why is countersteer explained so poorly?

[Brian]

So it's something that needs to happen for the bike to turn into a corner? I guess that makes us less of moron's because we've been doing it this whole time, or does it?..

Away with the confusing counter-steering definitions that frankly don't make sense.

I've had it explained to me during the MSF, my uncle who used to ride, and my step-dad. I also watched twist of the wrist 2 and have read a whole chapter out of "Proficient Motorcycling - The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" on turning; still can't grasp the idea that you turn the wheel this way > you will somehow turn < this way; but maybe I am looking for a more simple answer.

[Alex]

Maybe you're just slow.

[fast1075]

When I learned to ride (somewhere back in the Pre Cambrian) there were no "schools". You learned on your own and with advice from others.

When the topic of countersteer first came up in a discussion, I realized I had been doing just that. The difference was, I had developed the habit of leaning my body into the turn. Being short of arm, as I leaned left, I was PULLING the right bar.

Proficient cornering requires that you instinctively countersteer. One of the hard parts to understand is the physics of it do not work at very low speeds. Depending on the bike, that means slower than about 15 mph, it steers exactly like your first bicycle.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i may be wrong but i think the actual turning of the bike is actually done by the front tire turning into the turn. notice when you are sliding your front tire how you just go straight while leaned over. if it was the lean turning the bike you would continue to turn but when the front tire slides you go straight. because its the front tire turning into the turn to keep the bike upright that is doing the turning

if you look at videos of wheels that have come off of a vehicle, they are often at a steep angle even 45 degrees or so but still going along straight just fine until they slow down

Yes, the front tire does wind up angled into the turn. Take a bicycle and lean it over. What happens? The front tire flops to the side it's leaned, because of trail (steering geometry).

Once the bike does lean, those forces take over. The wheel flops over and tracks through the turn.

The purpose of the analogy was to demonstrate why counter steering makes the bike lean in the direction of the turn... the wheel flop happens as a consequence of that. My analogy didn't go that far because the table-top experiment only describes a wheel in isolation, not a two-wheeled vehicle with a steering axis, rake and trail.

Regarding sliding... think about the analogy again. The wheel is "tripping" and falling over to the opposite side because of traction. If you're sliding traction is taken out of the picture.

Do the same experiment, but on ice.... turn the wheel 90 degrees to the direction of travel and it just stays there because there's nothing making it fall over.

Wheels going straight after they come off a vehicle -- this is because of gyroscopic stability. Once they slow down they absolutely, 100 percent of the time, curve in the direction of lean. Physics works!

As far as intentionally going straight while you're leaned over, that works because the rider is maintaining pressure on the bars and forcing the bike to go straight. In fact, that's one of Lee Park's cornering steps (step 3, in which you counter steer the bike to the outside while your body is hanging off to the inside).

[ally99]

Originally Posted by jschorr

^^^^^Is that the way you ride all the time? No just sitting up and looking round. Maybe a little hand on The hip action? It is a very serious way to ride.

Edit: I don't mean that in a bad way by any means.

Much of the time, yes. When cornering, yes. To me it's comfortable and I enjoy working my core. I do sometimes relax on straight highways in a more upright position...sometimes I lay over my tank, hand on my thigh, upright and looking around, whatever. But if I'm cornering and really using the heck out of some countersteering action, then yes, that is how I'm riding. All the time.

[dfox]

enough of these hair-brained ideas of why a motorcycle turns.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rJT...namics&f=false

page 47 begins discussions on how and why a motorcycle turns. It's not just the direction of the wheel, but involves lots of other forces, like camber thrust (twisting moment).


/thread.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by ally99

Much of the time, yes. When cornering, yes. To me it's comfortable and I enjoy working my core. I do sometimes relax on straight highways in a more upright position...sometimes I lay over my tank, hand on my thigh, upright and looking around, whatever. But if I'm cornering and really using the heck out of some countersteering action, then yes, that is how I'm riding. All the time.

