September 25th, 2017, 03:12 AM | #1 |
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[visordown.com] - Motorcycle travels 310 miles on a litre of water
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September 25th, 2017, 06:26 AM | #2 |
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How can this work?
My understanding of chemistry and physics says that the energy needed to separate the hydrogen and oxygen molecules (provided by the car battery in this video) is equal to the energy that you will get burning them in the combustion chamber and propelling the vehicle. |
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September 25th, 2017, 07:03 AM | #3 |
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It doesn't work. Because of losses, it takes more to separate the gasses than what you get back.
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September 25th, 2017, 08:35 AM | #4 |
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Unless you have catalyst that aids in separation....
There was converted Cadillac in '80s that supposedly ran on water. GM bought it and shelved all the technology. Germany had experimental engines that supposedly did this at end of WWII. It's possible net positive energy output can be achieved. I suspect a lot of innovative tech is suppressed because it would take A LOT of money from oil barons... Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 25th, 2017 at 10:26 AM. |
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September 25th, 2017, 09:03 AM | #5 |
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Separating the gases is the bottleneck. Electrolysis uses a *lot* of energy. If you could use solar energy to do it, that might help, but for now they haven't figure out a good way to get the hydrogen separated.
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September 25th, 2017, 12:17 PM | #6 |
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That's a very old story in American folklore. It's been told long before the '80s in other forms, like the special carburetor that gets 100 mpg, but was bought by big oil and kept secret.
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September 25th, 2017, 01:42 PM | #7 |
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Separating water into H and O then letting them react is less a fuel source and more a battery. The 'cost' is borne in the manufacture. You can generate it with basically any power source -- solar, nuclear, coal, human on a stationary bicycle.
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September 25th, 2017, 03:11 PM | #8 |
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I suspect extra external battery is to make up for energy-deficit as bike can't supply break-even energy to keep water-cracking going. System consumes more energy than it generates. The external battery needs to be charged from external source such as wall-outlet; not from bike.
Otherwise if true, this guy's going to have a bike "accident" and his technology will magically disappear... |
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September 25th, 2017, 03:36 PM | #9 |
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Don't worry Bobby Rick, if the system worked, there would be many billions of dollars to be had building systems to supply all of the world's energy needs, and the inventor would survive and be rich.
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September 25th, 2017, 10:41 PM | #10 |
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water for gas. brown’s gas
https://water4gas.com/ reason ya don’t hear it about it is because big oil suppression.
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September 25th, 2017, 10:55 PM | #11 |
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Or, you know, conservation of energy.
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September 25th, 2017, 11:20 PM | #12 |
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Another article mentions he has to recharge his external battery after 10-hrs.
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September 26th, 2017, 01:20 AM | #14 |
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Why? It has highest energy output per gram of any fuel. Problem is storing and delivering it. This makes it difficult as retrofit. If designed from start with hydrogen as fuel, woud be same as CNG or propane engine.
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September 26th, 2017, 04:53 AM | #15 |
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Hydrogen is very viable. It is being piloted in the USA.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-hydrogen-leap Honda has a Hydro vehicle as well. I saw another video of a guy with his own particle accelerator (in his yard) who made a water splitting hydrogen powered corvette but he was complaining that he was technically not allowed to purchase the material needed as the catalyst to make his vehicle efficient. He created the material in his yard accelerator, which is not a "sale". Not positive that it's true, but it seems like it could be. In any case, we are on the cusp of being able to make this a reality. I am a little excited about it. If there were fueling stations near me, and I found that they were efficient about producing the hydrogen, I might even be an early adopter. |
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September 26th, 2017, 06:56 AM | #16 |
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Funny how these schemes seem to ignore that. A few years ago a guy I knew was working on a system that used solar collectors to run a turbine to generate electricity. His estimates of the power he was going to get seemed off, so I calculated the most he could possibly get using Carnot efficiency. His huge system was going to get him about 1 kW at best. He got angry at me, and told me that the Carnot efficiency limit didn't apply in his system. Of course the system never got built.
