Questions about quick flick for fast cornering

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by ally99

I'd say you maintain your pressure once your lean is set. ..... Once your lean is set and your bike is heading toward your next visual point, you do not continue adding pressure, right? At that point (or earlier), you're steadily on the gas.

So you're saying that you counter steer to a fixed point, keep counter steering (fixed pressure), and when you relax the bike comes back up?

In other words, if I read this right, you counter steer to the left by applying pressure to the bars and the bike starts to turn right. All through that turn, you're still counter steering to the left. You must be, because you're maintaining pressure on the bars. Is that what you're saying?

Simplify this for a minute. Rather than getting on the gas to accelerate through the turn, imagine just riding in a circle.

You counter steer to initiate the turn. Once in the turn, you're on maintenance throttle only, riding around and around until your gas runs out.

What happens if you completely relax all steering pressure on the bars, but keep that maintenance throttle going?

I say the bike will keep going around the circle until you apply an input to bring it up. If I understand what you're saying in the above, you believe the bike would stand up all by itself. Right?

[EsrTek]

Thinking in too black and white here... yes technically you stop your input (so you don't keep leaning until you fall).
However, when you get back on the gas, that will make the bike want to stand. Therefore it feels like your adding pressure on bars to maintain that radius and not let the bike stand until you want it to.

[Aufitt]

Ive read the thread and don't understand one bit of it.

Any sharp movement will break traction land you on your ass.
Smooth is fast.

[adouglas]

See "maintenance throttle" above.

The point of the thought experiment is to isolate the steering input in order to answer the following question: Do you or do you not continue to counter steer to maintain a steady-state turn?

I say no. The geometry of the bike makes it stable in the turn. A given speed and lean angle will produce a given rate of turn with no steering input at all. Maintenance throttle keeps the speed steady.

Think about it from the point of view of wheel alignment. To go around a turn, the front wheel must be pointed in the direction of the turn. This is obvious. What counter steering does is lean the bike over by pointing the wheel in the opposite direction. Once it's leaned over, geometry (trail) allows the front wheel to deflect the correct amount.

Do that bicycle experiment. See what happens. The wheel flops in the direction of the lean.

But if you continue to counter steer, you're forcing the wheel to keep pointing in the wrong direction -- opposite the turn. You MUST relax for it to track in the direction of the turn.

Video proof: Is this guy applying any pressure to the bars once in the turn? No. Pressure is not needed once you're turning.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by adouglas

So you're saying that you counter steer to a fixed point, keep counter steering (fixed pressure), and when you relax the bike comes back up?

In other words, if I read this right, you counter steer to the left by applying pressure to the bars and the bike starts to turn right. All through that turn, you're still counter steering to the left. You must be, because you're maintaining pressure on the bars. Is that what you're saying?

I love questions that force me to think!
The question here could be an issue of semantics...the definition of countersteering itself. David Hough in Proficient Motorcycling described countersteering as "turns are initiated by [B]momentarily[B] steering the front wheel opposite to the direction of lean....Because the handlebars are initially turned opposite,or counter, to the direction of lean, this is called countersteering."
I'm saying at max lean yes, I push on the bar until my bike is pointed right where I want it to go. If I need to tighten up past that point, I typically lower my body position or move further off the bike slowly and smoothly to hook the bike into the turn a little tighter rather than pushing harder on the bars. Now, if not at max lean and I need to tighten up (my typical street riding style), yes, I would countersteer again in the turn to lean the bike further. I think the best technique is to use good throttle control and find your delayed apex line which would complete the corner in one solid steering input rather than countersteering multiple times, but we all know we don't nail every single corner perfectly every time.

Originally Posted by adouglas

What happens if you completely relax all steering pressure on the bars, but keep that maintenance throttle going?

I say the bike will keep going around the circle until you apply an input to bring it up. If I understand what you're saying in the above, you believe the bike would stand up all by itself. Right?

I agree with you. To come out of the turn/lean, you'd countersteer the other way by pushing on the opposite bar (or pulling on the downward bar).

Ok, it's been a super long day and I've sat at work 20 minutes later than I had to to answer, so take my reply with a grain of salt.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ally99

but we all know we don't nail every single corner perfectly every time.

It's how he/she rides through the imperfections that builds a great rider character.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Video proof: Is this guy applying any pressure to the bars once in the turn? No. Pressure is not needed once you're turning.

How much pressure is needed to hold your line with good throttle control?

Your bike' setup has much to do with this. The smallest of things can change that fact.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

How much pressure is needed to hold your line with good throttle control?

