Most important attribute of a riding coach?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by alex.s

if you are already at max lean for the speed, i don't think letting the throttle off will help anything quickly enough. if you wanted to take this route and you actually needed to do something about going wide (ie so wide you are going to run off the track) i think maybe you would be better off standing it up part way and applying brakes before putting it back down... but you would need a lot of time for that though. a full second minimum. if you're already past the apex and about to run off like maybe you slid a few feet and now you're pushing way wide... i don't know if there is really much you can do aside from getting that hook in body lower or run off and try to bring it back in. if it was me and i was max lean already and the option for running off is simply not there then i would push it into the ground. you can still keep it going in the direction you want even if its crashing in that direction. i would rather lowside in the road than run straight off a cliff. plus who knows, maybe you'll marquez it. then again, maybe you'll simo it.

Agree that if you are at max lean then letting off the throttle isn't going to help much, in fact if you are already running wide then letting off the gas will push you even wider.

Leaning the bike MORE can result in a low side because you are already at your max lean so pushing it farther can put you on the ground.

You mention getting lower in your hook position and really, that is your best option as it will tighten up your line WITHOUT adding any extra lean angle. So what is the hook position and how do you get into it in order to tighten your line?

[alex.s]

my understanding of the hook is that you are essentially, intentionally partially crossed up at first with your lower body in a good position but your upper body still left up toward the top of the tank as you enter the turn, but then when needed, your upper body can move down more to where your handle bar is, moving your weight down which seems to move the bike up... which not only starts you turning a bit tighter, but it means you have new clearance which means you can turn more (although trying to add lean angle mid corner is a recipe for disaster, but if you're already heading for disaster, maybe trying something different could help)

from how i've used it, it's especially helpful on decreasing radius turns where careful braking is required well into the turn... then you can drop the hook and start getting on the gas... it just works out well, i donno why exactly

i feel like it is easier to have my weight back further on the bike when im crossed up braking into a turn vs full lean into turn braking.... makes it easier to deal with the rear end coming up i think... or maybe it is just that i get a better sense of the rear end coming up when my head is upright like that?

[alex.s]

watching marquez, when he seems to encounter the "oh **** its not gonna happen" situation, it seems like he just drags his entire side of his body on the ground and pushes the bike back up after lowsiding around the corner. intentional?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

Yes. If you turn the bike in too early then you early apex and run wide. The solution is to turn in later but sometimes no matter how many times you tell yourself to turn in later, you continue to turn the bike in early. Why do you think that is?

What things can you do to help you push your turn in point a little later or deeper?

For me it's getting over that mental block on turn-in of, oh ****, I'm running out of pavement. Turning in early feels "safe" until you start running out of pavement and running wide on the exit. Pushing it later or deeper into the corner helps you see more before committing to a lean angle, which makes for more accurate visualizations and the safest, fastest line through a corner. The more you can see through it before committing to your lean angle, the better you can gauge the corner as a whole. This helps especially in a decreasing radius turn where the corner keeps closing on you.

Originally Posted by Misti

You mention getting lower in your hook position and really, that is your best option as it will tighten up your line WITHOUT adding any extra lean angle. So what is the hook position and how do you get into it in order to tighten your line?

Hook turns are my favorite way to tighten a corner. Admittedly, it's easier for me to hook 'em when the pavement is predictable (like on a track), even though it's still the best strategy when cornering on the street too because, in essence, the more you lean for the bike, the less the bike has to lean for you. Rubber on the ground is crucial, so you want as much of it contacting the ground as possible. The further you are off the bike in a max lean kind of situation, the more rubber there is still contacting the pavement.
Hooking is fun! At the track, once I set my line, I can continue tightening it up all the way through just by smoothly moving my body further down and off. Keeping pressure off the bars, supporting yourself with the outside knee on the tank is important to keep in mind.

