Ride apart article, why you don't need a liter bike

[FreelancerMG]

Originally Posted by wardie

My Opinion Only.. I've had everything from a Hayabusa, to a CBR 900RR to a Kawi 500 Ninja to three 250 Ninja's...and here's my thoughts on the article and my take on liter bikes.

The article made some relevant points. Liter bikes are high insurance if you're younger, they do get stolen but so does 600's..sportbikes and Harleys get stolen period.

You better know what you're doing when you get a liter bike a twist of the wrist at the wrong time can be your last time. I think there are two parallels between 250's and liter bikes both at opposite ends though but could yield same results. You must be careful when at highway speed when trying to pass cars on a 250. The reason being your acceleration isn't as great and it takes longer to safely pass. Most often you must set up the pass to ensure clear distance. I've often said riding a 250 Ninja teaches you how to control a bike properly and all things that go with it. Failure to pass cleanly could result in a crash. Now the liter bike is similar in the crash part. A twist of the wrist can warp time and if you're not experienced and ready the results could be fatal.
Because you can warp time your closing rate (approaching objects going slower than you) is what gets more people in trouble than anything else IMO. Only time in the saddle at high speed helps you be able to judge closing rate. So as with the Ninja 250 you could end up in trouble but for different reasons each pertaining to that particular bike.

A 600 is lighter , accelerates just a quicker to warp speed and will do the same amount of damage and is probably 2-3000 less expensive.

IMO neither bike should be sold to any first year rider or returning rider without verifiable ability to pilot the bike reasonably well...we should have licensing like Europe..you gradually work up to a big bike. I've seen way too many makeshift crosses over the past two years where some young guy killed himself because of lack of seat time and/or training. It's a shame and again IMO a crime to let inexperienced people buy 100+ horsepower bikes. I'm 64, a veteran of Road racing, LD Iron Butt stuff and take schools when I can like Cali Superbike etc. I get around a lot of motorcycling , events and general chit chat stuff.

In closing I like liter bikes because I can bend time and distance when I need to. But because of it's ability to do that I have heightened awareness of what things I can control always looking for an "out" if need be. I like the power when I need it. I like being able to ride two up and not worry about not having enough horses.
I have done several trips and like both, but in the end my little Ninja is just fine because I can enjoy the ride a lot more I'm never really on the edge with my 250.

Most owners of liter bikes aren't going out for more than an hour. They're just ergonomically not comfortable.

the 250 or 300 are great all arounders for just about everything you would want to do sanely. Wardie

Very nice post all around Wardie and I agree with almost everything except for one small part. I don't believe we should go to a tiered licensing system like what they have in most of the world. I don't believe it should be the government's or anyone else responsibility to be trying to save people from themselves. This is another aspect of basic freedoms that come with the whole freedom thing we harp about in this country. It's the other edge on the double edged sword that needs to remain in place in order to keep the foundation of freedom and other principles that we cherish.

It's the basic freedom to fail and fall by your own hand and doing. Although in some cases such as this can lead to the ultimate failure of death, nobody else should be there to get in way of someone else's right to fail. Many of the greatest successes of this country have been founded and rooted in failure as well as some of the greatest self revelations. If they survive the ordeal they'll be much wiser and better for it than if someone held their hand the whole way throughout the process. Everyone has the right to failure as well as success. We give all of the tools for someone to succeed at motorcycle operation and it's the rider's choice if they want to use all of the tools and succeed or ignore good intentioned tools and meet with a much greater chance at failure. While more people are lost to their own foolishness this way, I believe in the long term this makes us a much stronger nation. I also believe this constant hand holding by good intentioned legislation, has generated progressively softer and mentally duller generations.

[wardie]

FreelanceMG,

I respect and appreciate your thoughts but respectfully don't agree.

I would be one of the guys who would say the less our government is involved the better we all would be. But I am also the guy who realizes that you just have to do some things that you may find distasteful for the better good for all of us. I advocate wearing helmets and getting training and continue that training , maybe every two years of going to refresher school like MSF or track schools if your so inclined.

At my age I've had my share of friends whose sons and grandsons have met untimely deaths due to making mistakes from being young and not understanding whats beneath you. You only get wisdom through miles, schools/training and sometimes pulling through msitakes. On a liter it's not easy to pull through a mistake especially if it's on the big end.