The idea that there are systems to make power cheaply, but a powerful entity like big oil, or the car manufacturers, or the government has suppressed them has been around since the early days of cars, at least. The trouble with those conspiracy theories is that there is huge money to be made if those systems worked, and it would be impossible to sweep the information under the rug and make it go away, especially with all the countries around the world that would benefit. The closest thing I've seen to a real energy conspiracy was the controversy around large NiMH batteries, back when they were the answer to electric power storage problems for vehicles. |
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September 26th, 2017, 08:44 AM | #17 |
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Color me skeptical. Without details it seems improbable; as stated above it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen from the H2O than burning the hydrogen delivers. Its interesting to me that scams like these still get press coverage while real world achievements like we have accomplished in the Vetter Challenge ( 235 mpg gasoline, 180 mpg biofuel diesel, > 150 mile electric range , traveling normal speeds with the ability to carry 4 bags of groceries) get very little. Better energy usage is possible but it's hard to get the average consumer interested in making the choices needed to achieve them. Scam news like this don't help.
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September 26th, 2017, 08:53 AM | #18 |
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Another thought from another perspective:
Anyone ever seen an industrial accident where hydrogen went boom? The flame is near invisible. The burn is ridiculously quick (to the point of an explosion), and as soon as hydrogen escapes into the atmosphere, it stealthily finds an ignition source. Gas, on the other hand, burns slower, is visible, doesn't burn as hot (I think), and all fire crews are currently trained on how to deal with gasoline fires. I'll take gasoline, thanks. I don't want a bunch of little invisible burning bombs driving around. People suck enough at driving as it is. |
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September 26th, 2017, 10:55 AM | #19 |
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There *are* cases of oil companies buying patents to things that would be replacements and improvements on the current technologies, and shelving them. So while it's not happening constantly, there are a lot of things which have been hidden.
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September 26th, 2017, 11:10 AM | #20 | |
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Ultimate evolution of free-market capitalism is monopoly. Those are lazy fat cats who don't like change. Why bother wasting energy and effort on innovation and change when you can get even fatter easier by just squelching it! Similar parallels can be seen in U.S. telecom companies fighting for rmonopoly (Motorola vs. Qualcomm) compared to cooperative efforts between Nokia and Ericsson who invented standards that left both U.S. companies in dust while they were fighting in court. |
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September 26th, 2017, 11:38 AM | #21 |
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September 26th, 2017, 11:49 AM | #22 | |
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Patents are publicly available, so buying the rights to a patent doesn't hide the invention. The details are available to everyone as soon as the patent is issued. That's why companies like Coca Cola don't patent their recipes, they choose to keep them secret. |
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September 26th, 2017, 02:11 PM | #23 | |
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The big money is on the upstream side. Infrastructure installation is contractor work, not big oil work. Also, it's often more cost effective to let someone else take the hit by installing the infrastructure and just buy them outright later. |
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September 26th, 2017, 02:16 PM | #24 |
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Even more cost effective and profitable to just bury them and continue milking your fat-cat monopoly. Don't forget U.S. Gov. pays oil-companies subsidies for every gallon they sell. So no sense in throwing free money away by doing anything to sell less petrol.
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September 26th, 2017, 07:34 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
Comparing this to a court battle over tech patents is grossly irrelevant. They were not attempting a monopoly in that case and the diversified suppliers of refined products are not attempting a monopoly. Not sure what tech wonderment you imagine existing that is not available today because of that suit, but there is nothing out of our reach. And while we are on the subject, sometime big companies do buy the rights to a product to slow its development, and sometimes they just screw up. I know none of us had ever had an experience with a large corporation who could simply not get a basic function done and jacked it all up in spite of themselves. /sarcasm/ This incompetence is real in big corporations. Last futzed with by dz0; October 3rd, 2017 at 05:15 PM. |
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September 27th, 2017, 06:44 AM | #26 | |
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Is it more profitable for these big guys to curb the technology until it is absolutely needed? Do you really think they care about other people more then their profits? |
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September 27th, 2017, 07:17 AM | #27 | |
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As far as caring about profits more than people, I'll leave that generalization for others to make, but a big company that doesn't care about profits will end up putting a lot of employees out of work. |
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September 27th, 2017, 09:21 AM | #28 |
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The whole "evil company suppressing technology in the name of profit" line has always rung hollow for me.