[csmith12]

lol.... from following you around on track, I believe I got an idea of why you feel uneasy about the turn in. You got me for a whole day at the track, we will specifically work on vision at turn in Feb. Maybe getting a few other things done ahead of time so the turn in is less "busy".

Originally Posted by ally99

Hooking is fun!

[csmith12]

Also Ally, the brakes on my 250 are beast!!!! You will experience first hand what brakes are supposed to feel like. Running deeper into a corner will somewhat come on it's own as you adjust to knowing that you can hit your entry speed with very little effort.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

lol.... from following you around on track, I believe I got an idea of why you feel uneasy about the turn in. You got me for a whole day at the track, we will specifically work on vision at turn in Feb. Maybe getting a few other things done ahead of time so the turn in is less "busy".

If I'm not too "skerd". I humbly admit, seeing how November was going to be my last track day before its painful end, I'm a bit wary of pushing the envelope "one more time". I definitely learned the lesson that Ally can break...never internalized that reality before.
I may not take your whole day Chris. I'm going to conquer the track enough to feel a "win", and then I'm done. I'm going to beat it before I end the amazing hobby I have relished for 4 years now. Then I can end it happy.

Edit: Admittedly, when i couldn't thumb up or hop up after that crash like I usually do...when I was struggling to breathe and crying face-down on what I didn't even know at the time was the middle of the racetrack, for the first time in 6 years and 60,000+ miles of riding, I felt fear. **** fear.

[csmith12]

I got you, I will be there 100% of the time. We are gunna have a great day. Just ride and have fun, I don't care if we do laps at 35mph. I just want you to have a great day with many smiles.

[ally99]

Scraping a little more off my knee puck before retiring them would be fun.

Edit: My left one would need replacing soon if I kept tracking.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I got you, I will be there 100% of the time. We are gunna have a great day. Just ride and have fun, I don't care if we do laps at 35mph. I just want you to have a great day with many smiles.

Me too. Thanks

Disclaimer: If we are riding 35mph after the 2nd session, I won't ride afternoon. If 35mph is my win, that win will end really early.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by alex.s

my understanding of the hook is that you are essentially, intentionally partially crossed up at first with your lower body in a good position but your upper body still left up toward the top of the tank as you enter the turn, but then when needed, your upper body can move down more to where your handle bar is, moving your weight down which seems to move the bike up... which not only starts you turning a bit tighter, but it means you have new clearance which means you can turn more (although trying to add lean angle mid corner is a recipe for disaster, but if you're already heading for disaster, maybe trying something different could help)

from how i've used it, it's especially helpful on decreasing radius turns where careful braking is required well into the turn... then you can drop the hook and start getting on the gas... it just works out well, i donno why exactly

i feel like it is easier to have my weight back further on the bike when im crossed up braking into a turn vs full lean into turn braking.... makes it easier to deal with the rear end coming up i think... or maybe it is just that i get a better sense of the rear end coming up when my head is upright like that?

Not sure I understand the very beginning of your statement where you say that to start the hook you are intentionally partially crossed up? The way I describe the hook turn is that you are in your hang off position, off to the side, locked in BUT you are not already trying to drag an elbow or hang WAY off the side of the bike. You have good body position for getting around the turn BUT if you find yourself running a bit wide or that the turn tightens up a bit you still have a little bit of reserve left so that you can drop your upper body DOWN and FORWARD.

This will help the bike tighten its line without adding any extra lean angle. Why would moving your upper body down and forward help the bike tighten its line?

Originally Posted by alex.s

watching marquez, when he seems to encounter the "oh **** its not gonna happen" situation, it seems like he just drags his entire side of his body on the ground and pushes the bike back up after lowsiding around the corner. intentional?