Your bike' setup has much to do with this. The smallest of things can change that fact.

i think it depends on your throttle... no throttle means you are slowing down and the weight goes forward dropping your forks a bit which changes your trail which alters how much the bike wants to auto correct. so depending on setup, at no throttle the bike might want to fall into the turn, whereas at full throttle the bike might want to stand up.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by ally99

I love questions that force me to think!
The question here could be an issue of semantics...the definition of countersteering itself. David Hough in Proficient Motorcycling described countersteering as "turns are initiated by [B]momentarily[B] steering the front wheel opposite to the direction of lean....Because the handlebars are initially turned opposite,or counter, to the direction of lean, this is called countersteering."
I'm saying at max lean yes, I push on the bar until my bike is pointed right where I want it to go. If I need to tighten up past that point, I typically lower my body position or move further off the bike slowly and smoothly to hook the bike into the turn a little tighter rather than pushing harder on the bars. Now, if not at max lean and I need to tighten up (my typical street riding style), yes, I would countersteer again in the turn to lean the bike further. I think the best technique is to use good throttle control and find your delayed apex line which would complete the corner in one solid steering input rather than countersteering multiple times, but we all know we don't nail every single corner perfectly every time.



I agree with you. To come out of the turn/lean, you'd countersteer the other way by pushing on the opposite bar (or pulling on the downward bar).

Cool cool cool. Now, let's go back to the @Misti question that kicked this whole thing off...

Originally Posted by Misti

Yes absolutely, you roll on the gas asap once the bike is turned but what do you do with the pressure on the handlebars? Do you continue pressing on the bar throughout the entire turn or do you counter-steer into the turn and then STOP pressing the bar and then roll on the gas?

M

[EsrTek]

Touche Mr Douglas... yes w/ maintenance throttle, no other input/pressure on bars is needed once your leaned enough to take turn.
It works like that whether going straight or turning... once bike is pointed in direction you want...you can remove hands from bars completely and bike will stay in that line given.

Link to original page on YouTube.

PS - I like that vid's, you posted, music choice ..

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I would have to say stop.

Countersteering is what makes the bike flop over in the first place... so logically, continuing with the pressure will make it flop over further.

In other words, countersteering initiates the turn. If you relax, you're not turning the bike any more. It's at steady state, tracking around a circle (assuming you've got maintenance throttle). More countersteering would add more lean/turn until, ultimately, you fall down and go boom.

The way I picture countersteering is that you're making the wheel "trip" and start to fall over. Once that happens, if you relax the wheel will come back and start tracking around the turn all by itself... because of caster effect (trail).

The mental image I have is of a coin rolling along. "Steer" it to the left but keep it moving straight ahead (which it will want to do because it's got inertia) and it's easy to see how it will fall over to its right -- in the direction opposite the steer. Carry the image further and remove the steering input, and you can see how caster will make it return to equilibrium... but because we're now leaned, steering geometry will naturally make it track around the turn.

But continue the steering input and it just wants to keep falling.....

Great answer here and thoroughly explained. You counter steer into the turn and once you have your lean angle set you STOP pressing. If you continue to put input into the handlebar then the bike will continue to lean over throughout the turn and you will have to make steering corrections to maintain your line.

Originally Posted by ally99

I'd say you maintain your pressure once your lean is set. Look, lean, believe. Most of the time, the "believe" step is the most difficult, resulting in tension or other SRs. Once your lean is set and your bike is heading toward your next visual point, you do not continue adding pressure, right? At that point (or earlier), you're steadily on the gas.

You are right that you do not continue to add pressure once your lean angle is set but instead of saying "Maintain" pressure, we like to say, "release" pressure. So you press on the bar to initiate lean and once you are set at the lean angle you want you stop pressing on the bar and roll on the gas. It is a common misconception that you have to maintain pressure on the bar throughout the entire turn.

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Thinking in too black and white here... yes technically you stop your input (so you don't keep leaning until you fall).
However, when you get back on the gas, that will make the bike want to stand. Therefore it feels like your adding pressure on bars to maintain that radius and not let the bike stand until you want it to.

Not true. Rolling on the gas does not stand the bike up. The bike stands up when you STEER it back up.

Originally Posted by Aufitt

Ive read the thread and don't understand one bit of it.

Any sharp movement will break traction land you on your ass.
Smooth is fast.

Smooth is fast for sure but you can have quick, sharp, fast, hard movements that are still smooth. What you want to avoid is any jerky movements that will upset the bike. When you need to get the bike turned hella fast then you have to put a hard, fast, strong shove into the bars to get it turned quick enough....but it can still be smooth

Great discussion!!!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I feel that steering is one of my strengths as a rider

And now under review this is my greatest weakness. Watching through my video from my last trip to the track I find that I am very much so taking my time with my steering rather than steering quickly like I can on the 250.

