down shifting vs engine braking

[akima]

Originally Posted by akshay11

When do.you blip it though? Same time as your clicking the shifter down? While your letting the clutch out after having shifted? And after you blip it do you fully close the throttle? You say roll off the throttle after letting out the clutch..that means you rolled back on it while you were letting out the clutch right? Or did you leave it partially open while smoothly letting out the clutch?

Imagine the throttle as a scale from 1 (full closed - engine idling) to 10 (fully open - engine working really hard).

Shift down procedure!
Say you're in 4th gear and your throttle is at position 5.
* Quickly pull in the clutch lever as far as it will go, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 1 (fully closed), while simultaneously...
* pushing the shifter down so you drop into third gear, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 6, while simultaneously...
* letting the clutch lever out to engage the gear.

On that last step you should not quickly let clutch the lever out. If you quickly let the lever out and you didn't select a suitable throttle position for your current wheel speed then the bike will jolt. It will take some time to get used to the feel of your clutch. When you're used to your clutch you'll be able to let it out much quicker... you'll learn know at what point the clutch plates touch and also how to feel for when there is a revs/wheel-speed mismatch and that you should more gently let it out or make a quick last minute adjustment to the revs. For now, just let it out slowly... for example... take 1 whole second (or maybe 1.5 seconds) to move the clutch from fully disengaged (lever in) to fully engaged (lever out).

Shift up procedure!
Say you're in 3rd gear and your throttle is at position 5.
* Quickly pull in the clutch lever as far as it will go, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 1 (fully closed), while simultaneously...
* pushing the shifter up so you move up to forth gear, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 4, while simultaneously...
* letting the clutch lever out to engage the gear.

[akshay11]

Originally Posted by akima

Imagine the throttle as a scale from 1 (full closed - engine idling) to 10 (fully open - engine working really hard).

Shift down procedure!
Say you're in 4th gear and your throttle is at position 5.
* Quickly pull in the clutch lever as far as it will go, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 1 (fully closed), while simultaneously...
* pushing the shifter down so you drop into third gear, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 6, while simultaneously...
* letting the clutch lever out to engage the gear.

On that last step you should not quickly let clutch the lever out. If you quickly let the lever out and you didn't select a suitable throttle position for your current wheel speed then the bike will jolt. It will take some time to get used to the feel of you clutch. When you're used to your clutch you'll be able to let it out much quicker... you'll learn know at what point the clutch plates touch and also how to feel for when there is a revs/wheel-speed mismatch and that you should more gently let it out or make a quick last minute adjustment to the revs. For now, just let it out slowly... for example... take 1 whole second to move the clutch from fully disengaged (lever in) to fully engaged (lever out).

That makes much more sense. When ppl mentioned blipping I thought you open and fully close the throttle quickly.. the problem with that was the revs wouldn't stay up..and then when I let the clutch out they would shoot up and the bike would nosedive as it slowed. I'll try what you said.. probably tomorrow

[akshay11]

And after I've downshifted.. I should close the throttle to slow the bike down via engine braking right?

[akima]

Originally Posted by akshay11

That makes much more sense. When ppl mentioned blipping I thought you open and fully close the throttle quickly.. the problem with that was the revs wouldn't stay up..and then when I let the clutch out they would shoot up and the bike would nosedive as it slowed. I'll try what you said.. probably tomorrow

I edited my post a bit more.

Glad it makes sense to you!

[akshay11]

Yup. The upshifting is easy and pretty smooth. Just downshifting is a bit tough

[akima]

Originally Posted by akshay11

And after I've downshifted.. I should close the throttle to slow the bike down via engine braking right?

Nope. Typically there is no engine braking involved in the process of shifting... unless you're deliberately trying to slow the bike down using engine braking. I'd forget the engine braking thing just for the moment if I were you and just concentrate on the shifting I described above. If you did the shift procedures I described above absolutely perfectly then there would be almost no engine braking at all and you'd get this lovely feeling inside that you just made a perfect shift without so much much as jolting the bike even a tiny bit!

[akima]

Also... I don't know what your Ninja 650 is like, but I know that on the Ninja 250, 1st gear is a bit weird compared to the other gears. It feels quite jumpy. The shifting procedures I described above might feel a bit wonky with that gear.

[akshay11]

Originally Posted by akima

Nope. Typically there is no engine braking involved in the process of shifting... unless you're deliberately trying to slow the bike down using engine braking. I'd forget the engine braking thing just for the moment if I were you and just concentrate on the shifting I described above. If you did the shift procedures I described above absolutely perfectly then there would be almost no engine braking at all and you'd get this lovely feeling inside that you just made a perfect shift without so much much as jolting the bike even a tiny bit!

Haha I do get that feeling for upshifts.. but the only time I downshift atm is when I'm coming to a stop..so I figured it would be good to learn engine braking instead of always pulling in clutch and coasting to the stop while using the brakes and kicking down through the gears

[akshay11]

Yeah same with the 650

[alex.s]

question- when hard on the front brakes after dropping a few gears after a straight, my rear wheel slides about back and forth. if i turn in during this, it slides out drift-style and disrupts the suspension when it finally gets traction again. (it hooks up abruptly instead of smoothly) sitting father back on the bike helps, but it still slips. do i need a slipper clutch? how can i get it to hook up smoother? would a little rear brake extend the slip a little bit so when it starts to hook up it will be smoother? maybe i should slip the clutch more while braking?