Not only that; at high speeds, the steering gets harder and additional force from the opposite peg-foot-leg and back is used to turn the handlebar around its pivot, which is the steering column.

That steering column is angled around 24 degrees respect to a vertical line, reason for which we must push forward and upward simultaneously: pushing down or loading the inside peg are as ineffective as leaning your body alone without using the poorly explained counter-steering technique.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

So it's something that needs to happen for the bike to turn into a corner? I guess that makes us less of moron's because we've been doing it this whole time, or does it?..

Away with the confusing counter-steering definitions that frankly don't make sense.

I've had it explained to me during the MSF, my uncle who used to ride, and my step-dad. I also watched twist of the wrist 2 and have read a whole chapter out of "Proficient Motorcycling - The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well" on turning; still can't grasp the idea that you turn the wheel this way > you will somehow turn < this way; but maybe I am looking for a more simple answer.

Do you want us to keep trying to explain this to you?

Again, I believe that it is very important that you, not only understand the concept, but practice emergency swerving at least once a week.

Maybe it is just the word what creates your confusion.
Counter-steering does not mean steer backwards.

The confusing name of that technique in actuality refers to the most effective way to throw your bike out of balance in order to lean it before you re-balance the machine to effectively complete a turn.
The technique works the same to straighten your bike out of a turn to either continue on on a straight trajectory or to turn to the opposite direction (like in a chicane).

1) Steering in any direction immediately generates a force that points radially out of the turn imposed by your steering input. (that centrifugal force that you feel in a turning car).

2) That force can be considered applied on the combined center of gravity of the motorcycle and the rider (let's say about the height of the bottom of the fuel tank).

3) As the tires cannot slide sideways, that force applied at that high point has leverage to roll the bike sideways and out of the turn imposed by your steering input.

I will keep trying as long as you are willing to understand to become a better and safer rider.

Copied from
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=109

"Let's take up question number one first. Can you steer your bike as fast as your car? If your answer is "no", my next questions are: What business do you have riding in traffic with cars that can out-maneuver you?, and, Ain't that dangerous? The answers, not pleasant ones to swallow, are: none and yes. You lose." - Keith Code

[jschorr]

Much of the time, yes. When cornering, yes. To me it's comfortable and I enjoy working my core

i must be getting to old for this, guess it's time to start shopping for a goldwing.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Do you want us to keep trying to explain this to you?

Again, I believe that it is very important that you, not only understand the concept, but practice emergency swerving at least once a week.

Maybe it is just the word what creates your confusion.
Counter-steering does not mean steer backwards.

The confusing name of that technique in actuality refers to the most effective way to throw your bike out of balance in order to lean it before you re-balance the machine to effectively complete a turn.
The technique works the same to straighten your bike out of a turn to either continue on on a straight trajectory or to turn to the opposite direction (like in a chicane).

Yes, I'm still SOOOOO lost. Can you please look at both 1:55 and 2:45 on how TTW 2 explains counter-steering? Am I going crazy??! This is how I've been initiating my turns, in an emergency swerve this would be done in a faster motion, right?

At MSF they made us practice a full arm handlebar rotation for the swerving around the cone exercise.(I was like wtf?) I remember doing it how I thought was right and I guess they approved..(I passed, also never ran over any cones) I don't think I was thrusting the handlebars side to side like Alex.s is saying he's doing, and I'm not going to do that with my own bike because I would end up on the ground..

"To tighten the turn you press your inside bar, to widen your turn and bring the bike up you press the outside bar.." displayed at 1:55 and 2:45

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

Yes, I'm still SOOOOO lost.

"To tighten the turn you press your inside bar, to widen your turn and bring the bike up you press the outside bar.." displayed at 1:55 and 2:45

"Press" means "push forward".

[jgcable]

Originally Posted by crazymadbastard

The way MSF teaches, is to Look where you want to go, roll off throttle lean and push the bar on the side that you are leaning into and then smoothly roll on the throttle. You can down load the MSF course booklet online.

