ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > General > Riding Skills

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 27th, 2016, 07:41 AM   #1
adouglas
Cat herder
 
adouglas's Avatar
 
Name: Gort
Location: A secret lair which, being secret, has an undisclosed location
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): Aprilia RS660

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 6
MOTM - Jul '18, Nov '16, Aug '14, May '13
Braking tip: squeeze, then SQUEEZE

@ZeroGravity360 @lizardywizard

Over in the "250 not fast enough?" thread I posted about braking hard.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...7&postcount=88

Rather than derail that conversation even further, I thought I'd pass along a little tip for you. This comes from the friendly folks who run the track days I go to.

You can brake INCREDIBLY hard on a motorcycle. Much harder than you believe possible. You can literally lift the rear of the bike clear off the ground, using just two fingers (i.e., a stoppie). It's a lot harder on a Ninjette with its single disc, but on a supersport it's easy.

Now, stoppies are not part of your regular riding skillset, nor should they be. But hard braking definitely should be.

The key is to not lose the front end. You've got a small contact patch supporting all those forces, and once it gives up the bike is going to lowside and you'll thank your lucky stars that you're ATGATT.

To keep that from happening give yourself as much traction as you can.

And yes, you can INCREASE the tire's available traction. Here's how: first you load the front by squeezing gently (I don't mean light as a feather... I simply mean enough to start braking; the point here is that you do NOT grab the whole freakin' thing RIGHT NOW!!!).

What that does is compress the front tire, making it "squish." The contact patch spreads out and grows, giving you more traction. Then you can squeeze REALLY hard.

It's a relatively fast thing, but it's definitely a "squeeze, then SQUEEZE" not a "squeezeSQUEEZE."

If you apply the brakes too hard, too fast, you overwhelm the tire before it has a chance to squish. By loading it gently first, you get more traction and THEN you can brake harder.

Great video about this. Pertinent stuff starts at 2:00. At 3:00 you'll see a graphic demonstration of what happens when you suddenly load a tire, vs. loading gently before you lean on it.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Two other things:

1) When you brake hard your instinct will be to stiffen your arms to keep you from sliding forward. Think about what that does... it makes controlling the bike almost impossible, because your arms are locked. The correct technique is to squeeze the tank with your knees and keep your arms as loose as possible. This is what Stomp Grips are for.

2) Your tire only has so much traction. That traction must deal with three kinds of forces: acceleration, cornering and braking. Think of it as if you have 100 points of traction. Note that this is not an absolute measure... using the technique above you'll get more traction to begin with -- the "traction pie" gets bigger -- but for our purposes it's still "100 points."

If you're using all 100 points in braking and you lean over even a bit (i.e. add cornering force) then you will exceed the traction limits of the tire and it will skid. The reverse is also true. If you're cornering at the limit and using all 100 points for that, then touch the brake and you tuck the front. When you see a MotoGP rider lowside for no apparent reason, that's what has happened.

This allocation of traction among cornering forces is why the MSF teaches you to stand the bike up BEFORE you emergency brake. They know that new riders are far more likely to panic and grab all the brake they can, so they want to keep you safe by giving you as much traction for braking as possible by reducing cornering load.

More advanced riders are able to balance braking and turning forces better... which is what trail braking is all about.

For new riders, though, walk before you run. Trail braking is an advanced technique.

As a new rider, you may wonder how you know when you're reaching the limit. Short answer is that at the speeds you're traveling and the forces you're dealing with, you're nowhere near the limit in dry conditions unless you do something REALLY stupid, so don't worry about it. In the wet, be more gentle and smooth in all you do.

__________________________________________________
I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.
Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem.

Last futzed with by adouglas; May 27th, 2016 at 09:19 AM.
adouglas is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


Old May 27th, 2016, 07:45 AM   #2
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
WOW!! YES! thank you for this! I defiantly need to research this. I am the type of person who wants to learn even if i think I know the answer. Maybe its my anthropology major in college that makes me want to learn different ways of doing things.
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:01 AM   #3
adouglas
Cat herder
 
adouglas's Avatar
 
Name: Gort
Location: A secret lair which, being secret, has an undisclosed location
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): Aprilia RS660

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 6
MOTM - Jul '18, Nov '16, Aug '14, May '13
Since you're about to take the MSF, remember one thing:

That course is designed to teach you lowest-common-denominator techniques that will keep you safe when all your cognitive abilities go out the window. Which they will in an emergency, and far more readily if you're inexperienced. It's only natural. You've already shared your experiences of getting a bit flustered in traffic. Think about what that's doing to your cognition. It'll all pass with more seat time.