Actually I'm advocating the motorcycle manufacturers do some policing of there own. I sold my CBR 900 RR to a young kid. I took the time to speak to him about the bike, the speeds it will attain and what his riding exoperiences have been. Addiitonally I spoke directly to the father and told him how powerful the bike was. That he has a shared responsibility with his son in this purchase. I was assured proper continued training would be in order. The last thing I told the Dad was that this bike unlike others he may have had ..will Kill him if not treated properly. Please don't let me read about your son in the paper.

I also think as senior riders we have a responsibility to mentor these younger generation whether they like it or not. Sometimes you get through, sometimes you don't. But all you can do is try... I think that's more than any dealer selling a bike does. I've spoken to dealers and they say to a person it's not my responsibilty to determine what their skills are if they have credit we'll sell them the bike then ity's up to them. Sad but true..

FreelancMG I think w share the same concerns for our governments involvement in our lives but there ought to be some way to educate and protect when necessary beginning riders. Thanks again for sharing. Wardie

[ninjunk]

Originally Posted by wardie

My Opinion Only..
....

100% in agreement.

that said, if you are calling a '88 k100 a 'liter bike' that's like horses and zebras.

[wardie]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

100% in agreement.

that said, if you are calling a '88 k100 a 'liter bike' that's like horses and zebras.

The S1000R that's BMW's liter bike

Goldwing a liter bike but not a liter sportbike

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

horses and zebras

[ninjunk]

hmm does that mean i copy that 'achievement unlocked' and add to my signature like you have?


I'm all for tiered licensing. Same reason we have tiered licensing for commercial trucks over 30K lbs. (not so the gov't can put it hands in the pockets of commercial drivers, )

Some states have a form of that allowing mopeds to ride with no license at all or simply a car license. Its nice, it encourages people to ride bikes and makes it much cheaper to own them. I don't see any reason you couldn't get a 250cc license that would allow you to ride all kinds of totally practical bikes for cheaps. The bikes are already built to fall nicely into tiers because they mostly are built for the euro market

[antiant]

The problem is there are also many "motorcyclists" that don't even have their M1/2 endorsement and still ride. An idiot is going to ride, whether there is a law in place or not, tiered or not. As the saying goes, you can only lead a horse to water and sometimes you can't even do that. Whether or not they follow or drink, will ultimately be up to them.

[cadd]

Like a retard, my first bike was a mid 90s 900cc Fireblade. I'm glad I didn't kill myself. Aside from constantly overheating in Brooklyn traffic, I learned very early that throttle control is key. And this is only 900cc. I can't imagine what a 2015 liter bike would be like. Complete monster I bet.

I agree with another poster that said liter bike riders probably work harder than we do. It does take a lot of skill to have smooth throttle control. You're constantly aware of how much and how fast you're applying throttle. Too much and the front end gets light really fast.

Did I enjoy the power as a teenager? Hell yeah! Do I want one now? Hell no! I rather go full throttle and plan my passing. It's a skill we all need to have on a little bike. Yet, it's a skill that most riders usually need, but don't have. It's about teaching you how to scan and read traffic patterns. How to anticipate other actions of vehicles on the road. You'll never learn that as fast on a liter bike....simply because you're not forced to. 4k rpm? Need to make a pass? Just twist the throttle and you'll accelerate so damn fast without having to downshift.

On the 300, I have to monitor the RPMs constantly to see if a downshift is beneficial....or if it'll send me to redline half way through my pass. I find enjoyment with working with a inferior machine, while still being capable of navigating through shared roadways with ease.

Just my $0.02.

But I will never look down on anyone on a liter bike, or any bike for that matter. We choose what we ride for a reason. As long as you're on two wheels, your ok in my books.

[Suki2003]

Yes, it is probably dangerous to sell these fast bikes to new riders, however, in America we do claim to be a free country, do we not?
Therefore, despite the potential dangers to the riders let them buy and ride them. All we should do is attempt to educate people on the dangers, not limit their choices.

such as this article's point was.

[FreelancerMG]

Originally Posted by wardie

FreelanceMG,

I respect and appreciate your thoughts but respectfully don't agree.

