How to deal with a road surface that's unleveled?

[Brian]

Always around town there are streets that have been drove over so many times by cars that the ground it is now indented with the shape of their tires. Since the tires are about 5 feet apart over time this leaves an area of un-ridden which is the center of the car.

I drew on the right side of the picture to show what i'm talking about:


How can I deal with this situation? is it still safe to stay on the center of the lane as us bikers should, or move to one of the wheel indents on the road for a flatter more ride-able surface?
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Solved for future reference:

Originally Posted by ally99

If you find someone in the lane beside you and you know you're in their blind (or cut-off) spot, reposition yourself. All conditions equal, the left side of the lane is best.

Originally Posted by csmith12

Highway or city street, the preference is still the same. Left side of the lane and don't linger in blind spots too long. This is normally accomplished by going slightly faster than the flow of traffic.

[NevadaWolf]

Not sure what actual wisdom says but I personally avoid the middle of the road since that's where all the oil and gunk from cars builds.

Generally, I ride in the left indent so any cars ahead of me can see me in the drivers mirror, approaching cars can see me behind the car ahead, and i have enough time to react to hazards on the sides of the road (cows, deer, rabbits). Also helps at stop lights so I can put my left foot down on clean pavement while keeping my other foot on the brake.

The whole lane is yours, use the left, right, or middle depending on the circumstances and whatever position is safest for you.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Brian

How can I deal with this situation?

there is no situation to deal with. other larger factors have a more important role and take precedence

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

...........is it still safe to stay on the center of the lane as us bikers should, .............

Avoid the center as much as possible, except when other circumstances force you to use it.

Adding to the above posts, debris tend to land on the center after being pushed around by cars' tires.

[allanoue]

Ride where you are most visible to others. Normally I think that is on the inside but sometimes it is in the middle. That is were my priority is.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

The whole lane is yours, use the left, right, or middle depending on the circumstances and whatever position is safest for you.

Thanks for the replies guys.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

How can I deal with this situation? is it still safe to stay on the center of the lane as us bikers should

I disagree with this. The center of the lane is often where oil slicks or gravel patches are found...or even nails falling out of work trucks. It also puts you at greater risk of being pancaked between vehicles in traffic. I typically stay to the left of my lane depending on the all the other myriad factors there are to consider in each changing moment on the street.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by ally99

I disagree with this. The center of the lane is often where oil slicks or gravel patches are found...or even nails falling out of work trucks. It also puts you at greater risk of being pancaked between vehicles in traffic. I typically stay to the left of my lane depending on the all the other myriad factors there are to consider in each changing moment on the street.

I'm just going by what the book says, doesn't the MSF teach this too to stay in the center of the lane because its the safest where everyone would see you? Also if someone tries cutting into my lane I have time to react with out getting hit. I think its just a judgement call and making sure I can adjust to my conditions.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm just going by what the book says, doesn't the MSF teach this too to stay in the center of the lane because its the safest where everyone would see you? Also if someone tries cutting into my lane I have time to react with out getting hit. I think its just a judgement call and making sure I can adjust to my conditions.

does not
LOL
http://www.msf-usa.org/CurriculumMat...ndbook2011.pdf
read unit 4

[Boom King]

Blocking position

[Brian]

Well that's what it said in my Mass motorcycle manual.. I actually haven't taken a MSF course before but I thought they taught the same rules that would be approved by the states standards.

[NevadaWolf]

The key is being safe and being seen. There are times when the center of the road is the safest. There are times when you avoid it like the plague. Typically, because of the bump and the sludge that accumulates there, its not a good idea to remain in that position.

The only reference to the center position i could find in the RMV manual was this passage:

Lane Sharing
It is recommended that motorcycle riders avoid sharing lanes with other vehicles. All motor vehicles are permitted to use the full lane of travel to ensure safe operation. Motorcycle riders are prohibited from riding alongside motor vehicles within a marked travel lane. Position the cycle in the center of the travel lane to discourage motorists from attempting to squeeze by the cycle. Motorists are more prone to this type of behavior when traveling in heavy traffic, passing vehicles, turning, and entering or exiting highways. Further, a responsible rider recognizes the potential for injury and avoids traveling between rows of stopped motor vehicles.

