Turning

[Mbomb]

After reading many posts and books I am still unclear with counter steering. To turn left you should push the right bar. Are you supposed to push down toward the ground or forward as in the direction you are traveling?

[alex.s]

pushing down toward the ground does nothing. you are rotating the bars in the opposite direction you want to turn, this pulls the front of the bike the direction you turn the bars (away from the turn) which pushes the top of the bike away from the direction you turn the bars (you turn the bars away from the turn, so the top of the bike 'falls' into the turn) then when the bike is leaned, it follows that path


note though- light smooth pressure is best

[csmith12]

To turn left, push left bar. (yes.... that will turn the wheel to the right, hence the "counter" part of countersteering)

and push forward, not down, not diagonal, simply forward.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Mbomb

......Are you supposed to push down toward the ground or forward as in the direction you are traveling?

For minimum effort and max results push and pull the handle bars in a direction as perpendicular to the steering column has possible,..........and take a look at this:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100922

[EthioKnight]

If you're unclear and perhaps too scared or cautious to try countersteering on the ninjette...take a bicycle for a ride and practice countersteering...same principle. good luck.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Motofool

For minimum effort and max results push and pull the handle bars in a direction as perpendicular to the steering column has possible

There is something wrong (mechanically or technique) if you can't do it with one finger. There are times when you may want to two hand it (high speed swerves and such) but for really learning how, stick with one hand. You will thank yourself later.

[csmith12]

^^ ^ Adding to my above post.

When your riding in the "textbook" body position, head down with arm extended across/resting on the tank, it is much more difficult to use the outside hand to push or pull the bar for accurate steering inputs. You just loose so much leverage.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

^^ ^ Adding to my above post.

When your riding in the "textbook" body position, head down with arm extended across/resting on the tank, it is much more difficult to use the outside hand to push or pull the bar for accurate steering inputs. You just loose so much leverage.

just use your feet

[csmith12]

Sure, you can weight pegs and all but didn't want to muddy up the waters any more than needed for the sake of the OP's question.

[csmith12]

lol alex, maybe you was just joking too, hard to tell.... hahahaha

[dcx4610]

You can't take a corner above around 15mph without counter steering. It's a very subtle thing and your body just naturally does it on a 2-wheeled vehicle. Don't think too much about it.

The only time the theory actually comes in handy is if you have to swerve something. That's when you need to train your brain to push in the direction you want to go but even then it's still a pretty natural feeling.

[ARc]

Do it over 15 mph. I thought my MSF instructor was on crack, until I did it at 20 mph.

[userjh160]

What helped me figure it out was that I was able to drive (when no traffic was around) and practiced going from side to side down a small strip of road, you will become familiar with your bike and how countersteering works.

[JeffM]

This video is one of the best in explaining how countersteering works and looks (Plus it gets bonus points for using a Ninja 250)

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

K. Code would not 100% agree with everything in that video. While it's a great aid for describing countersteering. There is debate if the bike will hold its lean without ANY steering input. K. Code believes it will hold its line even if hands are removed from the bars.

Anyway..... What is missing from most of this discussion and taken for granted in the above video is, "When to countersteer, how hard to countersteer and how long do I countersteer".

When - That is the easy part, as soon as you want to turn.
How Hard - How fast do you need to get your bike leaned over.
How Long - You will need to continue to push the bar as long as it takes to set the appropriate lean you need to negotiate the turn and to adjust path throughout a curve. In general, 1-2 seconds is an eternity in the context of countersteering and a little bit of countersteering goes a long way.

It will be different for every rider and road/track. And like many skills with enough practice, will be something taken for granted.

[Yakaru]

Believe it or not you'll find yourself doing it without thinking the first time you take the bike to speed; you just might not realize it is what you're doing if you didn't know about counter steering (a lot of people think "I'm leaning over" when they're actually counter steering to cause the lean).

Seriously the 'basics' of the technique are best experienced, and you can discuss/understand it better once you've done it.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Believe it or not you'll find yourself doing it without thinking the first time you take the bike to speed; you just might not realize it is what you're doing if you didn't know about counter steering (a lot of people think "I'm leaning over" when they're actually counter steering to cause the lean).

Seriously the 'basics' of the technique are best experienced, and you can discuss/understand it better once you've done it.

