Valve clearance adjustment problem

nbilling · June 8th, 2015, 02:41 PM

Hi all, I recently bought my first bike (a used 88-07 Ninja 250) and decided I would do all of the maintenance on it myself, since I only paid $1000 for it and I have no idea what, if any, maintenance the previous owner did.

I rode the bike myself for several weeks before I decided to start working on it, to the office and just cruising around. Maybe 400 miles total, didn't notice any problems at all.

I picked valve clearance adjustment first because the ninja wiki said it should be done cold, and incredibly foolishly I thought I would have time on the day to do a bunch of jobs therefore I should do the one that required a cold engine first. Well, it turned out that I didn't finish the first adjustment for days and days.

In any case, when I finally finished and started the engine it made a terrible noise. I took the bike back apart and readjusted them (the first time I had mistaken the imperial markings on my feeler gauge for metric). This second time the engine sounded very healthy and I was quite proud of myself. I went for a 30 or so minute ride and life was good.

This morning I got on my bike and rode to work (again, about 30 minutes, but with more sitting in traffic), and about 400 yards from my office I took off from a stop sign and my engine started vibrating weirdly and making a funny sound. I got in and parked fine, but now I'm worried about riding home and about my ability to fix what's wrong.

I'm pretty sure that my valve adjustment is to blame, and just exploring my options I called a nearby mechanic and they estimated like $650 to $700 to adjust the valves so that sounds like a definite no-go on a $1000 bike.

Here is my best description of how the engine is being weird (I went for a very short ride at lunch to get food and try and work out what was wrong with the engine):
- Acceleration feels kind of bursty/unstable.
- Rolling off the throttle all the way, the revs dip down really far below idle before sputtering back up. The engine almost stalls (with the clutch all the way in, or even in neutral).
- There is kind of an overtone to the normal engine sound, it sounds kind of like someone typing a word on a typewriter. It will go something like half second of no sound, half second of typewriter sound, half second of no sound, half second of typewriter sound, etc.

The engine felt so good right after I adjusted the valves, I was sure that I had done it right. Is it possible that I didn't tighten something enough and they loosened over time? Am I going to do permanent damage to my valves if I ride home (about 12 miles) from work so I can attempt to check the valve clearances again?

dcj13 · June 8th, 2015, 03:33 PM

Welcome, NB!

Did you tighten up the locknuts on all 8 valve adjusters?

nbilling · June 8th, 2015, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcj13

Welcome, NB!

Did you tighten up the locknuts on all 8 valve adjusters?

I did, but not to the torque spec because I had a lot of trouble getting my torque wrench into position. IIRC the 9mm socket for my (3/8" drive) torque wrench is actually too wide to fit between the engine case and the locknut on the exhaust valve adjusters.

I'm a total newbie when it comes to auto maintenance (this was my first attempt to work on a bike or car), but my gut feeling based on what happened is that one or more of the locknuts wasn't tight enough and managed to get loose.

dcj13 · June 8th, 2015, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbilling

...my gut feeling based on what happened is that one or more of the locknuts wasn't tight enough and managed to get loose.

My thought, too.

dcj13 · June 8th, 2015, 04:41 PM

The Kawasaki valve adjusting tool (part number 57001-1220) works well, but one can't apply specific torque to the lock nut. One just applies "German torque": guttentight (in other words, snug it up by feel).

nbilling · June 8th, 2015, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcj13

My thought, too.

Pretty sure I'm asking a question I already know the answer to but: should I buy a small (1/4" drive) torque wrench for tightening the locknuts before I take another stab at it?

EMSRacer07 · June 8th, 2015, 05:07 PM

sounds like since u did the valves wrong the first time the pistons might have touched one or more and bent them. Would explain the power surging, inability to keep an idle bc of vacuum/lack of air. And the typewriter sound could be a loose valve.

Best case scenario is that one of the rockers came loose bc of the lack of tightening which would cause the valve not to move at all and cause the same issues ur having. Plus the rocker bouncing around would make the ticking sound.