Being in the left position accomplishes the same since it blocks a vehicle from cutting between you and the center line. This is the reason the right position on a two lane road isn't normally safe since cars will do this to you.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

Well that's what it said in my Mass motorcycle manual......

I would unlearn that specific one.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ations+traffic

This is like real estate: location, location, location, but with much more awareness.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm just going by what the book says, doesn't the MSF teach this too to stay in the center of the lane because its the safest where everyone would see you? Also if someone tries cutting into my lane I have time to react with out getting hit. I think its just a judgement call and making sure I can adjust to my conditions.

No, the MSF class does not teach that.
The "if someone tries cutting into my lane" is one of those "myriad factors" I referred to. If you find someone in the lane beside you and you know you're in their blind (or cut-off) spot, reposition yourself. All conditions equal, the left side of the lane is best.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by ally99

All conditions equal, the left side of the lane is best.

Ok. I'll take your word. Can you elaborate on this though? And why not the right? I think this would also differ if you're on a highway or a street.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Brian

Ok. I'll take your word. Can you elaborate on this though? And why not the right? I think this would also differ if you're on a highway or a street.

Simple my good man. Mirrors only have so much view area and the blind spots of cars/trucks (stay out of them). Which is why they favor riding in the left part of the lane, your seen in the mirror of the car your following, your also seen by the oncoming car. I say that only because that is what they teach. Realistically though, ride like your never seen though.

Highway or city street, the preference is still the same. Left side of the lane and don't linger in blind spots too long. This is normally accomplished by going slightly faster than the flow of traffic.

[allanoue]

On the freeway I am in the fast lane normally and if the fast lane the right side is the place to be seen by the cars in the slow lane. If in the slow lane then I will be in the left side. That is why I like to say ride on the inside of your lane. Conditions from road and traffic and weather can change that.

Edit:
I like the inside also for when traffic goes from 80 to 0 suddenly, cars like to swerve to the outside into the gravel giving you extra room to stop next to them and more room for the car behind you to stop.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Simple my good man. Mirrors only have so much view area and the blind spots of cars/trucks (stay out of them). Which is why they favor riding in the left part of the lane, your seen in the mirror of the car your following, your also seen by the oncoming car. I say that only because that is what they teach. Realistically though, ride like your never seen though.

Highway or city street, the preference is still the same. Left side of the lane and don't linger in blind spots too long. This is normally accomplished by going slightly faster than the flow of traffic.

Great advice, thanks so much! Answered my original question 100%.

thanks everyone.

[csmith12]

Ah crap, that's right Al. It's better stated as the "inside" of your current lane. Then this begs the next question. What if there are 3 lanes and your in the middle? Left or right? If I find myself in a center lane, I am staying left until I can get out.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Ah crap, that's right Al. It's better stated as the "inside" of your current lane. Then this begs the next question. What if there are 3 lanes and your in the middle? Left or right? If I find myself in a center lane, I am staying left until I can get out.

I do not like the middle lane so I only make short visits to the middle lane and I favor the middle of the lane for the short visit.

[csmith12]

Same here, hence "until I can get out."

[Brian]

I hate the fact thinking this is possible of happening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSlW_xJMfJs

Is there any way to avoid something like this happening guys? I see the only option is to be watching the rear mirrors and speed out of the lane if you get the chance, but is that it?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

I hate the fact thinking this is possible of happening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSlW_xJMfJs

Is there any way to avoid something like this happening guys? I see the only option is to look into the rear mirrors and speed out of the lane if you get the chance but is that it?

Don't worry much about that accident, it only makes 2% of the statistical motorcycle accidents.

Stop at an angle respect to your lane, because you will have better mirror view of the car approaching (and won't become a sandwich if get hit), keep the transmission in first and get ready to hump forward and by the side of the car ahead (or between it and the next car), ........stay super-alert, ...............always, ..............moving or not.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Don't worry much about that accident, it only makes 2% of the statistical motorcycle accidents.

