Electric motos

[greenaero]

Last week I went to visit Craig Vetter with Alan Smith. It was the first time I had had a chance to see Craig since his serious injuries from the collision with a deer. We had a good visit and we discussed this year's Vetter Fuel Economy Challenges. Craig is doing as well as can be expected but he has a long recovery ahead of him,

While I was there, Craig's son Zak let me test ride his Zero. I was very impressed with it: the acceleration is awesome, good handling, good brakes. The only other electric moto I've ridden was Kraig Schultz' one-off, also very impressive, but the Zero was very refined and operates very much like a conventional fuel-powered moto. It's weird having such strong acceleration without noise and the need for gear-shifting. For me the only downside was the limited range ( ~ 40 miles for the off-road battery pack, ~ 60 70 miles for the street battery pack) and the high price. That said, I think electric motos will eventually supplant ICE motos as battery technology improves and the price of electric motos become more competitive with ICE motos.
What are your thoughts on electric motos?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by greenaero

Last week I went to visit Craig Vetter with Alan Smith. It was the first time I had had a chance to see Craig since his serious injuries from the collision with a deer.........What are your thoughts on electric motos?

Thanks for the news about his recovery.
Hopefully, he will ride again.

The lack of noise and shifting seems tragic to me.

Internal combustion engines can only deliver useful torque within a limited range of rpm's, due to breathing problems.
The higher the performance, the narrower than range.

Electric engines are reactive electro-magnets (no breathing involved) and can deliver max torque at a wider range of rpm's.
They can use the brake effect of becoming a generator and charging the battery during deceleration of the bike.

The battery or source of power has always been the Achilles heel, due to weight, cost and limited range.
Battery technology is quickly heading to much better options.

[corksil]

The lack of noise and shifting are also a deal killer for me.

Would be too heavy and too much of a power draw to hook up a speaker system capable of duplicating the chortling lopey idle of a high performance big cam motor.

When I twist the throttle all the way, I want to feel it in my chest.

[MrAtom]

While I very much enjoy the quirks and charms of a vehicle that has an internal combustion engine, I don't think the introduction of electric motorcycles into the world and the possible replacement of ICE bikes with electric bikes is something to be mourned. I do think it's kind of dumb, because if you plug it in to charge it, chances are, it's a coal-powered bike instead of a gas-powered bike. Whoop de ****ing doo. But I see myself on an electric motorcycle in the future, having as much fun as I do on an ICE bike.

["A"]

With battery technology improving every year and the advancement of electrical grid moving off coal to renewable sources.. I wouldn't be surprised if future EV moving to technology that charge the battery as it moves and do not require a large battery require recharge all the time.
Similar to this:

[NevadaWolf]

I would love an electric bike! The quiet, the smoothness, all what I want from my ride. I hate the sound of engines, loud and obnoxious.

The recharge time is what kills it for me. Even if I am on a local putter ride, I don't just ride for an hour, then sit for an hour, rinse, repeat.

Even if the range stays relatively low, if the recharge time could be reduced to mere minutes (<10), then I would get one.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

I hate the sound of engines, loud and obnoxious.

[adouglas]

Love the idea. Fewer parts, less maintenance, lower operating costs, reduced impact, all of that.

The cost/benefit is nowhere near close, though.

Range. Charge time. Acquisition cost. Lack of charging infrastructure.

I have two basic requirements:

- Range double my total commute for the day, minimum.

- Cost low enough to be offset by savings in fuel and oil over the life of the bike, or close to it. The math just doesn't work at current prices, and even if broad assumptions are made (like $5 fuel) it still doesn't pay off unless purchase prices come way down.

Even then, it'd be a commuter machine rather than a recreational bike. If I ride for fun I'm not staying close to home.

Everyone's waiting for the big breakthrough in battery technology. Maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't.

The bright side is that if it does, the advisability of purchase looks pretty favorable. It's never a good idea to buy v1.0 of anything, but just about all of the tech (except our hypothetical super-battery) is well proven. Shouldn't take it long to mature.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

I would love an electric bike! The quiet, the smoothness, all what I want from my ride. I hate the sound of engines, loud and obnoxious.

The recharge time is what kills it for me. Even if I am on a local putter ride, I don't just ride for an hour, then sit for an hour, rinse, repeat.

Even if the range stays relatively low, if the recharge time could be reduced to mere minutes (<10), then I would get one.

Except I do ride for an hour then it sits for 9 hours then I ride for an hour and it sits for 13 hours. rinse, repeat.