That does NOT mean the techniques you learn in the basic course are the only way to do things.

For example, they teach you NOT to cover the brake when you ride. This is because an inexperienced rider, in a panic, will grab that front brake without thinking about subtle things like how much pressure they're applying. More experienced riders routinely cover the front brake because it reduces your reaction time.

Check my right hand... I'm not slowing down here, I'm accelerating out of a turn.



Same deal with the emergency braking in a turn thing. They make it seem as if you will crash if you touch the brake while cornering. They're right... if you brake too hard, which a newbie is likely to do. But you CAN brake while turning once you have more experience.

So for now, listen, learn, do what they say, and stick with the program because it's valuable stuff. Get experience, then build your skills. More advanced training will teach you those more advanced techniques... the basic MSF is not the time or the place.

Note: I've been riding for 29 years. It wasn't until I hit the track two or three years ago that I really started trail braking and understanding how to balance those forces properly. Point is that you can become a safe, successful rider and have a great time following the basic MSF guidelines.
__________________________________________________
I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.
Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem.
adouglas is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 08:09 AM   #4
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
As a MSF coach, if I catch you covering the brake, you will get called on it. Normally very LOUDLY too. The brake and swerve drill is my absolute favorite drill on the range but hopefully they still have the braking in a corner drill in your state.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:12 AM   #5
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
Am I one of the few that uses the rear brake to trail brake also, depending on the situation? So many people and racers I know don't ever bother to use the rear brake.

The only time I touch the front brake lever is just before I need to use it.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:17 AM   #6
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
Am I one of the few that uses the rear brake
I watch for coverage there too. I need to see you move your hands and feet during the drills. We look for input on all 4 controls.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:19 AM   #7
DEFY
ᗧᗣᗣᗣᗣ
 
DEFY's Avatar
 
Name: Nick
Location: NY
Join Date: Nov 2013

Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R and 2014 Triumph 675R

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
As a MSF coach, if I catch you covering the brake, you will get called on it. Normally very LOUDLY too.
I got the same treatment when I took my MSF. I use to do the same with covering them with two fingers.
__________________________________________________


Spoiler for topic:
It might just be the [you] tag
DEFY is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:19 AM   #8
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Since you're about to take the MSF, remember one thing:

That course is designed to teach you lowest-common-denominator techniques that will keep you safe when all your cognitive abilities go out the window. Which they will in an emergency, and far more readily if you're inexperienced. It's only natural. You've already shared your experiences of getting a bit flustered in traffic. Think about what that's doing to your cognition. It'll all pass with more seat time.

That does NOT mean the techniques you learn in the basic course are the only way to do things.

For example, they teach you NOT to cover the brake when you ride. This is because an inexperienced rider, in a panic, will grab that front brake without thinking about subtle things like how much pressure they're applying. More experienced riders routinely cover the front brake because it reduces your reaction time.

Check my right hand... I'm not slowing down here, I'm accelerating out of a turn.



Same deal with the emergency braking in a turn thing. They make it seem as if you will crash if you touch the brake while cornering. They're right... if you brake too hard, which a newbie is likely to do. But you CAN brake while turning once you have more experience.

So for now, listen, learn, do what they say, and stick with the program because it's valuable stuff. Get experience, then build your skills. More advanced training will teach you those more advanced techniques... the basic MSF is not the time or the place.

Note: I've been riding for 29 years. It wasn't until I hit the track two or three years ago that I really started trail braking and understanding how to balance those forces properly. Point is that you can become a safe, successful rider and have a great time following the basic MSF guidelines.
It is funny you say that, After I take my MSF course I was planning on taking the MSF course taught to police who ride bikes, The closet one to me is over 100 miles away but I think it is worth it. If for some reason I cannot take that one there are a few other "advanced" courses MSF offers, I plan on taking anything I can because my goal is to become a better rider, not just take MSF and understand the basics.