Stop at an angle respect to your lane, because you will have better mirror view of the car approaching (and won't become a sandwich if get hit), keep the transmission in first and get ready to hump forward and by the side of the car ahead (or between it and the next car), ........stay super-alert, ...............always, ..............moving or not.

Good stuff Hernan, lemme add detail to this.

Stop at an angle respect to your lane - your a wider visual target
Stop at an angle respect to your lane - your escape route is already planned ahead of time
Get ready to hump forward and by the side of the car ahead - the left side when possible
Get ready to hump forward and by the side of the car ahead - your escape route is already prepped for, as your hands will be on the bars ready for action

[alex.s]

i wrote out a really long, reasoned post that analyzed each riding position with respect to traffic and escape situations but its dry and uninteresting so i'm going to simplify it, or try to.


simply, don't be where other people are going to be. you have eyes, you have reasoning capabilities. see. understand what those around you are doing, where they want to go, and how they are planning on getting there. and then do not be there. this takes a lot of concentration. it takes a lot of moving around in your lane depending on situations. there is no single position that is correct to be in. it varies depending on what and who is around you.

some things to consider when picking a lane position
- what can YOU actually see -- partial obstructions just mean you think you know what is there. chances are something is hidden.
- who can see you -- if you're lucky enough to have people see you, chances are fairly good they'll try not to hit you.
- where can you go -- ie, how many exits do you have at that position that you can clearly see at least 100 feet down.
- most importantly, who wants to be there. -- not just cars, but what about the stuff on the side of the road? cars that want to open their doors? people working in the street or that want to cross?

don't be where other people are going to be.


riding in the center of the lane is pointless and has no advantages only disadvantages. alternating between inside and outside depending on situations is a nice compromise that lets you get the best of all worlds.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

Ok. I'll take your word. Can you elaborate on this though? And why not the right? I think this would also differ if you're on a highway or a street.

Sounds like everyone else beat me to it, but yeah, you're seen better by the person ahead of you in the left of the lane. It's where I'm typically the most comfortable when traffic is light or I'm just cruising. My actual goal is to stay the hell away from everyone. Of course, in traffic, you can only do so much to avoid folks, but keep away from them (as far as possible and at the most strategic angle for getting out of a threatening situation) as best you can.

Yes, it can vary on hwy vs street. It can vary in thousands of different conditions. Ride like you're invisible and stay the hell away from folks. Ride with this quote in mind: "Expect folks to act like a dumbass. Not only will you never be disappointed, you'll always be right." Prepare for them to do the most douchy, unexpected thing and be ready.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Good stuff Hernan, lemme add detail to this.......

Thanks, Chris

Same applies to sudden braking in heavy traffic: immediately after cars ahead start braking hard, look for a escape path, cover all the controls and (if you have time) check your mirrors assuming that the car/truck following you will fail stopping in time.

Originally Posted by alex.s

.............understand what those around you are doing, where they want to go, and how they are planning on getting there. and then do not be there. this takes a lot of concentration............don't be where other people are going to be...........

Please Brian, see this thread:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=121552

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

good vid hernan. this is why i never stop like that. i split most of the time. i know that's not an option in some states, but if i encountered situations like that i would definitely break the law to keep myself safer. its really unfortunate that motorcycle law in other states is written by people who don't understand motorcycle safety very well

in fact, i can recall a very specific instance of this. i was approaching stopped construction traffic and pulled into the center to split the two lanes. i was still wet then and didn't spend much attention on the mirrors so i didn't notice the guy coming up fast behind me. about a second after i moved over to begin splitting (there wasn't quite enough room 2 cars up so i was holding back for a second) BAM some little white car rear ends the car to my left, throwing the little cars brake light at me. scratched up the side of my bike and hurt my knee like a mother****er. but if i hadn't had been splitting i would have been rear ended with massive injuries.

Originally Posted by ally99

"Expect folks to act like a dumbass. Not only will you never be disappointed, you'll always be right." Prepare for them to do the most douchy, unexpected thing and be ready.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i split most of the time. i know that's not an option in some states...