The way I explain is that a bike turns by leaning, the way you lean the bike is by pushing on the bar on the side you wish to lean it. My reasoning is to think about a car, when you turn the wheel at speed to the right it leans left and vise versa. Because the car has more than 2 wheels it is forced to steer in the direction of the wheels, but still leans in opposition.

That sounds correct to me. Look where you want to go. Push down on the bar on the side you want to turn and lean to that side. In the beginning, go into turns slow on the inside and come out fast on the outside. If you go into a turn at the correct speed you will rarely if ever need to touch your brakes.

Of course.. at super low speed moves you need to counter balance too but that's when making severely sharp turns at extremely low speeds.

[rojoracing53]

It's not that hard people, go ride a bicycle and bam you counter steering, it's like bending at the knees when walking, it just happens automatically. The reason it's explained so poorly is because everyone wants there to be some greater meaning to how it works so that if they learn this all important secret it'll magically make them a better rider. There nothing deep or special about counter steering or bending your knees so leave it alone, stop focusing on it and just ride and focus on more important things like brake & throttle control or body English. By the way if its body English in the English language does the mean it body French in the French language

Racing and riding motorcycle for 10 years from an amateur to world level and it wasn't till I retired and started street riding and visiting Moto forums that I first learned about counter steering. Kinda odd to think counter steering being so important to learn that its completly not mentioned in any level of racing I've competed in

[rojoracing53]

You really want to learn how your pushing on the bars to steer your bike, I didn't really understand this whole counter steering thing when it was first brought to my attention till I was on a long ride and used my left hand to control the throttle to give my right hand a break. Try turning with only one hand(right only since you need to control the throttle) and pay attention to wether you pushing or pulling to turn right or left. If your a really good rider and there to cars around get yourself on a long strait away and use you left hand only on the throttle and gently add any input. You have a hard time flipping you brain to steer the bike but it'll be like someone just flipped the switch for the light bulb in your head.

You can do this same stuff on a bicycle with they tend to be much more twitchy and it'll feel very different if you manage to avoid crashing in the first place.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

It's not that hard people, go ride a bicycle and bam you counter steering, it's like bending at the knees when walking, it just happens automatically. The reason it's explained so poorly is because everyone wants there to be some greater meaning to how it works so that if they learn this all important secret it'll magically make them a better rider. There nothing deep or special about counter steering or bending your knees so leave it alone, stop focusing on it and just ride and focus on more important things like brake & throttle control or body English. By the way if its body English in the English language does the mean it body French in the French language

Racing and riding motorcycle for 10 years from an amateur to world level and it wasn't till I retired and started street riding and visiting Moto forums that I first learned about counter steering. Kinda odd to think counter steering being so important to learn that its completly not mentioned in any level of racing I've competed in

It is why there are no great riders who did not start on a motorbike at a very young age. Us Johnny-come-latelies have to think about thing like that before it settles into muscle memory in a brain that is not as malleable as when you started.

[csmith12]

Friend: What a day... 107 degrees and I had to work hard out there.
Me: Really? Sure it was hot but I wasn't really working all that hard.
Friend: Yea man, the back half is full of turns and it's rough in the heat.
Me: Yea, work smarter not harder
Friend: Aye? What do you mean?
Me: Next time your on you bike, look at the angle your arm is vs. the surface... horizontal.
Friend: What difference does that make?
Me: Youre tired and hot.... I am just hot.
Me: Once you figger that out, I can show you some other reasons you go home sore and I go home and take kung fu class.

[antiant]

Originally Posted by jschorr

so what about you guys, when your teaching someone how to ride how do you explain countersteer?

You don't.

I'm with @rojoracing53 on this. It isn't hard and most people try and make it more difficult than it is, by overanalyzing it and mind fukking themselves.