[akima]

@alex.s question is way beyond my noobie knowledge, but I can finish answering your question @akshay11

Originally Posted by akshay11

Haha I do get that feeling for upshifts.. but the only time I downshift atm is when I'm coming to a stop..so I figured it would be good to learn engine braking instead of always pulling in clutch and coasting to the stop while using the brakes and kicking down through the gears

Down shifting with engine braking procedure!
Say you're in 4th gear and your throttle is at position 5.
* Quickly pull in the clutch lever as far as it will go, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 1 (fully closed), while simultaneously...
* pushing the shifter down so you drop into third gear, then immediately...
* move the throttle to position 4, while simultaneously...
* continuously, slowly and at the same pace letting the clutch lever out to engage the gear. As you slowly let the clutch out you will achieve engine braking.
* when the clutch lever is completely out, repeat the above steps in order to move down to a lower gear.

Disclaimer: Everything I've told you is stuff that works for me and that seems to be common techniques, but I'm still a new-rider. I'm sure a more experienced rider (eg @alex.s) will chime in if I've said anything that is incorrect or could be improved upon.

Feels nice to help out a new rider if I can!

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

question- when hard on the front brakes after dropping a few gears after a straight, my rear wheel slides about back and forth. if i turn in during this, it slides out drift-style and disrupts the suspension when it finally gets traction again. (it hooks up abruptly instead of smoothly) sitting father back on the bike helps, but it still slips. do i need a slipper clutch? how can i get it to hook up smoother? would a little rear brake extend the slip a little bit so when it starts to hook up it will be smoother? maybe i should slip the clutch more while braking?

Possibly, or try trail braking (where you go full on the front brake release most of it before the tuck in but let the brake pressure trail off, it lets you brake later and tuck in deeper (if you dare to try it, as it goes against CSS, roadcraft / the system & the MSF's training philosophies, and will probably be seen as blasphemy on here)

I am not suggesting this for novices, people with heavy hands or for a while after changing bikes

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

question- when hard on the front brakes after dropping a few gears after a straight, my rear wheel slides about back and forth. if i turn in during this, it slides out drift-style and disrupts the suspension when it finally gets traction again. (it hooks up abruptly instead of smoothly) sitting father back on the bike helps, but it still slips. do i need a slipper clutch? how can i get it to hook up smoother? would a little rear brake extend the slip a little bit so when it starts to hook up it will be smoother? maybe i should slip the clutch more while braking?

Holy cow dood! Backing it in on turn 1 are you? hahahahaha

Blip down one more time and trailbrake in. Your going to fast for the rear to maintain traction. From seeing some of your posted stuff your most likely ready. Chat with someone that has followed your or seen you ride at the track.

I spent the whole day working this skill on the street at less than speed limit speeds because my buddy on a R1 had a spent tire. Had to make the ride interesting ya know....

Different corners feel different braking while leaned over (not max lean). Elevation changes effects this too. Unless you built up the line, no trailbraking on an uphill, off camber incline (I think you already learned that one ).

[sarcasm]
Now on the flip side, if you can learn to control it, your 50% of the way to having fun in the wet.
[/sarcasm]

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Holy cow dood! Backing it in on turn 1 are you? hahahahaha

Blip down one more time and trailbrake in. Your going to fast for the rear to maintain traction. From seeing some of your posted stuff your most likely ready. Chat with someone that has followed your or seen you ride at the track.

I spent the whole day working this skill on the street at less than speed limit speeds because my buddy on a R1 had a spent tire. Had to make the ride interesting ya know....

Different corners feel different braking while leaned over (not max lean). Elevation changes effects this too. Unless you built up the line, no trailbraking on an uphill, off camber incline (I think you already learned that one ).

[sarcasm]
Now on the flip side, if you can learn to control it, your 50% of the way to having fun in the wet.
[/sarcasm]

turn 18 on my way into work actually :/ only on the 600. i think i just need a better rear shock

[csmith12]

suspension set? your weight, damp and rebound? we should start a new thread on this/that.

[alex.s]

im about to do some major suspension/arm changes to both bikes so ill start a thread when i get around to it.

[squaregamer476]

Ive been doing this lately: Pull in clutch, Downshift + Blip , let go clutch. Am i doing it right? like engine braking. Im having trouble applying the front brake while blipping so i just blip without front brake...=/...help

this is coming to a STOP btw

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by squaregamer476

Ive been doing this lately: Pull in clutch, Downshift + Blip , let go clutch. Am i doing it right? like engine braking. Im having trouble applying the front brake while blipping so i just blip without front brake...=/...help

this is coming to a STOP btw

I posted a good link for you in the other thread & quoted you so you should have a notification and link. As you practice, it don't matter if your using the front brake while blipping down. Yes, it will engine brake and there is no real problem with that aside of building a bad habit. But alas, we all have to learn systematically. Add the front brake as soon as you can.

It also don't matter if you coming to a stop of setting corner entry speed. Blipping down to 35mph for a corner is the same procedure as blipping down for a 0mph stop.