the front straight was (self) limited to 75-90 mph. The slower speed allowed me to focus more on hitting my braking marker more consistently and to be on the correct line so i could hit my turn in point every time. Slowing down a little bit also helped me be sure of my entry speed. This was critical to be able to run a proper line thru the turns. With the limited traction allowed by my tires there was not a lot of room for mistakes. Braking has to be progressive and smooth and trail braking was kept to a minimum. The best line was one which would allow you to get the bike stood up quickly so you could begin to accelerate as soon as possible.

#3 The most important thing I learned Sunday was that you really have to "listen" to what your bike is telling you. The feedback from the tires and chassis must be processed and responded to quickly! Once the tires start to slide in the rain there is only a small window to save the bike. While standing the bike back up exiting a turn I would slowly begin to add throttle, if I felt the rear get numb (no feeling) and the suspension started to unload i knew to reduce the throttle--not cut the throttle completely just back off a little bit till it hooked back up--also bringing the bike more vertical if possible at this point.

#4 The final point I have is the clutch. Wet conditions require a much softer clutch release. Down shifting and acceleration in really wet conditions requires the clutch be slipped out not dropped. I was riding my Ducati so this may be different for others especially if you have a slipper clutch but my bike has tons of engine braking. Slowing for turn 1 I would have to be really careful when releasing the clutch to prevent the rear from locking/losing traction. There were a few times that the rear "got happy" while braking for a turn and down shifting, this was easily controlled by letting out the clutch a little bit slower and allowing the revs to match speed before complete engagement. I also had occasional problems while up shifting if I just grabbed a gear and got back on the throttle. By slowing my clutch release slightly (not slipping) I was better able to control the traction of the rear wheel.

I learned a whole lot riding in the rain and believe everyone should try it when they are comfortable enough to give it a try. I am still really new to riding on the track so some of what I said may be a little off but this is how I saw things from my perspective. Feel free to correctly describe anything I may have said wrong! I am always looking to improve my riding and understanding of what is going on while I am riding.

[csmith12]

Seeing how turn 4 seems to be a crash zone in the dry, I bet it was interesting in the wet.

Here is another wet riding tip; When in the wet, you can use the gears that you want, but the trick substitute rpms for throttle control or handicap your throttle by "shortshifting". Either way works to keep you out of the peak power of the bike you're riding, it's just a rider preference really. There is a possible downside to being too high in the revs and in the braking zone while on a wet track. I bet you can guess what it is, am I right?

[Qomomoko]

nice info.. !!!

I heard to rain forces you to have tons of control and be smooth all the time..

been a long time since I been on the track in the rain... not planning on it any time soon though.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Seeing how turn 4 seems to be a crash zone in the dry, I bet it was interesting in the wet.

Here is another wet riding tip; When in the wet, you can use the gears that you want, but the trick substitute rpms for throttle control or handicap your throttle by "shortshifting". Either way works to keep you out of the peak power of the bike you're riding, it's just a rider preference really. There is a possible downside to being too high in the revs and in the braking zone while on a wet track. I bet you can guess what it is, am I right?

I only saw one off all day, and it was there.

I'd say the downside is engine braking causing the rear wheel to lose traction.

BTW, the "B" (castration) mode on my bike sure came in handy. When I remembered to engage it, that is....

[Misti]

Some great points here and good reminders about what is important when you are riding in the rain.

One thing that wasn't mentioned much was the use of the throttle. How do you need to adjust your throttle control when riding in the rain?

[adouglas]

Hi Misti... long time no read

Sloow on the throttle. A very light hand.

I rode with Ant that day and I found myself being very tentative. The bike reacted to water more than I thought it would (street tires).

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Hi Misti... long time no read

Sloow on the throttle. A very light hand.

I rode with Ant that day and I found myself being very tentative. The bike reacted to water more than I thought it would (street tires).

Hi! The kids are finally in school, YAY I have some free time :dance cool:


I think a better word than "slow" would be SMOOTH with the throttle When I raced in the rain I learned that you can go a LOT faster than you think in the rain BUT you need to be extra super duper SMOOTH. Riders tend to get away with a lot of mistakes in the dry, choppy throttle, on off with the gas, rolling on late etc etc...but you cannot make those same mistakes in the wet or you will be on the ground in no time.

So, smooth with the throttle! Anything else? What about timing? When should you be getting on the gas?

[EsrTek]

Love misti's post(s)...always leave you with something to think about.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Ducati999

#3 The most important thing I learned Sunday was that you really have to "listen" to what your bike is telling you. The feedback from the tires and chassis must be processed and responded to quickly! Once the tires start to slide in the rain there is only a small window to save the bike. While standing the bike back up exiting a turn I would slowly begin to add throttle, if I felt the rear get numb (no feeling) and the suspension started to unload i knew to reduce the throttle--not cut the throttle completely just back off a little bit till it hooked back up--also bringing the bike more vertical if possible at this point.