Last futzed with by ZeroGravity360; May 27th, 2016 at 10:27 AM.
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:37 AM   #9
NevadaWolf
Certified looney toon
 
NevadaWolf's Avatar
 
Name: Teri
Location: 3952'40.7"N 11823'53.8"W (Northern NV)
Join Date: Jun 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250, 102k+ miles -- 2014 CB500X, 42k+ miles

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 16
MOTM Jul '13, Jul '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
As a MSF coach, if I catch you covering the brake, you will get called on it. Normally very LOUDLY too.
My RiderCoach whapped my hand as I went by her because I hand my fingers over the brake. She's like "I know you've got experience, but your in my class right now."

I like Toni.


BTW - @adouglas, totally digging the picture cause you are in the rain! Love it!
__________________________________________________
<-- Linky
Hey Unregistered! The code [you] shows the username currently logged in.
IBA # 56020 AMA # 521481 Fun Rides! ][ My Videos ][ My Gear
Hold yourself to the same rules you expect others to follow.
NevadaWolf is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:40 AM   #10
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by NevadaWolf View Post
My RiderCoach whapped my hand as I went by her because I hand my fingers over the brake. She's like "I know you've got experience, but your in my class right now."
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 08:43 AM   #11
NevadaWolf
Certified looney toon
 
NevadaWolf's Avatar
 
Name: Teri
Location: 3952'40.7"N 11823'53.8"W (Northern NV)
Join Date: Jun 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250, 102k+ miles -- 2014 CB500X, 42k+ miles

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 16
MOTM Jul '13, Jul '14
Yep. that was basically it. LOL
__________________________________________________
<-- Linky
Hey Unregistered! The code [you] shows the username currently logged in.
IBA # 56020 AMA # 521481 Fun Rides! ][ My Videos ][ My Gear
Hold yourself to the same rules you expect others to follow.
NevadaWolf is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 09:16 AM   #12
adouglas
Cat herder
 
adouglas's Avatar
 
Name: Gort
Location: A secret lair which, being secret, has an undisclosed location
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): Aprilia RS660

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 6
MOTM - Jul '18, Nov '16, Aug '14, May '13
I was away from riding for a few years in the early 2000s and when I decided to jump back in I re-took the MSF course as a refresher.

Covering the brake was the thing that I kept doing "wrong."

Second time around was fun, actually. It all depends on your mindset. I was already a licensed rider with years of experience, but no recent experience.

Frankly I think the vast majority of drivers would benefit greatly from going back to Drivers' Ed.
__________________________________________________
I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.
Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem.
adouglas is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 10:34 AM   #13
lizardywizard
green stig
 
lizardywizard's Avatar
 
Name: V
Location: California
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): '15 Ninja 300 ABS (Hurricane)

Posts: 140
Blog Entries: 2
MOTM - May '16
Thanks for the mention!

I've been reading Proficient Motorcycling and Total Control and they say similar things, yep. About the contact patch anyway. Definitely gonna watch that video.

About a lot of people not using their rear brake - I actually didn't either until I took the course with Dom Schreiber. He showed me how to use it for low speed control and now I use it all the time in that situation, it helps a lot.

I'm actually going back to him for more training in a couple of weeks. He's an awesome guy. Costly but totally worth it.

Also, that picture of you cornering in the rain is hella impressive. Who even took that? They're an amazing photographer.
lizardywizard is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 10:36 AM   #14
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizardywizard View Post
Thanks for the mention!

I've been reading Proficient Motorcycling and Total Control and they say similar things, yep. About the contact patch anyway. Definitely gonna watch that video.

About a lot of people not using their rear brake - I actually didn't either until I took the course with Dom Schreiber. He showed me how to use it for low speed control and now I use it all the time in that situation, it helps a lot.

I'm actually going back to him for more training in a couple of weeks. He's an awesome guy. Costly but totally worth it.

Also, that picture of you cornering in the rain is hella impressive. Who even took that? They're an amazing photographer.
I use my rear brake first, if i have enough time to stop its the only one i use lol
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 11:00 AM   #15
SLOWn60
n00bie to wannabie
 
SLOWn60's Avatar
 
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
Join Date: Sep 2015

Motorcycle(s): 2012 250R (Red), 2005 VFR800A (Red), CRF450X (Red), 2012 F800GS (Wants to be Red!)

