Most important attribute of a riding coach?

[JohnnyBravo]

Has anyone said a cutie with a booty yet?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

Has anyone said a cutie with a booty yet?

nope

if anything that would be detrimental to your learning though, you don't want to stare at your coach you want to look ahead where they're looking.

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by Sirref

nope

if anything that would be detrimental to your learning though, you don't want to stare at your coach you want to look ahead where they're looking.

So that's why I only learn where coaches booty looks the best you sir are a genius

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

Has anyone said a cutie with a booty yet?

that would be a distraction.

[JohnnyBravo]

Originally Posted by cbinker

that would be a distraction.

That is a Fact jack!!!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Thanks for your time and attention Misti. I am not directly asking about "steering" the bike. It was more of steering or guiding the rider in general. More so in the paddock, than anywhere else. I am not really asking about the "how" part either, it's a given that I know you can't answer that question. Lemme try to ask my question again in a different way. Are there any common clues in the paddock that give away a potential issue before it becomes a bigger problem on track?

My biggest issue as a coach so far is... when there are multiple riders in my paddock area wanting to go out, I need to pick the "right" rider at the "right time", if that makes any sense. Basically in the paddock, I need to make a read on the riders. Since I can't be there for everyone, I will need to defer some riders to another coach if warranted and work one on one with another.

I will be kinda blunt with ya. So far... I have encountered a rider that kept charging corners (almost crashed) no matter what I did unless I was in front of him. And 2 other riders crashed because I "may" have missed the signs of discomfort ahead of time while in the paddock (both were on their own on track at the time).

Now I know we can't prevent every crash, I am just making sure I am not missing the obvious ya know?

Hmmmm, that is hard. At CSS we get assigned our riders and only have 2-3 students to look out for each session out so it's a little bit different for us. However, if I had to choose what kinds of things to look out for in the paddock I'd say, attitude and nervousness. I will often work first with the student that seems the most nervous about going out on track. I want to make sure they are comfortable and I've identified any glaring problems right away before letting them off on their own.

After that I look for attitude, that guy/girl that thinks they've got a handle on everything and that they don't need much help, or the one that keeps asking about different, more advanced techniques.

It's pretty hard to identify riders before they head out on track though, I've had some crazy surprises, regular looking guys that I think will be average pace hit the track hauling. Or guys that I think will be fast that are super slow. You can't really tell.

Other than that I really like to listen to my students and question them on what I hear them say. I get pretty good at coaching people without even seeing them ride based on what I hear them say or on questions I ask them about their riding that lead me towards the problems that they are having on track.

Hope that helps

[csmith12]

I see, thanks again Misti. I got me a metal list going now.

Underconfidence
Overconfidence
Questions/comments that are beyond skill level
Questions/comments that are scattered or do not connect with each other
Questions/comments about bike/setup problems or riding/track conditions
Overall attitude
And.... the quiet ones

Originally Posted by Misti

It's pretty hard to identify riders before they head out on track though, I've had some crazy surprises, regular looking guys that I think will be average pace hit the track hauling. Or guys that I think will be fast that are super slow. You can't really tell.

Seen that a few times myself. From the super slow/cautious, to the rider that shakes it off in a few sessions in novice and then starts pushing midpack intermediate while riding pretty well and comfortable. Interesting stuff....

[Hero Danny]

I didn't read all the posts, but the first 20 or so not a single person mentioned positive reinforcement. I like a teacher that will point out what you did RIGHT and then applaud you for it and make you feel good and then you'll continue to do it. Then they can add a few criticizing comments in between.

[Panda]

being easily frustrated

[csmith12]

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I didn't read all the posts, but the first 20 or so not a single person mentioned positive reinforcement. I like a teacher that will point out what you did RIGHT and then applaud you for it and make you feel good and then you'll continue to do it. Then they can add a few criticizing comments in between.

Danny, this isn't against you directly, so please take no offense.


What an interesting summary of the generation gap, specifically how teaching styles have changed in such a short amount of time and where the focus has shifted to.

Which of course goes back to the earlier comment of having an instructor know what teaching style/method works best for the student. But that is also huge upon the student to communicate how they are going to get the best value out of the session.

When I was on the track and had a coach follow me or lead me and the summarize what happened, I really wanted the critique. What I do wrong or what can be improved (two different things, by the way) was what really helped me improve my riding.

When I took a street course and had the instructor talking to me at the time, that REALLY helped as I was able to make corrections with each and every corner until I got the technique down. He would comment on whatever wasn't right, offer a suggestion, then I would put it into practice the next turn. That was perfect for me.

For me, hearing what is wrong or hearing what can be improved is what I seek out coaching for. If I do something right, I only want it brought up to compare against what is wrong so I can see the difference and improve upon what needs work.