Which raises the question, why would I feel that my steering is one of my strengths on a 250 and yet it is my weakness on a 600?

Couple of theories:
With wider tires it takes more physical effort to steer the bike and I am used to using less effort with the skinny 250 tires so I don't steer it as effectively out of fear of turning the bike too much too early. In other words lack of familiarity with the equipment.

Turning in at higher speeds can be scary, basically lack of confidence because of the speed increase. Once again possible, but less likely as I was able to steer the bike effectively enough to navigate a few high speed corners wide open at jennings.

It could be mental, a subconscious belief that because the brakes are much more responsive the risk is higher to lean the bike all the way since it would be easier to lose the front on trailbraking

It could also be that in the effort of being smooth I am turning slower because it feels smoother to me and the equation smooth=fast bounces around in my head while riding, very possible

But now for the next question, how does one practice steering. Acceleration is simple, just learn to roll on the throttle smoothly and consistently out of the corner. Braking as well to a degree, brake just a little bit less then brake more further down and slowly edge the brake markers closer to the turn in point. Body Position is also easy to practice since it can be practiced with the bike on a stand. But steering? Perhaps parking lot maneuvers? but do low speed maneuvers truly transfer over to higher speed ones? Practicing this on the street is not really an option as I've reached a level that would require me to triple posted limits if I were to try to practice the technique on the streets in any way that actually involves leaning the bike.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

And now under review this is my greatest weakness. Watching through my video from my last trip to the track I find that I am very much so taking my time with my steering rather than steering quickly like I can on the 250.

Which raises the question, why would I feel that my steering is one of my strengths on a 250 and yet it is my weakness on a 600?

Couple of theories:
With wider tires it takes more physical effort to steer the bike and I am used to using less effort with the skinny 250 tires so I don't steer it as effectively out of fear of turning the bike too much too early. In other words lack of familiarity with the equipment.

YEP!

Turning in at higher speeds can be scary, basically lack of confidence because of the speed increase. Once again possible, but less likely as I was able to steer the bike effectively enough to navigate a few high speed corners wide open at jennings.

YEP!

It could be mental, a subconscious belief that because the brakes are much more responsive the risk is higher to lean the bike all the way since it would be easier to lose the front on trailbraking

Unlikely right now

It could also be that in the effort of being smooth I am turning slower because it feels smoother to me and the equation smooth=fast bounces around in my head while riding, very possible

Of course, because easy feels smoother

Turning fast can also be smooth, but takes a bit more practice.

But now for the next question, how does one practice steering. [snip] Perhaps parking lot maneuvers? but do low speed maneuvers truly transfer over to higher speed ones? Practicing this on the street is not really an option as I've reached a level that would require me to triple posted limits if I were to try to practice the technique on the streets in any way that actually involves leaning the bike.

If you take a CSS school, the very first thing you will do is not even on the track. It's a steering exercise in the parking lot. Set up some cones and weave, that practice will nearly be 100% directly transfered to the track and reveal itself as "confidence in steering". There is nothing more confidence inspiring as knowing you can point the bike in any direction at a moments notice. Tip: Focus on the countersteer and nothing else...

Steering can be practiced on the street as well, sure it's more lazy when compared to the track but again, the focus is to build the habit of a confident countersteer. There will be a few corners that you can quick flick, but many more than will not need a quick flick. Besides, a quick flick in front of the popo draws attention to yourself in a negative way in many cases.

Also, after a bit more time on the bike, figuring yourself out and learning what you want from the bike, you then can start making changes to the bike's setup to make it work with you, to make it act as an extension of yourself.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

...........
Couple of theories:
With wider tires it takes more physical effort to steer the bike and I am used to using less effort with the skinny 250 tires so I don't steer it as effectively out of fear of turning the bike too much too early. In other words lack of familiarity with the equipment.

Turning in at higher speeds can be scary, basically lack of confidence because of the speed increase. ........

But now for the next question, how does one practice steering. ......

I believe that tire's profile have nothing to do with it.
You are basically forcing the whole bike to quickly rotate sideways around its center of gravity.
The handle bar, steering components and contact patches are your lever mechanism to induce that lateral roll with the force of your muscles and anchorage points to the bike (lower body, tank, foot peg): nothing else.

There are two main things resisting that lateral roll:
1) Moment of inertia.
2) Gyroscopic effect of both tires and crankshaft.