You really just need to open the top up again and take a look. Also if you dont see anything wrong go pick up a rental compression tester at an auto zone and test for compression to see if its good. This will tell if you have a bent valve

ducatiman · June 8th, 2015, 05:43 PM

nbilling-

you are using a service manual for reference/guidance?

Rotating each cylinder to TDC before adjusting?

nbilling · June 8th, 2015, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducatiman

nbilling-

you are using a service manual for reference/guidance?

Rotating each cylinder to TDC before adjusting?

I'm using http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What_is...t_procedure%3F as a reference, do not have a service manual. I'm open to ordering one if it contains some extra info that will help

I think I'm rotating to TDC for each set of valves before adjusting them. I was not using the 1|T and 2|T markings, but by trying to line the cam lobe perpendicular to the face of the rocker (as the above wiki suggests). That is to say, each cam lobe was directly pointing away from it's rocker when I adjusted its clearance. The procedure I used was like "rotate engine CCW until cylinder 1 intake is in position, adjust both valves, rotate engine CCW until cylinder 2 intake is in position, adjust both valves, rotate engine CCW until cylinder 1 exhaust in position, adjust both valves, rotate engine CCW until cylinder 2 exhaust in position, adjust both valves."

The term TDC makes me a bit uneasy, since the diagrams they show have the lobe pointing away from the rocker and since the rocker is not perfectly horizontal, the lobe is not pointing dead straight up. It's like 30 degrees for the exhaust and 60 degrees for the intake.

ducatiman · June 8th, 2015, 06:45 PM

lobe up method is fine, just checking

but a double check of your performed work would be wise

nbilling · June 8th, 2015, 07:44 PM

Rode home without my engine seizing up or anything. It's pretty hot today so I doubt the engine will be cool enough for me to take a peek at the valves until tomorrow.

My plan is to take all the non-engine stuff off tonight, so tomorrow I can just take off the valve cover and check it out without any hassle. Dying to see in there and confirm/disconfirm the locknut loosening hypothesis!

dcj13 · June 9th, 2015, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbilling

Pretty sure I'm asking a question I already know the answer to but: should I buy a small (1/4" drive) torque wrench for tightening the locknuts before I take another stab at it?

I'd recommend no. The Kawasaki tool is nice because it has the screwdriver for holding the shaft still while you tighten the lock nut. (the screwdriver runs through the center of the 9mm wrench. "German torque" is fine: snug; not too tight.

nbilling · June 9th, 2015, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcj13

I'd recommend no. The Kawasaki tool is nice because it has the screwdriver for holding the shaft still while you tighten the lock nut. (the screwdriver runs through the center of the 9mm wrench. "German torque" is fine: snug; not too tight.

Is this just a convenience thing? I didn't feel like it was that hard to just loosen the locknut to where I could move the adjuster screw (just using a screwdriver, not making any effort to stop locknut from turning), make adjustment, then retighten locknut and double check clearance. I don't think any of them even needed to be readjusted after tightening the locknut.

dcj13 · June 9th, 2015, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbilling

Is this just a convenience thing? I didn't feel like it was that hard to just loosen the locknut to where I could move the adjuster screw (just using a screwdriver, not making any effort to stop locknut from turning), make adjustment, then retighten locknut and double check clearance. I don't think any of them even needed to be readjusted after tightening the locknut.

Yes. Just a convenience: it allows you to hold the adjuster screw with the screwdriver while you tighten the locknut.

I'll loan you the tool if you want...

nbilling · June 9th, 2015, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcj13

Yes. Just a convenience: it allows you to hold the adjuster screw with the screwdriver while you tighten the locknut.

I'll loan you the tool if you want...

Very tempting, since it seems like you live nearby! I already ordered a 1/4" torque wrench because I'm paranoid about leaving the locknuts loose now, but no reason why I can't use both.

dcj13 · June 9th, 2015, 05:43 PM

Bummer. Coulda loaned you the quarter inch torque wrench...

nbilling · June 9th, 2015, 11:56 PM

Ok so I opened the valve cover and all the locknuts appear to be holding. They aren't super tight (almost certainly below the factory spec), but I don't think one of them shaking loose is what caused the issue. Looking around further I can see for sure that something is wrong.

