June 10th, 2013, 08:22 AM | #1 |
Friendly Graffiti Artist
Name: Andrew
Location: Idaho
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Are clutchless shifts harsh on the bike?
I've played around with clutchless shifting, up and down. The clutchless up/downshifts are smooth, tho i do feel an extra "tick" of the gear finding it's spot. I've heard this isn't bad for sequential gearboxes. I've also heard that it's harsh not only on the gearbox but potentially on the engine.
I read the active thread on KawiNinja300, but it doesn't seem to be conclusive yet. Any educated views on this? |
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June 10th, 2013, 08:44 AM | #2 |
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Andrew,
Racers do it, because they want to save as much time as possible. Many state that, if done properly, no damage is induced, up or down (down requires some throttle blip). For regular riding, I would never shift without using the clutch, since I don't see any advantage on not disengaging the engine and the transmission for that procedure. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ght=clutchless The mechanism that moves the transmission dogs can be damaged by putting excessive pressure (pre-load) on the lever before the shift happens. This article explains why: http://www.gadgetjq.com/transmission.htm
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June 10th, 2013, 08:46 AM | #3 |
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Are you doing it right?
Clutchless upshifting = Close throttle to unload the tranny and at the same time shift up. Clutchless downshifting = Blip the throttle to unload the tranny and at the same time shift down. If you hear any kind if grinding noise, you are doing damage. |
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June 10th, 2013, 08:57 AM | #4 | |
Friendly Graffiti Artist
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June 10th, 2013, 09:21 AM | #5 | |
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June 10th, 2013, 09:32 AM | #6 | |
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June 10th, 2013, 09:54 AM | #7 |
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I don't know about the 300 but the 250 trans isn't exactly cutting edge quality so even smooth clutchless shifts seem clunky when compared to the Superbikes I used to race. Because of this I only clutchless shift if I'm racing wether it be on or off the track.
If done perfect every time you may not damage anything in the long run, if done wrong your always going to be causing damage and you'll pay for it in the long run. |
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June 10th, 2013, 09:58 AM | #8 |
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June 10th, 2013, 10:05 AM | #9 | ||
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June 10th, 2013, 11:04 AM | #10 |
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A slipper clutch doesn't suddenly fix your sloppy transmission so please stop saying "oh but it has a slipper clutch" it's just killing me inside
Now that's not to say that when Kawi updated the clutch they may have also fixed the trany a bit but I don't know since I don't own a 300. So Yamaha trans are great and smooth and some just suck its the same for everyone. |
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June 10th, 2013, 11:19 AM | #11 |
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This is my first street bike, so it may not be fair, but compared to every dirtbike I've ever used, the tranny is a dream. Smooth and soft all the way.
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June 10th, 2013, 11:21 AM | #12 | |
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Yes, as Rojo explains above, the slipper clutch is just a safety feature for not locking the rear tire while downshifting aggressively. It is there to save the rider from a fall due to operational error, not to mask repetitive errors.
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June 10th, 2013, 05:55 PM | #13 | |
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I don't actually like using clutchless upshifts on the ninjettes. Aside from the clunk king tranny, the stock throttle tube has too long of a throw to get consistently smooth shifts since I never seem to be able to totally get off the throttle and shift is extra harsh on the drivetrain. |
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June 10th, 2013, 05:59 PM | #14 |
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June 10th, 2013, 07:53 PM | #15 |
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The 300 box is better shifting than my son's 2012 250. It has a tighter, more precise feel at the lever. The clutch doesn't make a difference IMO, the clutchless ups are just as good without it.
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June 10th, 2013, 08:19 PM | #16 |
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June 10th, 2013, 08:22 PM | #17 |
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The clutch is there for a reason.
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June 10th, 2013, 09:06 PM | #18 |
wat
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here is my view on the subject:
if WOT, clutchless upshift. all else, clutch.
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June 11th, 2013, 04:54 AM | #19 |
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I posted similar information in another ninja 300 forum but I guess I hurt too many feelings there
It's an arguable subject for many an not all will see eye to eye, it is what it is. Upshifts have been done for ages and there's really no issue given you're not jamming the gear in to place (potentially bending/breaking a fork, chewing up the dogs, or damaging the shift selector). Downshifts are a different story, they have been practiced for years but with more notable issues and transmission failure stories. Can you get away with both, if done properly, and probably never notice an issue? It's likely. Do you risk a catastrophic failure (something as small as a broken gear tooth coming between two gears) more so than if you were to use the clutch? Yes. Is there a benefit to clutchless downshifting on the street? No.