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '15
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
Am I one of the few that uses the rear brake to trail brake also, depending on the situation? So many people and racers I know don't ever bother to use the rear brake.

The only time I touch the front brake lever is just before I need to use it.
Not to trail brake but I do use it to initially load the suspension particularly the front to begin to load the front tire for braking.

On the street; seldom is my front braking anywhere near 100% application pressure. On the track; I'm near 100% so the rear has little to do except for initial loading.

In the wet: things are pretty well the same except proportionally; the rear can provide a little more braking as it's not unloaded as much as in the dry.

As most readers are in the new or less than 5 year/50,000 mile category; the most important knowledge you need to absorb and apply subconsciously particularly in those moments of extreme stress or absentmindedness is to practice, practice, practice stopping to front wheel lockup & release.
It becomes instinctual and you will subconsciously feel when to release and reapply, release etc so even in the wet or Sandy surface, leaned over or whatever: you maintain both maximum braking force and minimum wheel lock.

Find that parking lot or empty street and practice applying the front brake. But walk before you can run! Don't try to lock it your first session or 3! Practice applying firmly then a quick release. The quick ease of release is the vital skill!
Eventually; you will lock the front and instantly release!
Enough of my babble. There's lots of video & reading with more comprehensive technique description. Get out there and practice! I still do it every time I ride.
__________________________________________________
The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over
SLOWn60 is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 11:15 AM   #16
allanoue
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
allanoue's Avatar
 
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
Join Date: Dec 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300..............2008 Ninja 500-sold...2009 Ninja 250-Crashed

Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Sep '14
Hard emergency breaking needs to be practiced and committed to muscle memery. You servival reaction will not like releasing the break when you think you maybe about to crash, but that is what you need to do.
__________________________________________________

Keep calm and ride on -Motofool
Never quit on a rainy day -ally99
allanoue is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 11:15 AM   #17
adouglas
Cat herder
 
adouglas's Avatar
 
Name: Gort
Location: A secret lair which, being secret, has an undisclosed location
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): Aprilia RS660

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 6
MOTM - Jul '18, Nov '16, Aug '14, May '13
Re using the rear brake under HARD braking conditions... think about that for a sec.

If you're braking so hard that you truly are at the limit, your rear tire is barely skimming the pavement.

(Just to avoid confusion, "braking hard" doesn't happen with the rear brake only... it means using all the braking power you have available, and that means the front.)

Watch the MotoGP guys and you'll see their rear tires are OFF THE GROUND under hard braking.

Link to original page on YouTube.

So:

What happens if you use your rear brake under those conditions?

If the rear wheel is off the ground, it will stop rotating right away if you're applying any significant force to the pedal.

If the rear wheel is just skimming, i.e. lightly loaded, it will lock far more easily than it will under normal cruising conditions.

A rear that loses traction (locks) and then regains traction = a highside.

This is why many track riders use very little if any rear brake. As mentioned above it's a tool for adjusting the bike's behavior, not slowing, and even then it's not used all the time.

Look at a supersport bike's brakes. There are two HUGE discs with multi-pot calipers up front. There's one disc about half the size with a single-pot caliper in back. That should tell you something: the vast majority of braking happens up front.

__________________________________________________
I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.
Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem.
adouglas is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 11:17 AM   #18
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Re using the rear brake under HARD braking conditions... think about that for a sec.

If you're braking so hard that you truly are at the limit, your rear tire is barely skimming the pavement.

(Just to avoid confusion, "braking hard" doesn't happen with the rear brake only... it means using all the braking power you have available, and that means the front.)

Watch the MotoGP guys and you'll see their rear tires are OFF THE GROUND under hard braking.

Link to original page on YouTube.

So:

What happens if you use your rear brake under those conditions?

If the rear wheel is off the ground, it will stop rotating right away if you're applying any significant force to the pedal.

If the rear wheel is just skimming, i.e. lightly loaded, it will lock far more easily than it will under normal cruising conditions.

A rear that loses traction (locks) and then regains traction = a highside.

This is why many track riders use very little if any rear brake. As mentioned above it's a tool for adjusting the bike's behavior, not slowing, and even then it's not used all the time.

Look at a supersport bike's brakes. There are two HUGE discs with multi-pot calipers up front. There's one disc about half the size with a single-pot caliper in back. That should tell you something: the vast majority of braking happens up front.