I would be one of the guys who would say the less our government is involved the better we all would be. But I am also the guy who realizes that you just have to do some things that you may find distasteful for the better good for all of us. I advocate wearing helmets and getting training and continue that training , maybe every two years of going to refresher school like MSF or track schools if your so inclined.

At my age I've had my share of friends whose sons and grandsons have met untimely deaths due to making mistakes from being young and not understanding whats beneath you. You only get wisdom through miles, schools/training and sometimes pulling through msitakes. On a liter it's not easy to pull through a mistake especially if it's on the big end.

Actually I'm advocating the motorcycle manufacturers do some policing of there own. I sold my CBR 900 RR to a young kid. I took the time to speak to him about the bike, the speeds it will attain and what his riding exoperiences have been. Addiitonally I spoke directly to the father and told him how powerful the bike was. That he has a shared responsibility with his son in this purchase. I was assured proper continued training would be in order. The last thing I told the Dad was that this bike unlike others he may have had ..will Kill him if not treated properly. Please don't let me read about your son in the paper.

I also think as senior riders we have a responsibility to mentor these younger generation whether they like it or not. Sometimes you get through, sometimes you don't. But all you can do is try... I think that's more than any dealer selling a bike does. I've spoken to dealers and they say to a person it's not my responsibilty to determine what their skills are if they have credit we'll sell them the bike then ity's up to them. Sad but true..

FreelancMG I think w share the same concerns for our governments involvement in our lives but there ought to be some way to educate and protect when necessary beginning riders. Thanks again for sharing. Wardie

That's how we got into this whole mess in the first place. The moment you make concessions using the excuse "for the good of the people," or "think of the children!" you make the precedent for them to do the same with everything else as the Government already has. There's a very clear and distinct difference between advocating and informing vs mandatory compulsion. I'm all for advocating increased training and sensibility, I'm not for making it compulsory though. How someone else lives their lives shouldn't be any of our or the government's business. Our grandparents and those before them didn't need some autocratic legislation to do the right thing. Strong willed kids are going to do what they damn well please and the government and parents are probably not going to stop anything. It will instead affect those who already generally do follow the rules and now have to jump through a bunch of extra hoops, a lot of extra time going through the DMV process of licensing each successive tier and spending extra money that they didn't have to spend.

I'm not about restricting everyone for the few. People who are prone to abusing the power of a bigger bike are still going to do it and fall victim to it. All making tiered licensing compulsory would do is just increase the amount of unlicensed young riders. We'd have an expensive program that forces the non-problematic people to jump through a lot of hoops for pretty much nothing. Kids hopped up on hormones that are destined to kill themselves from stupidity are going to do it regardless.

[Ghostt]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Ghostt]

If a squid wants to wreck, or whatever injuries, I'm cool with that, what I'm not cool with is sometimes they take others with them.

Squids will ALWAYS be squids, and they help keep us in a plentiful supply of used parts.

[wardie]

I can't remember who started this post but it has grabbed the attention and garnered great comments from all. That's why this is a great forum

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by wardie

I can't remember who started this post but it has grabbed the attention and garnered great comments from all. That's why this is a great forum

Well said sir

[liberpolly]

I think engine volume limitations are silly, for example my 900 Triumph is as docile as a donkey.

But government already requires passing test to get a motorcycle license. It won't be any more intrusion on freedom to require to pass another test for 100HP motorcycle, and a separate test for 200HP motorcycle, or somesuch. It is not just for the riders' own good, it is also for other people who share public roads with us. As they say, your liberty ends where another person's liberty begins.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

I think engine volume limitations are silly, for example my 900 Triumph is as docile as a donkey.

But government already requires passing test to get a motorcycle license. It won't be any more intrusion on freedom to require to pass another test for 100HP motorcycle, and a separate test for 200HP motorcycle, or somesuch. It is not just for the riders' own good, it is also for other people who share public roads with us. As they say, your liberty ends where another person's liberty begins.

While I can understand your idea, I'm also filled with questions, how would you test for such things? Written exam? Road test? Etc.... State by state? Or federal license like a CDL?,

[liberpolly]

Written exams are useless IMHO. I'd go for zero infractions, minimum mileage on a smaller bike, and proficiency test. The thing is, riding schools today, beyond basic, are rare and underutilized; if tests are required, they'd pop up everywhere.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

I think engine volume limitations are silly, for example my 900 Triumph is as docile as a donkey.