1) Inertia to rotation is higher for heavier mass and/or for more distance between masses far from center.
For this reason, a heavier bike with similar leverage mechanism (handlebar and steering geometry) presents higher resistance to the flick.
The body position has influence also: tucked and knees against tank flicks easier than standing upper-body and hanging off.



2) Inertia of spinning masses to be rotated (gyroscopic effect) is higher for heavier mass.
For this reason, the heavier wheels, tires and crankshaft of a 600 present higher resistance to initiating the flick.

Note that even when it requires more force into the handlebar, the precession effect helps rotating the bike sideways in the desired direction.
Same effect helps stopping the lateral rotation or flick when we stop the handlebar input close to reaching the desired lean angle (into which the bike naturally wants to go because it is a new state of balance for cornering).




Regarding "fear of turning the bike too much too early", please read this:
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...showtopic=4101

Finally, practicing steering at low speeds is completely different than steering at high speeds, due to the forces associated to higher rotational speeds explained above.
The angles at which the handlebar must be deflected at low speeds in order to flick the bike are high (think Gymkhana practices), while the applied forces are lower.

I would say that practicing quick-flick at high rates of speed should be a gradual exercise, so the feeling of greater forces and smaller handlebar angles and more precise timing (of start and stop leaning) is learned within a comfort zone.

[gogoKawi]

Originally Posted by csmith12

If you take a CSS school, the very first thing you will do is not even on the track. It's a steering exercise in the parking lot. Set up some cones and weave, that practice will nearly be 100% directly transfered to the track and reveal itself as "confidence in steering". There is nothing more confidence inspiring as knowing you can point the bike in any direction at a moments notice. Tip: Focus on the countersteer and nothing else...

Funny you write this... CSS also tries to teach you to turn as quickly as possible. I say "tries" because this is easier said than done. But is a very good skill to learn, especially when you start racing. They showed this video to our class to illustrate what it should look like when you initiate a turn.

Link to original page on YouTube.

I don't this applies to all turning, as it depends on the track, bike, weather, etc. Rider style is another piece of the puzzle. I'm a point a shoot rider (though I'm trying to change that), so this works great for me right now. My friend is all about corner speed and has problems turning-in fast like this while carrying his normal speed. YMMV.

[Sirref]

^ Damn that is some precise steering, that video actually gives me a better idea of what I should be aiming towards.

I can see especially at summit main how important being able to flick the bike like that is. Tons of sharp corners that you want to get maximum drive out of following straights. (T1 comes to mind first)

Thank you for the writeup @Motofool I was going off of feeling on that one since smaller profile tires tend to be steeper which leads to easier steering along with the other factors. but your explanation makes quite a bit of sense as well

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by gogoKawi

Funny you write this... CSS also tries to teach you to turn as quickly as possible. I say "tries" because this is easier said than done. But is a very good skill to learn, especially when you start racing.

Originally Posted by gogoKawi

I don't this applies to all turning, as it depends on the track, bike, weather, etc. Rider style is another piece of the puzzle. I'm a point a shoot rider (though I'm trying to change that), so this works great for me right now. My friend is all about corner speed and has problems turning-in fast like this while carrying his normal speed. YMMV.

If I were a betting man, I bet your friend is charging the turns. Sure... it's plenty fast going in, but slower coming out. Or could be a bad turn in point or line.

Check this...

[racer secret #2]
A very fast rider understands or takes advantage of of the fact that the maximum corner entry speed is based on their ability to quickly get the bike online, ie how quickly they can turn it.
[/racer secret]

Why?

[racer secret #3]
Just like throttle control rule #1, turning is the same way. Get the turn completed ASAP. It doesn't always mean a flick rate of .5 a second. But as the conditions (bike + rider + traction + turn in point + speed) dictate. Quick flicking it into a long sweeper at 150mph just doesn't make sense.
[/racer secret]

Since the gyro force is high at 150mph or high entry speeds, how does a rider get the needed force to power a faster turn in rate?

[Sirref]

Push from the outside foot through the body into the inside bar, much like a jab

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Push from the outside foot through the body into the inside bar, much like a jab

Sure! Can you think of anything else?

[Sirref]

Pull on the outside bar at the same time

[csmith12]

Cool! There is something else too and is related to the images of the weightlifter that Motofool posted. That same thing will also have a large effect on how well the rider can pull on the outside bar.

[Sirref]

Hmm, I hadn't considered a third method so this is tricky

perhaps the location of where your hand is on the bars? For instance to have your hand further out on the bars to get more leverage?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Hmm, I hadn't considered a third method so this is tricky

perhaps the location of where your hand is on the bars? For instance to have your hand further out on the bars to get more leverage?