Here is one of the cylinder 2 exhaust valve rockers:

It looks fine.

Here is one of the cylinder 2 intake rockers:

... and it's nut:

These are busted somehow. It looks like the rocker is detached from the valve and jammed under one side of the cam. I tried to gently shift it back to the middle of the cam with a little screwdriver but it was stuck. It was quite hard to see inside but it sort of looked like the face of the rocker might have gotten damaged (although reading the ninja wiki it is normal for them to get worn down I think?).

I guess now I need to work out what I did that caused this to happen, what (if anything) needs to be replaced, and how to fix the valve. Any ideas?

e: in case it is unclear-- only one of the 8 valves is broken as far as I can see.

EMSRacer07 · June 10th, 2015, 12:10 PM

only takes one valve to not operate to cause your issues.

I dont remember how to take the rocker out but I am pretty sure the cams have to come out. Someone else should chime in. I would replace the rocker. Call a kawi dealer or ebay and see if you can find one to replace it.

It might just need to loosen the cams on that side to put the rocker back.

ducatiman · June 10th, 2015, 06:20 PM

before arbitrarily pulling cams, the crank and cam timing marks should be aligned, assuring cam timing goes back precisely as it was.

Check your manual or wiki on this important aspect. If the cam timing is whacked out within your repair attempt....even further damage can ensue.

The cams and valvetrain need to be carefully inspected for damage due to broken parts rollin' around up there. A compression test is advisable to ensure no bent valves. Also....i'd advise turning the engine over by hand (remove spark plugs first) to make sure nothing is binding/interfering BEFORE engaging starter and causing further damage.

As you are new to this....you may elect to enlist qualified help at this point.

xorbe · June 10th, 2015, 07:00 PM

Did a dog ear break off a rocker?

nbilling · June 10th, 2015, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xorbe

Did a dog ear break off a rocker?

I'm not sure what this means. I was planning to try and take some better photos but was busy this evening so I wasn't able. Can you explain how I'll know if that happened?

xorbe · June 11th, 2015, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbilling

I'm not sure what this means. I was planning to try and take some better photos but was busy this evening so I wasn't able. Can you explain how I'll know if that happened?

Found it, this page explains:
http://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/06/ov...ts-during.html

nbilling · June 11th, 2015, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xorbe

Found it, this page explains:
http://n4mwd.blogspot.com/2013/06/ov...ts-during.html

Very interesting! I still need to get my proper camera out and take better photos, and after that I'll try to remove the busted rocker arm and check the 'dog ears'.

I definitely agree with ducatiman that I should get someone experienced to help in person at this point. I'm sure I can find motorcycle mechanics in the area, but I feel like I'll be missing a learning opportunity if I hand the bike off to someone else and they fix it on their own.

If I had a choice I'd rather pay someone to walk me through diagnosing/fixing the problem. Is that a service that already exists?

nbilling · June 19th, 2015, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nbilling

Very interesting! I still need to get my proper camera out and take better photos, and after that I'll try to remove the busted rocker arm and check the 'dog ears'.

I definitely agree with ducatiman that I should get someone experienced to help in person at this point. I'm sure I can find motorcycle mechanics in the area, but I feel like I'll be missing a learning opportunity if I hand the bike off to someone else and they fix it on their own.

If I had a choice I'd rather pay someone to walk me through diagnosing/fixing the problem. Is that a service that already exists?

I found a mechanic to come and look at my bike and help me figure out what's wrong and how to fix it etc. We disassembled the engine top end and found that indeed one of the rocker arms had a damaged 'ear' on the underside. It wasn't damaged as badly as the photos on the blog posted above, but it probably doesn't matter since it was enough for the rocker arm to move out of place.