As a beginning rider, you don't need to explain countersteering because it happens naturally. It's like a baby's first crawl. Do you kneel down on the floor and try to explain to a baby that, "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction?" As they push their body against the floor, or try to stand and attempt to walk? No. It comes naturally and is inherent in the mechanics of how we function. We learn real quick what happens when we don't abide by those basic "physics laws." It becomes counterintuitive, to explain this to a beginner because they are already doing it (countersteering), but it just needs more time and experience to make it work really well. The beginner is going to go, "Huh? But you're telling me to do something, I'm already doing, let me try and wrap my head around this." That's where it leads to trouble.

Just like a baby trying to walk, eventually it clicks, they get it and they walk. When you disrupt that flow and try to explain it to them (when they are already doing it) you're going to confuse the hell out of them, to the point where they start overthinking, second guessing themselves and maybe even make mistakes because they are now focused on the technical/mechanics of countersteering than actually riding and letting it come naturally as it does.

Countersteering is something that you come back to with the technical explanations after the fact, when you want a deeper understanding of motorcycle mechanics and the physics behind it. You don't teach beginners or babies physics right off the bat, it's ass backwards, like walking before crawling. I think some of you have ridden so long and in some cases are so "advanced" that when it comes to the basics, you fail to have a connection with a beginner rider. There seems to be a disconnect. It's like an astrophysicist trying to explain things to a 3 year old.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by antiant

Countersteering is something that you come back to with the technical explanations after the fact, when you want a deeper understanding of motorcycle mechanics and the physics behind it.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by antiant

You don't.

I'm with @rojoracing53 on this. It isn't hard and most people try and make it more difficult than it is, by overanalyzing it and mind fukking themselves.

As a beginning rider, you don't need to explain countersteering because it happens naturally. It's like a baby's first crawl. Do you kneel down on the floor and try to explain to a baby that, "For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction?" As they push their body against the floor, or try to stand and attempt to walk? No. It comes naturally and is inherent in the mechanics of how we function. We learn real quick what happens when we don't abide by those basic "physics laws." It becomes counterintuitive, to explain this to a beginner because they are already doing it (countersteering), but it just needs more time and experience to make it work really well. The beginner is going to go, "Huh? But you're telling me to do something, I'm already doing, let me try and wrap my head around this." That's where it leads to trouble.

Just like a baby trying to walk, eventually it clicks, they get it and they walk. When you disrupt that flow and try to explain it to them (when they are already doing it) you're going to confuse the hell out of them, to the point where they start overthinking, second guessing themselves and maybe even make mistakes because they are now focused on the technical/mechanics of countersteering than actually riding and letting it come naturally as it does.

Countersteering is something that you come back to with the technical explanations after the fact, when you want a deeper understanding of motorcycle mechanics and the physics behind it. You don't teach beginners or babies physics right off the bat, it's ass backwards, like walking before crawling. I think some of you have ridden so long and in some cases are so "advanced" that when it comes to the basics, you fail to have a connection with a beginner rider. There seems to be a disconnect. It's like an astrophysicist trying to explain things to a 3 year old.

Originally Posted by csmith12

[Alex]

Originally Posted by antiant

Countersteering is something that you come back to with the technical explanations after the fact, when you want a deeper understanding of motorcycle mechanics and the physics behind it. You don't teach beginners or babies physics right off the bat, it's ass backwards, like walking before crawling. I think some of you have ridden so long and in some cases are so "advanced" that when it comes to the basics, you fail to have a connection with a beginner rider. There seems to be a disconnect. It's like an astrophysicist trying to explain things to a 3 year old.

I think it may be going down the wrong path if we get stuck explaining the details about why it works as it does. To agree with you and some other posters, understanding the why isn't the key lesson, or even a prereq to be able to just *do it*. That doesn't mean that it is as natural as crawling, and is picked up instinctually by all riders. There are endless amounts of videos we can all find where riders run off the outside of simple turns, with the complaint that the bike just wouldn't turn, and they were trying to turn as hard as they could. New riders can gain fundamental misunderstandings that leaning their body, or pushing on the pegs, or pulling the bike over, or any other associated movement is the main mechanism to turning the bike. When they are faced with a faster, less gentle turn for the first time, their lack of understanding can come back to bite them. Doing those ancillary motions as hard as they can isn't enough to keep the bike from running off the road. Proper instruction can avoid that.