Possibly, but further out on the outside bar would make the leverage to pull even weaker with very aggressive body position. (that's a hint by the way...)

[Sirref]

so bring the outside hand in?

OR

move butt off seat
brake
tip in and hang off with the upper body in one clean movement

no major jerks from changing body positioning since the lower body is already off and the upper body is moved in the same direction as the turn in and at the same time

This rather than to tip in after hanging off which is what I have been doing

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

This rather than to tip in after hanging off which is what I have been doing

Keep doing what you're doing.

In Motofools graphics there are 2 scenarios; weights on the inside and weights on the outside. So, keeping the weight closer to the center helps the bike turn.

So one could assert;
Hanging off too much doesn't help.
Hanging off, but staying close to the bike helps. (ie he also stays inline with the bike)

Which is why you never see Dylan doing this;


It would be very hard to pull effectively on the outside bar when the upper body is that extended.

[alex.s]

that quick flick in that video is nice. but remember there are many places where doing that quick flick faster isn't helping anything. wide open turns, off camber turns, decreasing radius turns. quick flick can be good if you can put some weight on the front tire. which can be an issue on the 250 when you are trying to go fast... but if you try to quick flick too fast with no weight on the front, you wind up just sliding a few feet to the outside. no help there. many turns on most tracks you simply take wide open on the 250 which means being very ginger on the steering sometimes. you use quick turn ins so much more on a 600

[Sirref]

So today I experimented a bit with flicking the bike into the corner quicker on my 300. I wasn't riding fast in any sense or anything (highest speed on my ride today was around 60mph) just wanted a better feel for how the steering reacts to more pressure and whatnot, so no hanging off to go along with it. I found myself very consistently doing 4 things

1. Oversteering, though I started to turn in a bit later to correct for this I still found myself oversteering occasionally even when running out as far as I could before tipping it in
2. leaning the bike a lot less, this felt really weird and backwards to me
3. snapping the bike right back up at what felt like no time leaned over at all
4. loving the falling sensation

My belief on the matter when I transition it to track riding and add the speed in that the oversteering issue will go away a bit due to the extra speed involved and the ability to "use both lanes"

leaning the bike less at the same speed means higher corner speeds than before are possible when adding the speed back in at the track

snapping the bike right back up is the biggest advantage I see for track use, this means getting on the power faster and getting more of that fun "shot out of a cannon" feeling on corner exit

[alex.s]

what's nice about the track is you get the chance to take the same corners over and over so you can each time try a little bit harder and a little bit harder until you get a real good feel for how much force it takes to get how much lean angle.

[Sirref]

yup, hopefully 3 days at njmp is enough laps for me to get down to at least a 1:32 there before the season opening race.

Just need to follow that mentality and it'll happen eventually

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

So today I experimented a bit with flicking the bike into the corner quicker on my 300. I wasn't riding fast in any sense or anything (highest speed on my ride today was around 60mph) just wanted a better feel for how the steering reacts to more pressure and whatnot, so no hanging off to go along with it. I found myself very consistently doing 4 things

1. Oversteering, though I started to turn in a bit later to correct for this I still found myself oversteering occasionally even when running out as far as I could before tipping it in
2. leaning the bike a lot less, this felt really weird and backwards to me
3. snapping the bike right back up at what felt like no time leaned over at all
4. loving the falling sensation

My belief on the matter when I transition it to track riding and add the speed in that the oversteering issue will go away a bit due to the extra speed involved and the ability to "use both lanes"

leaning the bike less at the same speed means higher corner speeds than before are possible when adding the speed back in at the track

snapping the bike right back up is the biggest advantage I see for track use, this means getting on the power faster and getting more of that fun "shot out of a cannon" feeling on corner exit

The magic thing is that you were not falling, but transitioning from one state of balance (for straight trajectory) to a new state of balance (for circular trajectory).
Exactly the opposite to what is happening while you are snapping the bike right back up.

[Motofool]

Copied from "ATOTW2", Chapter 17:

"The major limit to your turn-entry speed is how quickly you can steer. Improving this one ability will do more for your turn-entry confidence than any other single thing and will help solve ....... errors and SRs (associated to steering too slowly)."

Quick flick is about turning the bike (in degrees of turn rotation) as much as possible in as little time as possible while it is falling into the final lean angle.

......and yes, it is associated to late entry point and late apex, as a way to increase visual range into the curve.

A reduced subsequent lean angle is a desirable consequence of the technique.