[Hero Danny]

@NevadaWolf

No offense taken.

I obviously care about knowing what i'm doing wrong. But I also like to hear what I am doing right as well. I believe in positive reinforcement for every aspect of life. Punishment vs reward and reward is more effective.

I'm a college student and I get teachers who grade my papers, I HATE it when then just write what I did wrong. I really like it when they put comments saying "well put!" or "Great idea!" etc. There should be a balance... in my opinion and I feel like a lot of people lack that key balance.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Other than that I really like to listen to my students and question them on what I hear them say. I get pretty good at coaching people without even seeing them ride based on what I hear them say or on questions I ask them about their riding that lead me towards the problems that they are having on track.

Somewhat unrelated but I ran into an issue near the end of my trip to jennings gp a week and a half ago. Basically in the higher speed corners I was running into chatter and grip issues where I felt like the front tire would break traction. In one case the front actually did break traction a bit and I rode off the track as a result. It was worse in the high speed right handed corner (it's a lefty track) we diagnosed the issue as tire and soft suspension but I'm wondering if there are any potential problems with my riding that could cause/solve the issue as it wasn't occurring every single lap, though the likelihood of it occurring increased significantly if I were to brake in between the #1 and #2 brake markers instead of the #3 marker. The problem would occur just after I completed my throttle roll on and had the throttle pinned.

I'm planning on switching the suspension and wheels for better grip and stiffer forks but I feel as though it may have something to do with a rider skill/rider error that I don't really realize that I'm doing.

[csmith12]

Ben, I asked you to drop a lb or 2 in pressure to give you a "tangible reason" to relax, it wasn't gunna hurt either way at the pace we were riding. I then asked how you felt the change was? If I remember right, it was somewhat better, but it was your first day at a new track 1k miles from home too. So I expected a certain amount mental/riding conflicts. I get em too, especially going to the track alone or with just Jade.

From riding with you and to help Misti with your question;

The good:
You consistently have good throttle rolls
You are not too tight on the bars that I was able to see
You seem to be looking at the right places at the right times, the meatballs make that pretty easy at jennings
You don't consistently charge corners
You don't turn in too early

The areas of improvement:
You sometimes get off the seat a bit late
You sometimes make mid corner steering corrections
There is much to visual skills you can learn and work on
Faith in your ability to slow the bike quickly (ie braking)

Bluntness:
Your biggest weakness is you "want it" too much which makes you "try too hard" and ride tight (I don't mean too tight on the bars) instead of loose and flowing, I can see the tenseness in your shoulders in the pics and video. You know how everyone there came back from a session, removed their helmet and was smiling ear to ear? Do you feel the same way after a session? Your doing great and focused on skillz, even earning my trust to get close to you mid corner. A complete 180 turn in your riding since your first posted track day, but... don't forget to have fun and relax along the way. Ya know?

Subtleness:
Your front setup is weak to be pushing your luck on the track at a pace beyond its ability to keep it's midstroke range. Between one lap to another, your pace through any given corner can be different. For example; lap 1, turn 8 @43mph and all is well, lap 3, turn 8 @51mph and it may not feel good at all. Since your not paying attention to your speedo, it's easy to miss that you're going faster than before. And simply put, you may have just pushed beyond your bike's setup/tire/grip/rider combo. I super rarely blame it on the bike, but I do believe you have to keep the bike's setup better (more capable) than the rider whenever possible. In general, the bike should be an "enabler" not a limiting factor.

Now, out of the list I gave you, which could cause traction issues?

[Sirref]

Actually you had me increase the tire pressure a bit since it was a bit too low to start. We went from 19lbs in the front and 30lbs in the rear to 27lbs front and rear. That made a pretty big positive difference in front end feel.

Mid-corner steering corrections would probably do the trick to lose grip on the front since it'd be asking for more grip where there is none to ask for.

I admit I do "want it" quite a bit but I am enjoying myself in the process. I could stand to loosen up a bit and enjoy myself a bit more, but that's a general personality trait that holds up in other areas of my life as well.

Considering that I don't even have a speedo and the fact that the issues only popped up on the 3rd day as well as the lap I followed you on the first day it's possible that I over-rode the tire/suspension combo but I do feel that it was just as much me as the bike. We'll see how much of a difference the 17" DRII tires + stiffer forks makes.

Thinking about it I did have a tendency to alter the line slightly between 13+14 around the time I would finish my roll on and that's where I was having the biggest issue with front end feel/chatter/traction loss

[csmith12]

Ah right! 19lbs.... hahahahahhaha wow, that could have been so much worse.

Tip for your next trip to Jennings then (maybe in Feb ).