How many Ninjette racers lift the rear during a race? I certainly don't with my vintage machine, despite the front disc.

I'm also talking about small corrections mid corner. Not hard straight line braking.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 11:20 AM   #19
SLOWn60
n00bie to wannabie
 
SLOWn60's Avatar
 
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
Join Date: Sep 2015

Motorcycle(s): 2012 250R (Red), 2005 VFR800A (Red), CRF450X (Red), 2012 F800GS (Wants to be Red!)

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '15
There's another lesson o be gleaned from this thread:
Break is what happens to your turn signals & fairings if you drop your bike.
Brake as a name is the name of the part that stops your bike.
Brake is also the action of slowing down.
If you're breaking your brakes: you're foooked!!!
__________________________________________________
The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over
SLOWn60 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 11:23 AM   #20
allanoue
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
allanoue's Avatar
 
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
Join Date: Dec 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300..............2008 Ninja 500-sold...2009 Ninja 250-Crashed

Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Sep '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLOWn60 View Post
There's another lesson o be gleaned from this thread:
Break is what happens to your turn signals & fairings if you drop your bike.
Brake as a name is the name of the part that stops your bike.
Brake is also the action of slowing down.
If you're breaking your brakes: you're foooked!!!
__________________________________________________

Keep calm and ride on -Motofool
Never quit on a rainy day -ally99
allanoue is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 11:23 AM   #21
adouglas
Cat herder
 
adouglas's Avatar
 
Name: Gort
Location: A secret lair which, being secret, has an undisclosed location
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): Aprilia RS660

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 6
MOTM - Jul '18, Nov '16, Aug '14, May '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
How many Ninjette racers lift the rear during a race? I certainly don't with my vintage machine, despite the front disc.

I'm also talking about small corrections mid corner. Not hard straight line braking.
Exactly. Just want to make sure the new riders reading this thread understand what can happen under really hard braking conditions, which is what the OP is about.

As noted above, newer riders are unlikely to approach these limits, especially on a bike like the Ninjette because its brakes are nowhere near as powerful as those on a supersport machine.
__________________________________________________
I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12

Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est.
Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem.
adouglas is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 11:40 AM   #22
SLOWn60
n00bie to wannabie
 
SLOWn60's Avatar
 
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
Join Date: Sep 2015

Motorcycle(s): 2012 250R (Red), 2005 VFR800A (Red), CRF450X (Red), 2012 F800GS (Wants to be Red!)

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
I use my rear break first, if i have enough time to stop its the only one i use lol
Using the rear brake only was (and still is) a fallacy perpetrated unintentionally primarily from the cruiser crowd. There is a small degree of truth in it only because of the crappy braking systems & geometry/frame design supplied to cruisers.

Careful examination of hundreds of accident scene photos involving motorcycles often reveals a long, straight, thick black line skid mark created by the motorcycle. That skid mark is often over 100 feet long. It is virtually impossible to leave a straight, thick skid mark created by a front tire. If your front brake is being applied at even 80% efficiency; it's unlikely a rear skid mark would be visible or at most: very faint. Additionally; over use of the rear brake if leaned over will cause you to skid the rear sideways and if the brake is released; it has a high probability of resulting in a high side which is something I hope you never have to experience.
__________________________________________________
The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over
SLOWn60 is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 11:41 AM   #23
Lazarus
ninjette.org member
 
Lazarus's Avatar
 
Name: RJ
Location: PA
Join Date: Dec 2015

Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250

Posts: 210
Great advice. I regularly practice hard braking and other maneuvers in a large empty lot by my house. That s**t has saved me on multiple occasions.
Lazarus is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 12:02 PM   #24
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
I use my rear brake first, if i have enough time to stop its the only one i use lol
use your front brake.
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote


2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 12:25 PM   #25
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
How many Ninjette racers lift the rear during a race?
<--- This guy.... Some members here have witnessed it first hand from behind or watching from the fence.


The rear brake has it's place in riding true dat!, normally after the basics have been sorted out. If your gunna sort your skills, work the front brake first. I promise, it will serve you well. HD or gsxr 1000, it's in your best interest.