It's not? hehe!

[Brian]

I don't know if you guys see that splitting can also be very dangerous. There are always people changing lanes and if someone doesn't see or hear you coming they'll commit to the turn. Yes I know, all and everything is potentially dangerous but why would the only reason the law doesn't want us to split is because were cutting in line? I don't think so.

I will definitely do more lane splitting if I have to and be ready to avoid these accidents from occuring, also I would rather be sided than hit from the back / front. I'm glad now that I have a loud exhaust, it will save me from potential accidents happening if I still had the stock on my 250.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm glad now that I have a loud exhaust, it will save me from potential accidents happening if I still had the stock on my 250.

Oh dear... this falls into the same category as being seen, but don't bet on it because the odds are not in your favor.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Oh dear... this falls into the same category as being seen, but don't bet on it because the odds are not in your favor.

Yes I'm aware. There are plenty of things we can do to prevent things like this from happening, doesn't mean it won't though.

Also, I don't like how you guys say to "expect the worst" or "think of everyone around you on the road like their idiots". It just isn't making me confident at all and what's the point of biking if we're not enjoying the thrill? Maybe I just sound a little.. suicidal.. but honestly right here typing on this computer there's a good chance of the roof collapsing and crushing me.

(I'm REALLY going to regret thinking like this if I ever get into a big accident ^ )

This is all just a learning experience for me right now, and I should probably listen to you guys rather myself.

[csmith12]

I didn't say expect the worst, at least not that I remember. I have always said before, if you ride with/while in fear, your doing it wrong.

[NevadaWolf]

There's a difference between expecting the worst and fearing the worst.

When i am out on the streets, I ride in a state of awareness but am mostly confident in my skills as a rider to handle most unexpected events. It takes practice and more practice to get to that point but most of us get there and we ride successfully and enjoyably every time.

The key is to just not assume that others will see you. Either they are not used to seeing motorcycles or are not consciously looking for them, something will keep drivers from seeing you. Will all drivers fail to see you, no. Most do. But you treat them all like they are the ones who do not by watching them closely if they are in a position to cause you harm.

I think that is the big difference with lane splitting. In CA, drivers should be aware that under certain circumstances it is legal. Usually in those circumstances its not practical for cars to be changing lanes (ie rush hour stalled traffic). If a driver is aware that its perfectly ok for a bike to be coming up on the side between them and another vehicle, then when it happens its not surprising and its just another day on the road.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Brian

Yes I'm aware. There are plenty of things we can do to prevent things like this from happening, doesn't mean it won't though.

Also, I don't like how you guys say to "expect the worst" or "think of everyone around you on the road like their idiots". It just isn't making me confident at all and what's the point of biking if we're not enjoying the thrill? Maybe I just sound a little.. suicidal.. but honestly right here typing on this computer there's a good chance of the roof collapsing and crushing me.

(I'm REALLY going to regret thinking like this if I ever get into a big accident ^ )

This is all just a learning experience for me right now, and I should probably listen to you guys rather myself.

riding a motorcycle on the street with cars is suicidal. it doesn't mean i wont do it. people tell me solo free climbing is suicidal. people tell me a lot of the things i do are stupid, dangerous, suicidal, childish wastes of time purely for enjoyment. what they don't realize is that i live my life to enjoy myself. i don't live my life for other people. i'm not here on this earth to entertain someone else. i'm here to entertain ME. so i do what i enjoy doing. risk can lead to danger, but it can also lead to great rewards.

try riding on the track, its nicer.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

I'm glad now that I have a loud exhaust, it will save me from potential accidents happening if I still had the stock on my 250.

Wut? oh yeah, loud pipes save lives. lol. Whew, yeah, that stock exhaust would've killed you.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Brian

Also, I don't like how you guys say to "expect the worst" or "think of everyone around you on the road like their idiots". It just isn't making me confident at all and what's the point of biking if we're not enjoying the thrill?