#4 The final point I have is the clutch. Wet conditions require a much softer clutch release. Down shifting and acceleration in really wet conditions requires the clutch be slipped out not dropped. I was riding my Ducati so this may be different for others especially if you have a slipper clutch but my bike has tons of engine braking. Slowing for turn 1 I would have to be really careful when releasing the clutch to prevent the rear from locking/losing traction. There were a few times that the rear "got happy" while braking for a turn and down shifting, this was easily controlled by letting out the clutch a little bit slower and allowing the revs to match speed before complete engagement. I also had occasional problems while up shifting if I just grabbed a gear and got back on the throttle. By slowing my clutch release slightly (not slipping) I was better able to control the traction of the rear wheel.

Awesome post! Thanks for the tips! Clutchless upshifting (or a quickshifter) is helpful at all times, especially in the rain, to keep riding smooth.
I've attached a picture to show you just how fast the bike can go down on a wet track...especially if you hit a weeper, which Barber is notorious for having. I was down so fast I was still looking through the turn like, hell yeah, I've got this.

Originally Posted by Misti

So, smooth with the throttle! Anything else? What about timing? When should you be getting on the gas?

Should you get on the gas a bit earlier in the wet? The bike is less forgiving if you should try getting on the gas more rapidly. It seems to me that for the roll-on to be smooth, one would need to get on it a bit earlier than in dry and roll on more smoothly (or in my case, I'd roll on more slowly) than usual.

[Ducati999]

Thanks ALLY99 for your compliment! I have found in the rain all things must happen slower. Since your entry speed is lower than in the dry and you are using less lean angle you can hypothetically get on the gas a little sooner but slower with the throttle twist. Traction is key and that depends on your speed and line. So yes with proper entry speed and line selection you could get on the gas a little sooner but slower since traction is limited and the last thing you want mid corner is for the rear to begin to slide out. Because i was new to track speeds in the wet (and extra slow--for the track) I was able (necessary) to add throttle mid corner while keeping the bike slightly leaned over and turning. My bike is a big torquey twin so I had to be extra cautious with how much and when I added throttle. I am just guessing but in the same situation (same line and entry speed I was using) you would be able to add more throttle quicker with the 250. That is the reason the 250 is so good to learn on-because its just one less thing you need to focus on mid turn. Less power means less likely to light up the rear and cause a crash. Tires make a huge difference in the wet also. I have Pirelli Angel ST tires on my Ducati, and found them to have really good traction even in really wet conditions. Several other riders were complaining of their bikes having a wiggle or temp traction loss at about the same speed as I was riding. This could be due to different suspension settings and weight distribution of the bike or even slightly different line selection or lean angle. There is nothing better in the rain than Rain tires!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Love misti's post(s)...always leave you with something to think about.

Awwww, thank you

Originally Posted by ally99

Should you get on the gas a bit earlier in the wet? The bike is less forgiving if you should try getting on the gas more rapidly. It seems to me that for the roll-on to be smooth, one would need to get on it a bit earlier than in dry and roll on more smoothly (or in my case, I'd roll on more slowly) than usual.

Hi Ally,

The goal of rolling on the gas (at any time) is to stabilize the bike by getting the suspension into the correct range. The mistake that a lot of riders make in the rain is that they don't necessarily understand the above goal and they fear the throttle (because you have to be so smooth in the wet).

The result is that they end up coasting through the corners and rolling on very very late in the turn. What that does however is keep all the weight on the front tire which is only designed to carry a portion of the cornering load. You can often get away with a late throttle roll on in the dry (because there is more available traction on dry pavement) but you risk losing the front easily in the wet if you keep the extra weight on the front tire.

So, to answer your question, yes, an early roll on is helpful in the wet. But how early should you be getting on the gas? The same rule applies regardless of the conditions.

What is (as Keith Code says) throttle control number 1?

[ally99]

Once you crack open the throttle, roll on smoothly and constantly through the rest of the turn...
or something like that.

Weight is distributed correctly, suspension is happy, traction is maximized when slightly on the throttle throughout a turn.

[allanoue]

What I think I am reading is:

In the wet or dry, the time to start rolling on the throttle is the same.

I already knew you should be smooth, wet or dry.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ally99

Once you crack open the throttle, roll on smoothly and constantly through the rest of the turn...
or something like that.

Weight is distributed correctly, suspension is happy, traction is maximized when slightly smoothly rolling on the throttle throughout a turn.

fixed

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Once you crack open the throttle, roll on smoothly and constantly through the rest of the turn...
or something like that.

Weight is distributed correctly, suspension is happy, traction is maximized when slightly on the throttle throughout a turn.