True^^^^^

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by csmith12

K. Code would not 100% agree with everything in that video. While it's a great aid for describing countersteering. There is debate if the bike will hold its lean without ANY steering input. K. Code believes it will hold its line even if hands are removed from the bars.

I do not want to derail this thread but feel I need to add to your statement.

I'm pretty sure that Keith Code is correct and I suppose that railing through a corner without your hands on the bars is possible. You would have to have a throttle lock to do it.

However bumps in the road, mismanaged throttle inputs, or a squirrel running in front of you in mind corner might necessitate a nudge on the bar to tighten your line through a corner.

Mr. Code paraphrased: Once a turn is initiated by countersteering the bike should hold the arc through a turn as it is stable while leaned over under throttle.

Sorry if I muddied the waters on a simple discussion.

Jeff

[userjh160]

I thought the video showed someone who doesn't understand the physics of countersteering and hopefully understand it a bit more. I have been able to enjoy my rides alot more since I have learned how to do it properly. I have had gusty days and continued with countersteering with confidence again!!! Anyone that has not practiced this or thinking they don't need to (like I did) is really putting themselves in danger as well as other riders. I could have easily caused a 2 car accident when I was blown off the road by a strong gust of wind. My 2 cents, practice, practice, practice till you feel comfortable with yourself and your bike.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by userjh160

I thought the video showed someone who doesn't understand the physics of countersteering and hopefully understand it a bit more. I have been able to enjoy my rides alot more since I have learned how to do it properly. I have had gusty days and continued with countersteering with confidence again!!! Anyone that has not practiced this or thinking they don't need to (like I did) is really putting themselves in danger as well as other riders. I could have easily caused a 2 car accident when I was blown off the road by a strong gust of wind. My 2 cents, practice, practice, practice till you feel comfortable with yourself and your bike.

thumbs up to this, I recommend getting the 'Twist of the Wrist" DVD as well, it really helps. But I maintain that the usefulness of technique videos/suggestions/etc. is VASTLY diminished until you've done it yourself at least once. I watched a BOATLOAD of videos on this, got some hints out of it, rode for the first time, and now rewatching them is a whole new experience.

[userjh160]

Thanks Yakaru, I will check out that DVD, I can use all the help I can get

[ZackoFF96]

i dont even know what counter steering is .. as long as i can turn im fine

well maybe i will read some about it

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by ZackoFF96

.......well maybe i will read some about it

You could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ai4px]

If I can add to the discussion here without adding any confusion....

We all realize that mass in motion wants to stay in motion, and mass that is stationary wants to stay in place. Now let's ignore the fact that you are traveling at say 60mph. Let's just look only at the left/right component. You are stationary left to right. If you want to turn, you must initiate a lean. Since all of the mass of the bike is above the point of contact on the ground, that is the place you've got to begin the lean. Now if you lean your body in the direction you want to turn, it's going to take a while for the bike to start to lean over... you have to overcome the gyro effects of the wheels and your mass that is up high has to start moving - and that takes time.

But what if you could drive the wheels out from under the bike (left/right)? That would start your lean very quickly. Your mass would stay stationary (left to right) and the bottom of the bike moves out from under you. Now you are in a lean and the bike will naturally turn. When you are finished with the turn, you simply steer the bottom of the bike back under you.

This works at any lean angle. If you want to lean more, you steer the wheels out away from you. If you want to lean less drive the wheels under you. Once you have established a lean angle that is correct for your the radius of you turn, you let the steering go neutral and enter a state of equilibrium. You maintain this neutral steering until you exit the curve and need to stand up straight. At that point, "drive" (steer) the wheels back under you.

At slow speeds (like a u turn in a parking lot) and you are in a lean turning and let's say you feel like the bike is about to fall over... you have 3 choices. 1)let it fall, 2)goose the throttle, 3) steer into the center of the turn. You certainly don't want to drop the bike, so 2 and 3 are your options. If you goose the throttle, the bike could stumble or be out of it's torque range. In other words goosing the throttle may not work. #3 will always work... steer the wheels under you by turning sharper.. turning into the direction you are falling and the bike will right itself.

You can practice the idea of steering the bike under you at mid speeds... 2nd gear at 15-20 in a big open parking lot. It's really easy to steer the bottom of the bike around a slalom and your body will stay straight in line. They called this dipping at the MSF class.