I hear what you're saying as well Jason, but that also comes down to being able to learn step by step with a ton of trial and error from the earliest age, and finding out what you really do need to do to get a bike leaned over as fast as possible to turn as quickly and as controlled as possible. To your point, to get there, countersteering is exactly what you're doing, it just seems basic and instinctual. My 5 year old got exactly zero instruction in countersteering, or for that matter steering at all before being perched on a dirtbike. "turn this to go faster, squeeze this to go slower". As he is getting faster and smoother, some things really do come naturally if you have enough time to practice and learn in a gradual manner.

[cbinker]

Some people just over think counter steering. it is as simple as push the bar the direction you want to go.

[rojoracing53]

I didn't ride my first motorcycle till I was 15 and that was the practice day before my first race. Max Biaggi got his first motorcycle at age 17 and opted to take it to the track as well.

I can't say age has everything to do with it but it can help in the long run. Sure I've got talent for the two wheel sports but my adaptability has a lot to do with not thinking about much and letting my instincts guide me through. It's probably also for this reason in can follow someone else who's mastered a trail and replicate what they do even if I've never seen the trail before.

Ignorance is bliss and also the best way to master counter steering

[rojoracing53]

Fun fact:

I fail my first written Moto test at the DMV because of the push left, lean left, go left question. I was like WTF does any of that mean push the left bar, push the bars so the wheel goes left F**K IDK I'll just guess. Had I learned about counter steering in the forums before the test I wouldn't have missed that question.

I'm sure you all know how I feel about the MSF class, well don't get me started on the legitimacy of the written exam questions. I'll just say I felt dumber after passing

[warlord]

I took the MSF years ago and they explained countersteer just fine. They also talked about look, press, lean, go method I imagine mostly for test taking purposes. I agree with what most have said, we figure things out intuitively regardless of what others say and it becomes second nature.

What really is useful for understanding how steering a bike at speed works is this video by Keith Code and his no BS bike:

Link to original page on YouTube.

I know it was posted before but this really is what's going on.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

Yes, I'm still SOOOOO lost. Can you please look at both 1:55 and 2:45 on how TTW 2 explains counter-steering? Am I going crazy??! This is how I've been initiating my turns, in an emergency swerve this would be done in a faster motion, right?.........

I see no difference between the video and what we have tried to explain above.
You are not going crazy.

The pushing of the handle with one finger is to demonstrate that a minimum input (forward pushing, not down) creates a dramatic change in the leaning of the bike (towards the same side where pressure was applied).
Of course, higher speeds make the handlebar more difficult to turn and one finger is not enough then.

Yes, in an emergency, the input for quick swerving is faster, but it also requires a bigger angle of deviation (of the handlebar) from the neutral position.

Turning the handlebar more degrees reduces the radius of the "counter-turn" and increases the magnitude of the centrifugal force (that pushes the CG of the bike sideways), making it lean or tip or roll over.
More lateral force means that the bike leans or rolls over faster.

The faster you make the bike lean the stronger the counter-steering for stopping that roll over must be as you reach the proper lean angle to make the turn.
Yes, we tip the bike out of balance and into a lean and then we have to stop that rolling over movement at the proper angle: for both things (leaning over and straightening up) we use the confusing technique that we are discussing.

The same applies going in reverse: from a leaned to a vertical position as we finish that turn.
Hence, for negotiating a single curve we must apply counter-steering four times; otherwise, the bike will not roll over forth and back.

We are talking about minute inputs that are imperceptible for most riders, but still necessary.
We all do it; some know and care, some don't.
Most riders do it without thinking; but again, statistics show that not all of those riders react, steer or counter-steer properly in an emergency or at high speeds.