Sounds about right to me

Originally Posted by allanoue

What I think I am reading is:

In the wet or dry, the time to start rolling on the throttle is the same.

I already knew you should be smooth, wet or dry.

Also about right. Is there a magic time or place to begin rolling on the throttle in either wet or dry conditions? How do you know when you should start that smooth roll on?

[b.miller123]

I think a lot of people are doing themselves a disservice by not riding in the rain. Sure, it is uncomfortable, but (just like riding on the dirt) it is easier to break traction, learn what it feels like, and know how to compensate/recover with smaller chances of a highside. It is definitely a great learning environment.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Misti

Is there a magic time or place to begin rolling on the throttle in either wet or dry conditions? How do you know when you should start that smooth roll on?

I believe Keith said "as early as you can." So no magic time or place.

How you know... that's a good question. I'm sure the answer is in the back of my so-called brain somewhere.

I know it's somewhere between tip-in and apex, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on how I know when to do it.

If trail braking, it's easing on throttle as you ease off brake. If not, it's after you finish braking and have tipped in and set your line. But precisely when? Not sure how to answer that.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I believe Keith said "as early as you can." So no magic time or place.

How you know... that's a good question. I'm sure the answer is in the back of my so-called brain somewhere.

I know it's somewhere between tip-in and apex, but I'm having trouble putting my finger on how I know when to do it.

If trail braking, it's easing on throttle as you ease off brake. If not, it's after you finish braking and have tipped in and set your line. But precisely when? Not sure how to answer that.

Keith says as "soon as possible once....." a certain control action has to be complete BEFORE you can begin rolling on the gas. So, as soon as possible once the bike is? Anyone

[csmith12]

Steering is complete.... Sorry, I shouldn't have answered.

[adouglas]

But still, how do you know when "as soon as possible" is?

Steering is complete, bike is established on the line. What's the actual cue for "as soon as possible?"

On the street, I often find myself saying "gee, I could have gotten on it a bit sooner in that last corner." But when I'm actually in the corner, that doesn't occur to me.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Steering is complete.... Sorry, I shouldn't have answered.

I never stop steering while the bike is moving

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I never stop steering while the bike is moving

How much bar pressure is required to steer a bike through a turn after the tip in? The answer is NONE, but it takes 2 main ingredients. The first one I will give you... a well setup machine. What do you think the 2nd is?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

But still, how do you know when "as soon as possible" is?

Steering is complete, bike is established on the line. What's the actual cue for "as soon as possible?"

On the street, I often find myself saying "gee, I could have gotten on it a bit sooner in that last corner." But when I'm actually in the corner, that doesn't occur to me.

This is one of those things where it's easy to overthink it. You already know your end goal is to either be on the brakes or on the throttle, no coasting. Soooo...... once steering is complete and.... ent__ sp___ is set. Then what can you do with the throttle?

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by csmith12

How much bar pressure is required to steer a bike through a turn after the tip in? The answer is NONE, but it takes 2 main ingredients. The first one I will give you... a well setup machine. What do you think the 2nd is?

good BP?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by allanoue

good BP?

Nope, but to give you a clue or two or three... What rider skill will?

Stabilize the bike in most situations
Maximizes traction
Provides predictable traction
Maximizes suspension action
And basically brings all the technologies of the bike together

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Nope, but to give you a clue or two or three... What rider skill will?

Stabilize the bike in most situations
Maximizes traction
Provides predictable traction
Maximizes suspension action
And basically brings all the technologies of the bike together

[csmith12]

It's throttle control Al. A well set up bike + good throttle control will allow the rider to completely relax their hands during cornering, which includes no steering inputs.



Might not want to try that ^^^ at home. lol

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Might not want to try that ^^^ at home. lol

[Ducati999]

All this above is great information, with the exception of, Entry speed for new riders especially in the rain! Let me clarify before the flaming begins. I wrote the above for beginners. I attempted to do all of the above but based on the conditions and my skill level there was some coasting involved. After several laps the coasting was reduced but still not totally eliminated. Also line choice was not always --shall we say optimal-- so the point of rolling on the throttle was different at times. Obviously this is not ideal as you want to be a consistent as possible but add rain and inexperience and there you have it. I would cut throttle and begin to brake then turn in while barely on the brakes till i felt stable enough to add throttle smoothly. I wish we had more time in the dry to practice line selection and I wish my braking in the rain was better but I believe I did well. What is written in the posts above is how you should practice to be perfect at, and when you get it right then your lap times will drop and everyone will get smaller in your mirrors. So just focus on the areas where you are not exactly where you should be and the "proper" time to roll on the throttle will become obvious but until then you will have to take it turn by turn

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

But still, how do you know when "as soon as possible" is?

Steering is complete, bike is established on the line. What's the actual cue for "as soon as possible?"

On the street, I often find myself saying "gee, I could have gotten on it a bit sooner in that last corner." But when I'm actually in the corner, that doesn't occur to me.