.

Obviously you've never had a donkey! They can be a handful.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Obviously you've never had a donkey! They can be a handful.

In Tijuana

[FreelancerMG]

Originally Posted by liberpolly

I think engine volume limitations are silly, for example my 900 Triumph is as docile as a donkey.

But government already requires passing test to get a motorcycle license. It won't be any more intrusion on freedom to require to pass another test for 100HP motorcycle, and a separate test for 200HP motorcycle, or somesuch. It is not just for the riders' own good, it is also for other people who share public roads with us. As they say, your liberty ends where another person's liberty begins.

Except it's rarely the rider's fault when they have a multi-vehicle collision when sober and riders that are overwhelmed and screw up tend to have their own personal single vehicular event. Versus a car driver that's driving in over their head who tend to have multi-vehicle collisions and usually injure and kill other people beyond just themselves.

Motorcyclists rarely if ever take out other people with them when they crash unless they have a passenger. I'm not too worried about some idiot kid on a liter bike as I am some punk kid in that Suburban driving and texting.

Also an initial license is enough of an ass pain in paperwork and red tape. Tiered licensing would just add another burden to our under-funded DMV system, an unjustifiable burden to the licensee in both time and money that isn't there for the other motorists. Automobile drivers by far kill OTHER people far more than a motorcyclist does. It's incredibly rare for a motorcyclist to kill a non-passenger in a collision but automobiles do it all the time to the tune of a person every 30 minutes. But we're going to penalize motorcyclists with extra process, pointing the finger at the kid on the R1 while the kid in the SUV murders a family or that semi-truck driver runs over a dozen motorcyclists. Again, saying that it's "for the good of the people" is a very slippery slope to go down on as it sets a precedent for other limitations and processes ala the Patriot act. I know some people want a tiered system for vanity purposes. They want to hold the highest tier license to lord it over those with a lower license or as a top tiered club member. They merely want some official stratification that makes themselves look more important so that they can say that they're top tier.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

i don't want one, but YOU should definitely get one!

Originally Posted by wardie

I also think as senior riders we have a responsibility to mentor these younger generation whether they like it or not.

This is the way to prepare the younger generation, and idiots alike... Not through regulation. As soon as people stop taking care of themselves the government will be all too happy to take up that responsibility an tell us exactly how we should live... So, hear Mr. Rogers - care about your neighbor, or that kid, or that new rider. Sacrifice some of your own time, if you have to, to get them situated...

Originally Posted by cadd

On the 300, I have to monitor the RPMs constantly to see if a downshift is beneficial....or if it'll send me to redline half way through my pass.

Never wonder about downshifting, just do... Sorry, I found your comment spot on to what I've experienced myself, and thought I'd be funny. You're 100% right though...

Originally Posted by Suki2003

Therefore, despite the potential dangers to the riders let them buy and ride them. All we should do is attempt to educate people on the dangers, not limit their choices.

I completely agree! If anything should be limited, it should be the pussification of America... The harsh reality is we all die and very few people can seem to agree on what the purpose of life is, except that death should be feared. This fear is what perpetuates us under the excuse of "quality of life" in turn disrespecting our place as an organism of this earth, so, let Darwin reign. Literbikes are one of the few "legal" ways in which Darwin still can work. Let them....

Back on the topic though:
Literbikes are badass, and with great power comes great responsibility. Personally I don't find them enjoyable on the public roads at all as the ride becomes an exercise of dodging the law instead of enjoying the experience. On the track, wickedly fun!

I do think the POINT of the article though is to try and balance the scales of small-bike disrespect. There are many, just as subjective reasons for small bikes being "the stupid decision". The point is, us, as a collective small bike loving subculture need to continue helping those around us who don't understand, accept small bikes.

[Soujyu]

As someone who owns a literbike, I agree with a lot of the discussion here.

The one thing I might add is that proper electronic aids on a bike, especially with a literbike, is important. It does not replace proper training and experience (don't ride a literbike as your first bike, and electronic aids won't protect you from gross stupidity and inexperience), but they do help in keeping the bike manageable for daily riding. Since I'm not interested in acting like a hooligan on the streets (wheelies and whatnot), I keep the electronic aids on and set at a level that I'm comfortable with to limit what I could potentially do on the bike.