In my opinion, learning the basics of riding (including counter-steering, knowing it or ignoring it) is relatively easy, but knowing how to ride well has always been safer.
Basic riding will serve you well, ........... until things turn complicated (and they will, sooner or later, unfortunately) suddenly.
Ignorance and over-confidence have killed more riders than any other thing.

If still interested, read some more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

[Brian]

^Thank you my man. I need to try and put this in perspective more but I'm hoping my already natural turning response is the right way I'm doing things, it feels right. When I get my Go-Pro I'm hoping to start making some videos, I also love watching experienced riders on Youtube, teached me tons before I took the MSF and even way before I got my baby.

Originally Posted by Alex

As he is getting faster and smoother, some things really do come naturally if you have enough time to practice and learn in a gradual manner.

or.... I could always be that aggressive rider that powers his way out of everything in a rage-full manor :] and I could blame the accident on myself rather the idiot woman in the huge SUV that pulled up in front of ongoing traffic.

[Brian]

Whew.

Just went for a ride today. I can assure myself now, I was doing it right in the first place but what felt like pushing the bars downward was actually twisting or steering of the bars. I'm not pushing the bike DOWN but rather the handlebars forward. The 'push left go left push right go right' thing now makes sense.

Thanks for all the help everyone! I wish I could mark your posts as helpful but it seems like I still can't do that..

[Motofool]

[Ninjinsky]

A lot of posts so apologies if I repeat
Simply put: A bike goes the way it is leaned, not the way it is 'steered'.
Every time you take a bend you already counter steer, you do it automatically. Next ride note how you move the bars when you corner. Oh wow, it's only a little BUT it's the opposite way to what you thought you were doing.
Now on an empty stretch just push the bars slightly clock wise, then anticlockwise and observe that the effect on direction is the opposite to if you turned a car wheel that way.
That is countersteering. Above walking pace it is the only way to get round a bend.
It is about getting the bike to lean the way you want. Look at it this way:
To turn, say, left, you want the left side of the tire on the road. When you think about it there is no way that turning the bars left will do that. But a touch clockwise and down she goes, leaning to the left.
(with the tire it is similar to going on the left edge of skis to carve a left turn)

ps I spent a lot of fruitless time with my ex trying to teach her to balance a bicycle (fail) Some things, despite the complexity of our language, just remain impossible to explain with words, you just gotta let your body feel how to do it

[corksil]

I didn't read the thread but here's how I'd explain it.

turning the opposite direction increases friction on the inside of the tire, thus pulling the bike over to lean into the turn.

If you want to turn more sharply, you push on the inside bar harder to cause more friction on the inside edge of the tire therefore tightening the turn.

[JohnnyBravo]

I don't do none of that fancy crap... I close my eyes an scream Jesus take the wheel it's worked so far

[Ninjinsky]

It's so simple really:

To lean left the bottom of the bike has to move to the right from underneath you.

Just take 3 seconds to figure which way you must turn the bars to do that

[allanoue]

I think new riders all get how to start a turn, but as Alex mentioned, new riders run into problems when they need to make a sharper turn when they are already leaned over and try to mussel the bars in the direction they want. That is what you do on a bicycle and at low speeds, but that does not work at high speeds.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by jgcable

That sounds correct to me. Look where you want to go. Push down on the bar on the side you want to turn and lean to that side. In the beginning, go into turns slow on the inside and come out fast on the outside. If you go into a turn at the correct speed you will rarely if ever need to touch your brakes.

Of course.. at super low speed moves you need to counter balance too but that's when making severely sharp turns at extremely low speeds.

Pushing down on the bar doesn't help, you're pushing it forwards at the same time without realising it.

Get lower on the bike so that your elbow is in line with the bar and see if pushing it forward is easier than pushing down.

The riding position on my 675 is a bit more upright than my fast riding position (almost flat to the tank) on the 250, one of the lads pointed out to me that I was pushing down on the bars more on the 675 than I do on the 250 and it cleaned up my cornering.