It's a simple as what you wrote above, Steering is complete and bike is established on line...THAT is that actual cue for as soon as possible. Once the steering is set and the bike is pointed THEN you get on the gas. There is no real magic formula after that. Get the bike turned and then roll on the gas. It will happen at different points areas of different corners but the goal is always as soon as possible. If you notice that you could have gotten on the gas a little sooner in the last corner then perhaps look at establishing a "roll on" reference point, a specific place in the corner where you begin to rollin the gas. Anyone ever done this?

Originally Posted by allanoue

I never stop steering while the bike is moving

As CSmith12 said, once you have the bike turned and on the line you want you don't need to hold anymore pressure on the bars-provided you have good throttle control. Basically you press on the bar to initiate the turn and once the bike is at the lean angle you want you can stop pressing. The bike will maintain that same line (provided you are rolling on the gas) until you STEER the bike back up.

Originally Posted by Ducati999

All this above is great information, with the exception of, Entry speed for new riders especially in the rain! Let me clarify before the flaming begins. I wrote the above for beginners. I attempted to do all of the above but based on the conditions and my skill level there was some coasting involved. After several laps the coasting was reduced but still not totally eliminated. Also line choice was not always --shall we say optimal-- so the point of rolling on the throttle was different at times. Obviously this is not ideal as you want to be a consistent as possible but add rain and inexperience and there you have it. I would cut throttle and begin to brake then turn in while barely on the brakes till i felt stable enough to add throttle smoothly. I wish we had more time in the dry to practice line selection and I wish my braking in the rain was better but I believe I did well. What is written in the posts above is how you should practice to be perfect at, and when you get it right then your lap times will drop and everyone will get smaller in your mirrors. So just focus on the areas where you are not exactly where you should be and the "proper" time to roll on the throttle will become obvious but until then you will have to take it turn by turn

From what you describe above I wouldn't be too concerned with "coasting" as long as it is not occurring in the middle of the corner. Coasting up to a turn in order to set the entry speed correctly is absolutely fine for most riders, unless you are racing, or intentionally trying to improve riding speed or times then coasting BEFORE the corner doesn't really matter. The problem with coasting (specifically coasting in the rain) is that when you cruise through a corner OFF the gas then you are pushing the front tire to carry more cornering load than it is designed to handle and that can have detrimental results when riding in slippery or wet situations. Again, once the bike is turned you want to get back on the gas ASAP (especially in wet conditions) so that the weight is transferred off that front tire. Does that make sense?

[Ducati999]

Originally Posted by Misti

It's a simple as what you wrote above, Steering is complete and bike is established on line...THAT is that actual cue for as soon as possible. Once the steering is set and the bike is pointed THEN you get on the gas. There is no real magic formula after that. Get the bike turned and then roll on the gas. It will happen at different points areas of different corners but the goal is always as soon as possible. If you notice that you could have gotten on the gas a little sooner in the last corner then perhaps look at establishing a "roll on" reference point, a specific place in the corner where you begin to rollin the gas. Anyone ever done this?

As CSmith12 said, once you have the bike turned and on the line you want you don't need to hold anymore pressure on the bars-provided you have good throttle control. Basically you press on the bar to initiate the turn and once the bike is at the lean angle you want you can stop pressing. The bike will maintain that same line (provided you are rolling on the gas) until you STEER the bike back up.




From what you describe above I wouldn't be too concerned with "coasting" as long as it is not occurring in the middle of the corner. Coasting up to a turn in order to set the entry speed correctly is absolutely fine for most riders, unless you are racing, or intentionally trying to improve riding speed or times then coasting BEFORE the corner doesn't really matter. The problem with coasting (specifically coasting in the rain) is that when you cruise through a corner OFF the gas then you are pushing the front tire to carry more cornering load than it is designed to handle and that can have detrimental results when riding in slippery or wet situations. Again, once the bike is turned you want to get back on the gas ASAP (especially in wet conditions) so that the weight is transferred off that front tire. Does that make sense?

Thanks Misti- I understand what you are saying, and the more I ride and get more confident on the brakes, the less time i spend coasting. Due to my lack of experience in the rain I was unwilling to enter the turn with much of a load on the front tire. I was not willing to risk going down so I kept the load at turn entry where I knew it would grip (if that makes sense). With dry conditions I brake herder and continue braking until turn in then release and add throttle, but in the wet I brake and slow (too much) to where I am certain the front will not slip then turn (coasting with brake pads just touching the rotor) until I am certain I can add throttle and not push the front. I am probably over cautious since there is still lots of traction I am not using but --slow in fast out-- and I will improve (slowly) with practice! Thanks for the advice and I will keep practicing.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

Does that make sense?

Misti, you always make sense.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Misti, you always make sense.