I'd say this is just his extreme version of the hook turn He tends to take his riding to the extreme in all cases

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

For me it's getting over that mental block on turn-in of, oh ****, I'm running out of pavement. Turning in early feels "safe" until you start running out of pavement and running wide on the exit. Pushing it later or deeper into the corner helps you see more before committing to a lean angle, which makes for more accurate visualizations and the safest, fastest line through a corner. The more you can see through it before committing to your lean angle, the better you can gauge the corner as a whole. This helps especially in a decreasing radius turn where the corner keeps closing on you.



Hook turns are my favorite way to tighten a corner. Admittedly, it's easier for me to hook 'em when the pavement is predictable (like on a track), even though it's still the best strategy when cornering on the street too because, in essence, the more you lean for the bike, the less the bike has to lean for you. Rubber on the ground is crucial, so you want as much of it contacting the ground as possible. The further you are off the bike in a max lean kind of situation, the more rubber there is still contacting the pavement.
Hooking is fun! At the track, once I set my line, I can continue tightening it up all the way through just by smoothly moving my body further down and off. Keeping pressure off the bars, supporting yourself with the outside knee on the tank is important to keep in mind.

What kinds of things can you do to get over the mental block of turning in too early? You feel like you are running out of pavement so you turn early which just creates issues later in the turn....what specific things can you do before or AT turn in to help you over come these issues?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

Not sure I understand the very beginning of your statement where you say that to start the hook you are intentionally partially crossed up?

Alex and I have ridden together, and what he commented is not what I witnessed . I believe he means good bp to start, but it's that extra effort to go from average bp to more aggressive bp while mid corner is the where most riders find the beginnings of what the hook turn does for them. It starts off subtle like that, imho of course.... Because that is I what I saw from his six.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by Misti

What would you guys say is the most important attribute of a riding coach or instructor? If you were working with one, what would be the main thing that would make an instructor exceptional rather than just fair or good?

Misti

responding before reading the whole thread.

I think patience is the most important atrribute.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Alex and I have ridden together, and what he commented is not what I witnessed . I believe he means good bp to start, but it's that extra effort to go from average bp to more aggressive bp while mid corner is the where most riders find the beginnings of what the hook turn does for them. It starts off subtle like that, imho of course.... Because that is I what I saw from his six.

Gotcha, that makes sense

So, when do you get in the hook position? Right at the beginning of the turn, in the middle, near the end? Does it depend?

[ninjunk]

Hey Y'all I just wanted to briefly threadjack and mention that I came on this forum looking for some used parts and tech help and have been reading through some of these old threads with great interest. What a cool hidden gem of knowledge.

Part of the reason i like internet forums is because you find commonality with strangers over one thing that everyone likes, and turns out there is commonality in other areas. Who would have thunkit that some great riders and instructors are also drawn to the lowly ninjette?

Very cool, carry on, I'm enjoying the read!

[csmith12]

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

LOVE THIS!!!

[csmith12]

Ya know Misti, I sometimes wonder what "might have been" if I had went farther with the CSS coaching stuff. It's extremely rare for me to second guess myself... :\

I know it's outside of the norm, but maybe Cobie will let me try out/go through the process again someday when I grow up a bit more.

[SLOWn60]

Don't grow up!!! It's a trap!!!!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Don't grow up!!! It's a trap!!!!

Lol!!!! ikr. I am still 21yrs old, never mind... I will let my wife answer that question.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Ya know Misti, I sometimes wonder what "might have been" if I had went farther with the CSS coaching stuff. It's extremely rare for me to second guess myself... :\

I know it's outside of the norm, but maybe Cobie will let me try out/go through the process again someday when I grow up a bit more.

I'm sure he would. You clearly have a good grasp of the technical stuff and in how to go about encouraging students to think for themselves. And you certainly don't have to grow up to work for CSS. We are all just kids playing around and having fun, the cool part is that they PAY us for it

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

Don't grow up!!! It's a trap!!!!

You don't have too!! Think about it, I get paid to ride motorcycles and play at the track and meet cool people that I can help become better riders and it's all fun and silly and cool.

Best. Job. Ever.