[b.miller123]

Fwiw, I never heard about counter steering for a long time after I started. Hell, I didn't have anyone to teach me how to ride either. I went out and bough a bike one evening right after I turned 18 (parents wouldn't let me have one), the next morning I woke up and hopped on it, figured out where everything was and took it out for a spin around the neighborhood. I didn't need counter steering explained to me, and neither does anyone else without at least a couple hundred miles under their belt.

Keith Code's no bs bike was about disproving the "lean the bike into the turn" school of thought.

Originally Posted by jschorr

it is from the momentum overcoming the traction, your momentum is going forward and your tire is redirecting that force into a curve. when the force of the tire becomes overwhelmed or decreased it is overwhelmed by the push to go strait, same with a tire off of a bike. as the forward force decreases the camber effect will take hold.



i'm sorry man but using knowledge of the physical world to make a desired result is exactly that, doing physics.


but your probably right about me teaching her, it will end bad. i taught her to drive stick too, it still comes up.

So can you "do" gravity? Nope. But you sure can put a bucket of water on top of a door and watch your buddy get soaked.

Physics is about understanding the laws that govern the physical world around us. The laws can't be "done" or "not done" depending on how much you know about them. That why is called the "law of gravity", not the "suggestion of gravity".

[Motofool]

[Brian]

A really easy to understand excerpt I just read that comes from Proficient Motorcycling - by David L. Hough:

"We should understand countersteering to mean momentarily steering the contact patch opposite to the direction we want the bike to roll. Lets be clear that countersteering isn't a matter of whether the bars are turned left of center or right of center, or whether that takes a push or a pull, whether the bike is upright or leaned over, or whether speed is fast or slow. Whatever position of the bike or front wheel, you momentarily steer the front wheel opposite the way you want the bike to roll."

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

............you momentarily steer the front wheel.........

Note the importance of the word momentarily.

In Judo, one momentarily pulls or pushes the adversary out of balance before the throw.





Whenever we are turning, the direction of "gravity" changes from vertical to diagonal.
If we don't realign the bike with that new direction of "gravity", we fall.
We abandon the old (vertical) balanced position by momentarily throwing the bike out of balance and into the new (diagonal) stable position.

The same process happens when we need to end the turn and the direction of "gravity" changes from diagonal to vertical.
In that case, we abandon the old (diagonal) balanced position by momentarily throwing the bike out of balance and into the new (vertical) stable position.

[alex.s]

how do you countersteer while in a wheelie?

where is jason. i heard he rides the entire race in a wheelie just for fun

[Samer]

Just to summarize for any newbie: If you only get one thing out of this long thread, it is the following:

Push left to go left, push right to go right. It works and it can save you from an accident if you're in a turn and you start to panic. Being confident in what works during a possible panic is critical.

It just means push forward with your left arm on the left handle bar to go left and push forward on the right handle bar to go right. The harder you push, the quicker you will turn. If you're in a long sweeping turn, the faster you're going, the harder you will have to be pushing throughout the turn.

The "why" or the "how" is interesting to many people, but like Alex said, think of this as a nice to have. Separate from the essential skill PLGL-PRGR.

Originally Posted by corksil

I didn't read the thread but here's how I'd explain it.

turning the opposite direction increases friction on the inside of the tire, thus pulling the bike over to lean into the turn.

No. Go back and read the post from Douglas. He explains it well. If I had to summarize the physics, again this is not necessary to understand, when initiating a turn, the bike actually does go in the "wrong" direction momentarily. When this happens, due to the momentum, which resists the bike going in any direction other than straight, the bike starts to lean in the opposite direction to the steering of the bike. That's the goal. Once the bike leans in a particular direction, it will start rotating in that direction. Again, this isn't something to be thinking about while you're riding and you're a newbie and you're nervous approaching a turn. All you need is PLGL-PRGR.

Originally Posted by alex.s

how do you countersteer while in a wheelie?

where is jason. i heard he rides the entire race in a wheelie just for fun

The same way people on unicycles turn.