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June 11th, 2013, 08:37 AM | #20 |
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Oh gawd, not this argument again.
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June 11th, 2013, 08:41 AM | #21 |
Friendly Graffiti Artist
Name: Andrew
Location: Idaho
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Upshifts are legit. Down shifts are pointless and more potentially destructive.
Sums it up? |
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June 11th, 2013, 08:43 AM | #22 |
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June 11th, 2013, 09:23 AM | #23 |
Daily Ninjette rider
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Normally, after some time of repetitive sloppy shifting (with or without clutch), sharp corners go round and perpendicular surfaces develop an angle that spits the gears, ...........but a gear or dog tooth failure is not impossible, I guess.
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June 11th, 2013, 09:44 AM | #24 |
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We have a long poll thread about shifting habits here:
Upshifting - clutch or clutchless? Some good discussion in there about why people choose to shift the way they do, and some of the potential ramifications.
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June 11th, 2013, 10:51 AM | #25 |
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Jeff enjoyed my comments so much that he banned my account. I won't miss their thin skin over there.
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June 11th, 2013, 10:54 AM | #26 |
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Agreed, but at least with the clutch pulled you lose the rotational force of the engine against the gearbox. Playing heavy foot and jamming each gear in wont help the individual regardless.
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June 11th, 2013, 11:35 AM | #27 |
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June 11th, 2013, 12:04 PM | #28 |
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June 11th, 2013, 01:37 PM | #29 |
wat
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the weak point is the outer bearings. it will destroy the bearings holding the shaft in place before it destroys the gears themself. those gears are extremely high strength. but the ball bearings in the roller bearing on the ends of the shaft are seriously low quality steel comparatively.
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June 11th, 2013, 02:54 PM | #30 |
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I've noticed if riding 2-up, clutchless is a lot smoother on the passenger. Then again, I have limited experience with anyone on back so feel free to tell me how wrong I am, but I used to ride on back a lot and it was the same. If the driver was using the clutch, I'd bang helmets with him sometimes.
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June 11th, 2013, 04:43 PM | #31 |
Friendly Graffiti Artist
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Totally, that's when i started using it. I wanted my girl to feel safe on the back, and clutchless shifting was pretty slick feeling.
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June 11th, 2013, 05:03 PM | #32 | |
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On a side note, I nearly never clutchless shift in the wet. And to the OP... I have more track miles on my bike than street miles. Nearly all those miles are clutchless and WOT. Is it harder on the bike, I am sure it is. Does it matter? Most likely not.
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June 12th, 2013, 06:59 AM | #33 | |
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Name: Andrew
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I read a post of a fellow that pulled his clutch in a turn, lost momentum, and dropped his bike. It seems that clutchless would've saved him there, ya? |
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June 12th, 2013, 07:03 AM | #34 |
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I'm kinda thinking that if said rider crashed because pulled in the clutch and probably lost momentum, the only thing that would have save him was not getting on a motorcycle
Last futzed with by rojoracing53; June 12th, 2013 at 10:44 AM. |
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June 12th, 2013, 07:07 AM | #35 |
The Corner Whisperer
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lol, if your pulling the clutch midcorner, your not following throttle control rule #1 are we now.... Also, in general one should avoid shifting mid-corner as well. You can get away with it sometimes but yea, if your gunna shift midcorner, then get it done quickly, preferably clutchless and then back on the gas.
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June 12th, 2013, 09:56 AM | #36 |
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Interesting discussion! Learning a lot. Thanks!
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June 12th, 2013, 11:35 AM | #37 |
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My rule of thumb: The smoother things are, the less stress there is on any machine.
Not that it has anything to do with the Ninjette, but I found to my surprise that clutchless shifting on my GSXR is VERY smooth and easy... in fact, it's a lot smoother than using the clutch (and no, I'm not hitting the slipper -- at least I don't think so). Just think about the shift (with the appropriate throttle manipulation, of course) and it snicks right into gear, no muss no fuss. Compare this to pulling in the clutch and getting that little lurch when you let it out. That seems to me that it's stressing the drivetrain more. For me, clutchless seems smoother. It was harder to do perfectly smoothly on the Ninjette.
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June 12th, 2013, 11:43 AM | #38 |
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June 12th, 2013, 01:14 PM | #40 |
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True, dat.
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