Battery tech is good enough to work for me now, so when my car is payed off, I will be getting an e-motorbike. 2 more years

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

... if you plug it in to charge it, chances are, it's a coal-powered bike instead of a gas-powered bike. Whoop de ****ing doo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ty_by_Coal.pdf

Given that only 39% of electricity production in this country comes from coal chances are that your electricity won't be coming from coal. In fact, even in the highest coal percentage state of Texas one can opt to purchase your power from a non-coal source, or better yet, a renewable source such as wind or solar. Or, if you have the funds, you can install your own solar and take your transportation energy completely off the grid.

Even if you buy coal-based power you'll be be better off in pollution terms because a fixed plant can have pollution-reducing technologies installed that weight dozens or hundreds of tons, something that no car could possibly get away with.

There's a sub-branch of science/engineering called "energetics", it deals with this subject quite a bit.

More reading here: http://www.plugincars.com/winning-co...-argument.html

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by adouglas

- Cost low enough to be offset by savings in fuel and oil over the life of the bike, or close to it. The math just doesn't work at current prices, and even if broad assumptions are made (like $5 fuel) it still doesn't pay off unless purchase prices come way down.

When you bought your latest vehicle (bike or car) did you do the same analysis to determine what brand and model to get? I'm just curious if total life cost of ownership is always the most important part of your buying decisions.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:E...ty_by_Coal.pdf

Given that only 39% of electricity production in this country comes from coal chances are that your electricity won't be coming from coal. In fact, even in the highest coal percentage state of Texas one can opt to purchase your power from a non-coal source, or better yet, a renewable source such as wind or solar. Or, if you have the funds, you can install your own solar and take your transportation energy completely off the grid.

Even if you buy coal-based power you'll be be better off in pollution terms because a fixed plant can have pollution-reducing technologies installed that weight dozens or hundreds of tons, something that no car could possibly get away with.

There's a sub-branch of science/engineering called "energetics", it deals with this subject quite a bit.

More reading here: http://www.plugincars.com/winning-co...-argument.html

[CaliGrrl]

Husband has a Brammo (now Victory) Empulse-R and loves it. Has shifter, and he really likes it. Range is 70-80 miles, and then it recharges however long it wants overnight in the garage. Sometimes we plug in at a charge station, depending what we're up to; uses the same plug as the electric cars. We usually charge for the time it takes to say, have lunch.

The difference I've seen in having an electric car vs a gas one is that the power is available immediately, with no lag and it's great.

[AlanDog]

Originally Posted by greenaero

While I was there, Craig's son Zak let me test ride his Zero. I was very impressed with it: the acceleration is awesome, good handling, good brakes. <snip> For me the only downside was the limited range ( ~ 40 miles for the off-road battery pack, ~ 60 70 miles for the street battery pack) and the high price.

It must of been the dual-sport FX model. I have had a 2014 Zero S since last April. My bike, with the optional power tank (which was thrown in for free!), can go a real 100+ miles IF I stay off the freeway. On the freeway, it'll go about 60 miles. The real bummer is that the standard AC charging takes 10 hours. Want 1-2 hour charging? It is available for about $3k more...

I can commute 12 miles each way, and can go three days without charging the bike, with capacity to spare. I've put over 4k miles on it, and overall I am super happy with the bike--although I can't imagine having it as an only bike, it is simply not a bike you can tour with or even ride all day.

But here are my three dirty little secrets about the Zero S/SR not found in any reviews:

1) Severely underpowered front brakes. Looks like a supermoto, but weighs 450 pounds, yet they put a single rotor front brake on it like it weighs 300 pounds... I've had the brakes completely fail at the bottom of a ~2000 foot windy downhill during my "normal" commute. Two minutes later they are perfect, they had overheated and recovered. Maybe I was charging into corner and braking, but that's what you do, right?

2) Super twitchy handling. My theory is that the frame geometry was designed in 2012 when the bike was underpowered. Yeah, it's great in a parking lot, but I've never expended so much effort steering a bike in a sweeping corner--it literally won't hold a line. I feels like you are on a thin line between slamming the bike into the inside of the turn and going wide, it's impossible to relax. I've owned seven different bikes. I immediately swapped in pilot road 3/4 tires which have a very flat profile and it has definitely helped.

3) A reader poll on the electric bike forum showed something like 40% of Zero buyers had a major issue with the bike that required dealer service. As I write this, I have been waiting about a month with my Zero in the shop--the dealer is waiting for Zero to come up with a fix for the issues--and the dealer has two other bikes with basically the same symptom (intermittent starting issues/electronic errors). And I bought this bike as a demo model with 2,000 miles on it, so I figured any issues would have been worked out. The dealer did say that none of the 2016 bikes have had issues... yet (2016 models have a redesigned controller).