Corporations are not evil. They are amoral (not the same thing as immoral). They exist to do one thing: Make profits. Anything that increases profit is good. That can be done by increasing sales, cutting costs or both. Does anyone seriously believe that the ENORMOUS costs and vast risk of oil exploration, extraction, refining and distribution are seen as a benefit by the energy companies? If you were the CEO of ShellExMobPetronLukoil and you had the opportunity to make profits in the energy sector without those costs and risks.... you'd be all over that like ugly on an ape, right? It is therefore in the oil companies' best interests to incorporate alternatives into their mix of products, in order to position themselves for the future. Worry not... if it exists, they'll figure out a way to make it profitable. Example: Say the technology for algae-produced biodiesel achieves commercially viable scale, and the net cost is lower than extraction and refining of petroleum for an equivalent product. It would be flat-out stupid for an oil company not to buy into that tech rather than suppressing it. Why? Not because it's greener. Because it's more profitable. The second alternative energy (seen as a whole system) is able to generate profits comparable to petroleum, you can bet your last dime that the energy companies will change their business models. We'll still be buying fuel/energy from the same people, just in a different form. Suppressing technology in the short term doesn't ring true, either. They know full well that over time, the cost and risk of exploration and production increase. Stalling tactics only increase their costs. The age-old axiom of TANSTAAFL applies. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. There are no miracle technologies stashed away in some oil exec's drawer.
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September 27th, 2017, 02:14 PM | #29 |
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Any new tech will come with a lot of development costs. Oil is an established thing. At best, I would expect a company to wait until someone else comes up with the systems to do things.
It makes sense to keep a competing tech off the market. Stable profits, vs this other guy who has a good invention but will reduce your profits. You could buy the patent, and own the profits, but there's a lot of input money needed to get to that point. And who says you will get more profit from the new system than you do from oil? |
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September 27th, 2017, 02:25 PM | #30 |
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I betcha the oil companies do a lot of research on new technologies they can use in the future. 30 seconds of searching turned up this, as an example:
https://www.chevron.com/corporate-re...newable-energy |
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September 27th, 2017, 03:55 PM | #31 |
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As the price of oil goes up, the risk of developing an alternative looks more and more profitable in the long term. Economics will win in the long run.
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September 27th, 2017, 10:06 PM | #32 |
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September 28th, 2017, 07:20 AM | #33 | |
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September 28th, 2017, 11:00 AM | #34 | |
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Prices are apparently quite high in other countries who don't subsidize. |
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September 28th, 2017, 11:30 AM | #35 |
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A major cause of higher gasoline prices in other countries is a very high tax, as opposed to a lack of subsidies. I've read that subsidies in the US may account for about 5 cents per gallon overall.
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September 28th, 2017, 01:04 PM | #36 |
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It's a complex book-making scheme with subsidies though. A lot of it comes in through tax-credits and loopholes. For example:
2009 Exxon Mobil paid $00.00 zero, zilch, nada dollars in taxes. 2010 Exxon Mobil paid $7.5bil in taxes, or just 1/2 the regular corporate rate. Personally I 'd like to see $1-2/gal alternate-energy tax collected up-front at pump that doesn't get washed through the oil-companies' books. Then have that really be used for research and infrastructure upgrade. We're way behind the curve on this. In many places in Europe, you have electric-car only sections of downtown. And parking-meters have built-in chargers for electric cars. |
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September 28th, 2017, 10:52 PM | #37 | |
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Electric car only areas? Cool! I know some cities are restricting when gas cars can drive into downtown. |
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October 1st, 2017, 05:55 PM | #38 | |
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2. Patents are not permanent. At best they could delay implementation by 20 years by doing what you propose. |
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October 3rd, 2017, 05:18 PM | #39 |
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Perhaps, but it is ALREADY happening.
You might have seen a Tesla car on the street. You might have sen "hybrid" parking spaced if you didn't notice the hybrid car. You might even have noticed the Shell hydrogen refueling stations in CA. Have you noticed that your electric bill now has "delivery fee" and supplier charge on it? The changes have been developing for years. +1 VaFish patents are public and have a lifespan. Last futzed with by dz0; October 4th, 2017 at 10:55 AM. |
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October 3rd, 2017, 05:32 PM | #40 |
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