The mechanic said that that the cam shaft and other rocker arms seem fine, but he said we should polish the cam shafts anyway to be sure. I'll have to order a replacement rocker arm, and then I can get the same guy to come out and direct me as I try to find the bit of material that broke off the rocker arm in the engine and reassemble everything.

Thanks for the help everyone, hopefully I'll have my ex250 back up and running in no time!

June 8th, 2015, 02:41 PM	#1
nbilling ninjette.org member Name: nbilling Location: Kirkland, WA Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 88-07 Ninja 250 Posts: 11	Valve clearance adjustment problem Hi all, I recently bought my first bike (a used 88-07 Ninja 250) and decided I would do all of the maintenance on it myself, since I only paid $1000 for it and I have no idea what, if any, maintenance the previous owner did. I rode the bike myself for several weeks before I decided to start working on it, to the office and just cruising around. Maybe 400 miles total, didn't notice any problems at all. I picked valve clearance adjustment first because the ninja wiki said it should be done cold, and incredibly foolishly I thought I would have time on the day to do a bunch of jobs therefore I should do the one that required a cold engine first. Well, it turned out that I didn't finish the first adjustment for days and days. In any case, when I finally finished and started the engine it made a terrible noise. I took the bike back apart and readjusted them (the first time I had mistaken the imperial markings on my feeler gauge for metric). This second time the engine sounded very healthy and I was quite proud of myself. I went for a 30 or so minute ride and life was good. This morning I got on my bike and rode to work (again, about 30 minutes, but with more sitting in traffic), and about 400 yards from my office I took off from a stop sign and my engine started vibrating weirdly and making a funny sound. I got in and parked fine, but now I'm worried about riding home and about my ability to fix what's wrong. I'm pretty sure that my valve adjustment is to blame, and just exploring my options I called a nearby mechanic and they estimated like $650 to $700 to adjust the valves so that sounds like a definite no-go on a $1000 bike. Here is my best description of how the engine is being weird (I went for a very short ride at lunch to get food and try and work out what was wrong with the engine): - Acceleration feels kind of bursty/unstable. - Rolling off the throttle all the way, the revs dip down really far below idle before sputtering back up. The engine almost stalls (with the clutch all the way in, or even in neutral). - There is kind of an overtone to the normal engine sound, it sounds kind of like someone typing a word on a typewriter. It will go something like half second of no sound, half second of typewriter sound, half second of no sound, half second of typewriter sound, etc. The engine felt so good right after I adjusted the valves, I was sure that I had done it right. Is it possible that I didn't tighten something enough and they loosened over time? Am I going to do permanent damage to my valves if I ride home (about 12 miles) from work so I can attempt to check the valve clearances again?

June 8th, 2015, 05:07 PM	#7
EMSRacer07 ninjette.org sage Name: Byron Location: Reno, NV Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja ex250 1990 Posts: 761	sounds like since u did the valves wrong the first time the pistons might have touched one or more and bent them. Would explain the power surging, inability to keep an idle bc of vacuum/lack of air. And the typewriter sound could be a loose valve. Best case scenario is that one of the rockers came loose bc of the lack of tightening which would cause the valve not to move at all and cause the same issues ur having. Plus the rocker bouncing around would make the ticking sound. You really just need to open the top up again and take a look. Also if you dont see anything wrong go pick up a rental compression tester at an auto zone and test for compression to see if its good. This will tell if you have a bent valve __________________________________________________ 1990 250F. ex300 motor swap, 15/42 gearing, flush side markers, newgen intergrated front fairing, rear integrated turn signals, DB Touring Bubble, zx600 rear shock, Custom DanMoto Exhaust

June 10th, 2015, 12:10 PM	#18
EMSRacer07 ninjette.org sage Name: Byron Location: Reno, NV Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja ex250 1990 Posts: 761	only takes one valve to not operate to cause your issues. I dont remember how to take the rocker out but I am pretty sure the cams have to come out. Someone else should chime in. I would replace the rocker. Call a kawi dealer or ebay and see if you can find one to replace it. It might just need to loosen the cams on that side to put the rocker back. __________________________________________________ 1990 250F. ex300 motor swap, 15/42 gearing, flush side markers, newgen intergrated front fairing, rear integrated turn signals, DB Touring Bubble, zx600 rear shock, Custom DanMoto Exhaust

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June 8th, 2015, 03:33 PM	#2
dcj13 Participant Name: Dave Location: South of Seattle Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): '94 K75 std Posts: Too much. MOTM - Aug '15	Welcome, NB! Did you tighten up the locknuts on all 8 valve adjusters?