Turns 13 and 14 are two separate turns until you get your pace up a bit more. Once the pace increases, braking, turn in points are adjusted and you visually figure out the corner(s) in your head (make other reference points that work for you), then 13 & 14 blend together into one large line through them both.

Until then, you turn for 13 and complete the turn. Stand the bike up a bit and turn again for 14. You can also hook turn for 14 if that feels better for you.

[csmith12]

Oh! I also love how honest your being with yourself. It's a credit to your riding.

Edit: Google up or ask what the negative aspects are to "adding lean + throttle at the same time".

[Sirref]

I don't think I'll be able to make it in Feb, time will tell though. I'll definitely keep that in mind next time I head down to jennings though.

A hook turn is where you have the bike leaned over already and you hang off more to steer the bike just that little bit without using the bars right?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

A hook turn is where you have the bike leaned over already and you hang off more to steer the bike just that little bit without using the bars right?

At a high level yes, but I can't explain it any better than what you can see/read it in the TOTWII. If you were to watch the video, it is explained the the context of double apex corners. I however like the term "linked" corners. ie. where the "rider's preferred line" connects the corners together in such a way that a steering/line adjustment is needed while leaned over. There are a few ways to handle it and the hook turn is but one of them.

[csmith12]

One more nugget!

Before you get into the hook turn, which is a pretty advanced skill in itself. Let's make sure you got a good handle on the basic art of turning. Next time we are out on the track together, we are going to focus on countersteering. Sure it sounds soooooooo novice right, I agree. One of my biggest breakthroughs as a rider came when I realized just how effective a "100% committed" countersteer/quick flick to set my line was. I stopped GUESSING what my bike was going to do and TOLD my bike what it was going to do.

Food for thought....

[Sirref]

I hadn't realized that would be something good to work on because it's so basic but thinking about it I do spend a bit of time wondering about my steering, which is likely where that mid-corner steering correction comes from. If I can improve my visual skills at the same time and be able to better pinpoint the best possible line before I turn in and know exactly how much steering input it would take to ride that line I can see how my riding would be much smoother.

edit:

I think I may very well be guilty of this

Link to original page on YouTube.


edit2:

been doing some light reading, it's definitely me that's causing it. The soft forks are just magnifying the problem and causing me to notice it, I'm still planning to switch to newgen tech for the tires though. Basically I'm doing 3 things wrong (combining reading and watching my video)

1. I'm moving over when I look, instead of doing a two-step look then turn I'm just swerving slightly then turning in early anyway, so I'm turning in early and I'm already closer to the inside than I should be. This is causing me to run wide.
2. I'm using slightly too much throttle too quickly in an attempt to make up for lost corner speed due to braking early (this is really 2 in 1) The rear is fine with it but the front is not.
3. I'm closing in to the end of the corner and realizing that I'm running wider than I wanted to because of errors #1&2 and tipping it in just that little bit more.

Looking back at my crash at shenandoah in July this sequence of events, combined with bad body positioning which I have since improved drastically, is exactly how the crash happened with the exception that I was quite a bit more hamfisted at that moment so I lost the rear and not the front.

[csmith12]

Man.... I just watched your day 3 vid. Judging from that video and the time I was behind you, there is little chance of you convincing me that you're consistently turning in early. In fact you late apex most of the back section. You got 5 or 6 track days past you now, you're doing great. Your overall pace has increased considerably and you got a knee down even.... Celebrate man!!!! Your doing everything that a coach would want you to do and more.

If you want something to work on;
You got a bit of "lazy steering" going on but it aint too bad really. (I would bet you're seeing the lazy steering as the early turn in and fyi, lazy steering is common in 13-14 )
Find some visual markers and hit them EVERY time...
Don't let the rider in front of you... yea that guy... don't let his riding leak into yours.

And from the vid, how in the world did that gent crash on the entrance to turn 7? That seems like a strange place.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Man.... I just watched your day 3 vid. Judging from that video and the time I was behind you, there is little chance of you convincing me that you're consistently turning in late. In fact you late apex most of the back section. You got 5 or 6 track days past you now, you're doing great. Your overall pace has increased considerably and you got a knee down even.... Celebrate man!!!! Your doing everything that a coach would want you to do and more.

If you want something to work on;
You got a bit of "lazy steering" going on but it aint too bad really. (I would bet you're seeing the lazy steering as the early turn in and fyi, lazy steering is common in 13-14 )
Find some visual markers and hit them EVERY time...
Don't let the rider in front of you... yea that guy... don't let his riding leak into yours.

And from the vid, how in the world did that gent crash on the entrance to turn 7? That seems like a strange place.

So I'm actually turning in almost right, just with some lazy steering to clean up that could be affecting my lines a bit and I should be looking for more consistency.