Dirt or vintage... maybe not so much, different animal.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 12:36 PM   #26
NevadaWolf
Certified looney toon
 
NevadaWolf's Avatar
 
Name: Teri
Location: 3952'40.7"N 11823'53.8"W (Northern NV)
Join Date: Jun 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250, 102k+ miles -- 2014 CB500X, 42k+ miles

Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 16
MOTM Jul '13, Jul '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
I use my rear brake first, if i have enough time to stop its the only one i use lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
use your front brake.
Found this neat little graphic from Honda Worldwide. The lower half is talking about their Electronically Controlled Combined ABS, but it's the upper half I want to highlight.



Notice how rear brake only is the longest to stop? The majority of your stopping power is up front, use it.
__________________________________________________
<-- Linky
Hey Unregistered! The code [you] shows the username currently logged in.
IBA # 56020 AMA # 521481 Fun Rides! ][ My Videos ][ My Gear
Hold yourself to the same rules you expect others to follow.
NevadaWolf is offline   Reply With Quote


3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 12:36 PM   #27
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
wait.. DONT use the rear brake? See this is why I feel like you need seat time and advice prior to the MSF course because my ex boyfriend who helped me get started after i bought my bike took the MSF course and told me all kinds of wrong information...
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 12:39 PM   #28
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by NevadaWolf View Post
Found this neat little graphic from Honda Worldwide. The lower half is talking about their Electronically Controlled Combined ABS, but it's the upper half I want to highlight.



Notice how rear brake only is the longest to stop? The majority of your stopping power is up front, use it.
Yeah, I only use the rear break when I have to stop waaaaaaaaaaaay ahead and I have plenty of time. I use both evenly when I have to quick stop. If I didnt train my foot to used the rear brake I feel as though in an emergancy situation I would only use the front and never touch the rear
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 12:47 PM   #29
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
wait.. DONT use the rear brake? See this is why I feel like you need seat time and advice prior to the MSF course because my ex boyfriend who helped me get started after i bought my bike took the MSF course and told me all kinds of wrong information...
No, that is not what I said. Use BOTH as needed. I have always posted...

Quote:
Develop an intimate relationship with your brakes, both front and rear.
You absolutely need to know how much is too much rear brake. Perhaps your MSF coach will witness a slightly locked rear as it's so easy to do... even on crappy brake setups.

Sorry to have confused you, I was responding to a specific member. Your bike has 4 main inputs; throttle, front brake, rear brake and gear shifter. Learning when and how to use these to your benefit is the difference between a good rider and a great rider.

Last futzed with by csmith12; May 27th, 2016 at 04:41 PM. Reason: grammer
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 12:52 PM   #30
allanoue
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
allanoue's Avatar
 
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
Join Date: Dec 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300..............2008 Ninja 500-sold...2009 Ninja 250-Crashed

Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Sep '14
MSF will teach you to use both and do as they tell you in class, but it is the front that you need to have down pat with no upper level thinking. Stopping is the single most important skill to learn.
__________________________________________________

Keep calm and ride on -Motofool
Never quit on a rainy day -ally99
allanoue is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 12:55 PM   #31
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by allanoue View Post
MSF will teach you to use both and do as they tell you in class, but it is the front that you need to have down pat with no upper level thinking. Stopping is the single most important skill to learn.
I got the front breaking down from riding a bicycle. However, it is much different on a motorcycle. You have a much heavier thing under you, and you dont stop as fast. Also, the front brakes are so sensitive sometimes I just try to barly touch them
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 01:01 PM   #32
SLOWn60
n00bie to wannabie
 
SLOWn60's Avatar
 
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
Join Date: Sep 2015

Motorcycle(s): 2012 250R (Red), 2005 VFR800A (Red), CRF450X (Red), 2012 F800GS (Wants to be Red!)

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '15
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
I got the front breaking down from riding a bicycle. However, it is much different on a motorcycle. You have a much heavier thing under you, and you dont stop as fast. Also, the front brakes are so sensitive sometimes I just try to barly touch them
It's exactly the same on a motorcycle as a bicycle other than controls and the addition of engine braking. Done correctly; you will stop faster on a motorcycle due to the size of the contact patch.
__________________________________________________
The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over
SLOWn60 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 01:05 PM   #33
allanoue
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
allanoue's Avatar
 
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
Join Date: Dec 2012

Motorcycle(s): 2013 Ninja 300..............2008 Ninja 500-sold...2009 Ninja 250-Crashed

Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Sep '14
go to you tube and search motorcycle parking lot drills
__________________________________________________

Keep calm and ride on -Motofool
Never quit on a rainy day -ally99
allanoue is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 01:09 PM   #34
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
rear brake is a compliment to your main brake: the front brake. ease into braking. the bike has to settle into the suspension and compress the tire before you have a whole lot of traction so it's immensely important to brake progressively. slamming on the brakes will lock up the tire, but gradually applying full brake over a second or two will not. the front brake has enough braking power to make the bike do a front flip if you ease into it without losing traction. its nice to use both brakes normally but if i'm in an emergency, i use engine brake instead of rear brake. harder to **** up the traction.
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 01:15 PM   #35
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
See this is why I feel like you need seat time and advice prior to the MSF course because my ex boyfriend who helped me get started after i bought my bike took the MSF course and told me all kinds of wrong information...
you have that backwards. the MSF course provides you with all that information. MSF course is not a driver test to get your license. although you get the waiver from it. the MSF course teaches you all these things you need to know. there would not be any point to the MSF if you needed to learn this stuff before taking the MSF.

also your ex is an idiot and didn't pay attention in the MSF. don't listen to him.
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote


5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 01:35 PM   #36
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
you have that backwards. the MSF course provides you with all that information. MSF course is not a driver test to get your license. although you get the waiver from it. the MSF course teaches you all these things you need to know. there would not be any point to the MSF if you needed to learn this stuff before taking the MSF.

also your ex is an idiot and didn't pay attention in the MSF. don't listen to him.
Glad someone else verified what I already knew
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 03:07 PM   #37
RacinNinja
Vintage Screwball
 
RacinNinja's Avatar
 
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
<--- This guy.... Some members here have witnessed it first hand from behind or watching from the fence.


The rear brake has it's place in riding true dat!, normally after the basics have been sorted out. If your gunna sort your skills, work the front brake first. I promise, it will serve you well. HD or gsxr 1000, it's in your best interest.

Dirt or vintage... maybe not so much, different animal.
Nope, I use the rear brake quite often. Even to trail brake when I'm just a fuzz too hot for a corner.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes!

RacinNinja is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 04:46 PM   #38
csmith12
The Corner Whisperer
 
csmith12's Avatar
 
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track)

Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
I got the front breaking down from riding a bicycle. However, it is much different on a motorcycle. You have a much heavier thing under you, and you dont stop as fast. Also, the front brakes are so sensitive sometimes I just try to barly touch them
Imma make an assumption here...

Trust me, what you might believe is hard braking, is about 1/10 of the possibilities, pedal bikes need not apply here. Do you have faith in your ability to shave off 50+mph in 100ft? If not, there is more work to be done.

And... just so you know, we ALL should be continually working on this skill, including myself.
csmith12 is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old May 27th, 2016, 05:57 PM   #39
ZeroGravity360
Just sittin on my stool..
 
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250

Posts: 429
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Imma make an assumption here...

Trust me, what you might believe is hard braking, is about 1/10 of the possibilities, pedal bikes need not apply here. Do you have faith in your ability to shave off 50+mph in 100ft? If not, there is more work to be done.

And... just so you know, we ALL should be continually working on this skill, including myself.
100 feet seems like a lot just reading it, but if I seen it in person probably not so much, so idk...
ZeroGravity360 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old May 27th, 2016, 05:58 PM   #40
alex.s
wat
 
alex.s's Avatar
 
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): wat

Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
i was amazed when i started riding pedal bikes. you barely touch the front brake on a pedal bike and the rear starts lifting off the ground. if you're smooth you can really brake unbelievably hard without any issue on a moto
__________________________________________________
alex.s is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[superbikeplanet.com] - The Italian Squeeze Job Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 November 12th, 2012 08:40 AM
[superbikeplanet.com] - Ducati May Squeeze Out Identical Quadruplets in 2013 Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 September 13th, 2012 10:50 AM
[crash.net - MotoGP] - Catalunya feeling the squeeze Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 January 9th, 2012 07:10 AM
[topix.net] - Photo of the Day: Haga's Hand Squeeze Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 October 23rd, 2009 10:00 AM
[superbikeplanet.com] - Thank God We Were Able To Squeeze That Moto-GT Coverage In Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 September 9th, 2009 01:10 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:04 AM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.