June 8th, 2015, 04:41 PM	#5
dcj13 Participant Name: Dave Location: South of Seattle Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): '94 K75 std Posts: Too much. MOTM - Aug '15	The Kawasaki valve adjusting tool (part number 57001-1220) works well, but one can't apply specific torque to the lock nut. One just applies "German torque": guttentight (in other words, snug it up by feel).

June 8th, 2015, 05:43 PM	#8
ducatiman ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Gordon Location: new york Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot. MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17	nbilling- you are using a service manual for reference/guidance? Rotating each cylinder to TDC before adjusting?

June 8th, 2015, 06:45 PM	#10
ducatiman ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Gordon Location: new york Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot. MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17	lobe up method is fine, just checking but a double check of your performed work would be wise

June 8th, 2015, 07:44 PM	#11
nbilling ninjette.org member Name: nbilling Location: Kirkland, WA Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 88-07 Ninja 250 Posts: 11	Rode home without my engine seizing up or anything. It's pretty hot today so I doubt the engine will be cool enough for me to take a peek at the valves until tomorrow. My plan is to take all the non-engine stuff off tonight, so tomorrow I can just take off the valve cover and check it out without any hassle. Dying to see in there and confirm/disconfirm the locknut loosening hypothesis!

June 9th, 2015, 05:43 PM	#16
dcj13 Participant Name: Dave Location: South of Seattle Join Date: Oct 2012 Motorcycle(s): '94 K75 std Posts: Too much. MOTM - Aug '15	Bummer. Coulda loaned you the quarter inch torque wrench...

June 9th, 2015, 11:56 PM	#17
nbilling ninjette.org member Name: nbilling Location: Kirkland, WA Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): 88-07 Ninja 250 Posts: 11	Ok so I opened the valve cover and all the locknuts appear to be holding. They aren't super tight (almost certainly below the factory spec), but I don't think one of them shaking loose is what caused the issue. Looking around further I can see for sure that something is wrong. Here is one of the cylinder 2 exhaust valve rockers: It looks fine. Here is one of the cylinder 2 intake rockers: ... and it's nut: These are busted somehow. It looks like the rocker is detached from the valve and jammed under one side of the cam. I tried to gently shift it back to the middle of the cam with a little screwdriver but it was stuck. It was quite hard to see inside but it sort of looked like the face of the rocker might have gotten damaged (although reading the ninja wiki it is normal for them to get worn down I think?). I guess now I need to work out what I did that caused this to happen, what (if anything) needs to be replaced, and how to fix the valve. Any ideas? e: in case it is unclear-- only one of the 8 valves is broken as far as I can see.

June 10th, 2015, 06:20 PM	#19
ducatiman ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Gordon Location: new york Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R Posts: A lot. MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17	before arbitrarily pulling cams, the crank and cam timing marks should be aligned, assuring cam timing goes back precisely as it was. Check your manual or wiki on this important aspect. If the cam timing is whacked out within your repair attempt....even further damage can ensue. The cams and valvetrain need to be carefully inspected for damage due to broken parts rollin' around up there. A compression test is advisable to ensure no bent valves. Also....i'd advise turning the engine over by hand (remove spark plugs first) to make sure nothing is binding/interfering BEFORE engaging starter and causing further damage. As you are new to this....you may elect to enlist qualified help at this point.

June 10th, 2015, 07:00 PM	#20
xorbe ninjette.org guru Name: xorbe Location: Bay Area, CA Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): N650 (and others) Posts: 408	Did a dog ear break off a rocker?