It depends on whether you want to live to enjoy the thrill for a long time. Expecting the worst basically means being prepared for anything. Do you see a car way ahead stopped ready to turn left? Expect them to do so in front of you. Are you riding behind another vehicle? Be ready for them to slam on brakes. Have your escape route planned. By "expect the worst", you train yourself to be a more defensive driver/rider, you are prepared for even the unexpected, and this in turn makes you a truly confident (and prepared) rider who enjoys the thrill even more because you are confident in your own abilities. Confidence is good, but it can also be your enemy if you have confidence without a defensive skills set.
So yeah, you truly do want to expect unexpected hazards. Plan for them, mentally prepare for them, and be ready to react.
Then take her to the track and learn what thrill REALLY feels like!

[Brian]

Originally Posted by ally99

Wut? oh yeah, loud pipes save lives. lol. Whew, yeah, that stock exhaust would've killed you.

Honestly I strongly believe it will save my life in the future. It's better than someone not hearing you as you zip down the road. People will recognize the sound of a motorcycle when they look for me as they see it, it's definitely far better than them not hearing anything and relying on visuals only.

Do you ever search for ambulances or cops as you're driving so you can get out of the way? No, you first hear them. I may not be as loud as a siren but the slip on I just put on my bike is bound to save my life countless times down the road, and I'm strong believing that.

Is a helmet bound to save my life if I take a hard fall? No, but we put them on to protect ourselves from that happening, just like modding the bike for a louder exhaust to prevent bad from happening (not everyone, the sweet sound is also a bonus). It's the same concept I don't see why everyone is so against the idea. I would like some explaining

Sure it's not foolproof, but are our helmets? Is all our gear going to protect us from if we weren't wearing gear? You just can't say it will definitely.

Originally Posted by ally99

It depends on whether you want to live to enjoy the thrill for a long time. Expecting the worst basically means being prepared for anything. Do you see a car way ahead stopped ready to turn left? Expect them to do so in front of you. Are you riding behind another vehicle? Be ready for them to slam on brakes. Have your escape route planned. By "expect the worst", you train yourself to be a more defensive driver/rider, you are prepared for even the unexpected, and this in turn makes you a truly confident (and prepared) rider who enjoys the thrill even more because you are confident in your own abilities. Confidence is good, but it can also be your enemy if you have confidence without a defensive skills set.
So yeah, you truly do want to expect unexpected hazards. Plan for them, mentally prepare for them, and be ready to react.
Then take her to the track and learn what thrill REALLY feels like!

This makes plenty of sense for me now. I think before I can make judgement I need to get out there and experience it. Which I sure have not yet done good sir. I haven't even taken my classes yet, I'm sure excited, though.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Brian

Honestly I strongly believe it will save my life in the future. It's better than someone not hearing you as you zip down the road. People will recognize the sound of a motorcycle when they look for me as they see it, it's definitely far better than them not hearing anything and relying on visuals only.

Do you ever search for ambulances or cops as you're driving so you can get out of the way? No, you first hear them. I may not be as loud as a siren but the slip on I just put on my bike is bound to save my life countless times down the road, and I'm strong believing that.

It doesn't matter how strongly you believe it. Riders with many more years under their belt all eventually realize its a false belief. You'll get there as well. All newbies put obnoxiously loud exhausts on their first streetbike. May as well hang a rabbits foot on your keychain for an equivalent amount of safety gained. Of course a rabbits foot doesn't annoy your neighbors and lead to those pesky anti-motorcycling laws quite as quickly.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Alex

It doesn't matter how strongly you believe it. Riders with many more years under their belt all eventually realize its a false belief. You'll get there as well. All newbies put obnoxiously loud exhausts on their first streetbike. May as well hang a rabbits foot on your keychain for an equivalent amount of safety gained. Of course a rabbits foot doesn't annoy your neighbors and lead to those pesky anti-motorcycling laws quite as quickly.

Did you read my reasoning behind it though? What good would it be for ambulances or police vehicles to be equipped with sirens?

If you were in a car with your windows rolled up would you be more aware of a motorcyclist who you can hear coming or one that just passed you that you had no idea was even in the area?

I know what you mean, but you can't compare that to a rabbits foot..