Watch 5:37 of that video, the crash happened the exact same way. I was intending to pass there into 7. Had I been on a 675 daytona I'd have been the victim of that crash where the ducati rider swooped from right to left in one quick unpredictable motion. The ducati rider hit the triumph's brake lever causing him to endo very painfully.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

So I'm actually turning in almost right, just with some lazy steering to clean up that could be affecting my lines a bit and I should be looking for more consistency.

Spot on! The end result of turning in too early and a lazy steer rate is the same post apex... running wide and steering corrections.

Originally Posted by Sirref

Watch 5:37 of that video, the crash happened the exact same way. I was intending to pass there into 7. Had I been on a 675 daytona I'd have been the victim of that crash where the ducati rider swooped from right to left in one quick unpredictable motion. The ducati rider hit the triumph's brake lever causing him to endo very painfully.

Ah... just like the swoopy lines we chatted about. Told ya that intersecting lines are dangerous...

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I see, thanks again Misti. I got me a metal list going now.

Underconfidence
Overconfidence
Questions/comments that are beyond skill level
Questions/comments that are scattered or do not connect with each other
Questions/comments about bike/setup problems or riding/track conditions
Overall attitude
And.... the quiet ones



Seen that a few times myself. From the super slow/cautious, to the rider that shakes it off in a few sessions in novice and then starts pushing midpack intermediate while riding pretty well and comfortable. Interesting stuff....

Excellent, it's good to have a list of things to watch out for I also watch out for the rider that improves very quickly- those guys that start off slow and cautious and suddenly do a massive jump in speed in the third session, or after lunch (this is common). They get excited, they are back on the track, they are wanting to try out all their new techniques but not quite ready for it if you know what I mean. Sometimes I just slow guys down because I feel like they have made too much of a speed jump and that makes me nervous. Almost everyone I have done this with has thanked me because they didn't realize they were even riding faster and they felt good knowing that I was looking out for them with their best interests (not crashing) in mind.

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

I didn't read all the posts, but the first 20 or so not a single person mentioned positive reinforcement. I like a teacher that will point out what you did RIGHT and then applaud you for it and make you feel good and then you'll continue to do it. Then they can add a few criticizing comments in between.

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

Danny, this isn't against you directly, so please take no offense.


What an interesting summary of the generation gap, specifically how teaching styles have changed in such a short amount of time and where the focus has shifted to.

Which of course goes back to the earlier comment of having an instructor know what teaching style/method works best for the student. But that is also huge upon the student to communicate how they are going to get the best value out of the session.

When I was on the track and had a coach follow me or lead me and the summarize what happened, I really wanted the critique. What I do wrong or what can be improved (two different things, by the way) was what really helped me improve my riding.

When I took a street course and had the instructor talking to me at the time, that REALLY helped as I was able to make corrections with each and every corner until I got the technique down. He would comment on whatever wasn't right, offer a suggestion, then I would put it into practice the next turn. That was perfect for me.

For me, hearing what is wrong or hearing what can be improved is what I seek out coaching for. If I do something right, I only want it brought up to compare against what is wrong so I can see the difference and improve upon what needs work.

Good points. I think this is something that a good coach needs to keep in mind, that every student is different and that everyone needs a different kind of focus in order to do well. Sometimes I have students that crumble if I don't give them enough positive reinforcement or if I point out anything that they are doing wrong and sometimes I have the opposite kind of student that wants me to cut the positive crap and lay into them about what they are doing wrong. I try to read my students to see what kind of communication they prefer and roll with it.

I remember one student was getting frustrated that I was telling him he was doing a good job in corner x and when I asked him where he thought he was doing well he said, "everywhere, I'm doing the technique right, I want something more advanced." So I said, "so, you're Valentino Rossi then? You're turning the bike as fast as he does and rolling on the gas as hard?" That got his attention and he was cool with admitting that he could do better and making a plan with me to get it done. :dance cool: I think a good mix of positive reinforcement with mention of where improvements could be made is the idea.

Originally Posted by Sirref

Somewhat unrelated but I ran into an issue near the end of my trip to jennings gp a week and a half ago. Basically in the higher speed corners I was running into chatter and grip issues where I felt like the front tire would break traction. In one case the front actually did break traction a bit and I rode off the track as a result. It was worse in the high speed right handed corner (it's a lefty track) we diagnosed the issue as tire and soft suspension but I'm wondering if there are any potential problems with my riding that could cause/solve the issue as it wasn't occurring every single lap, though the likelihood of it occurring increased significantly if I were to brake in between the #1 and #2 brake markers instead of the #3 marker. The problem would occur just after I completed my throttle roll on and had the throttle pinned.

I'm planning on switching the suspension and wheels for better grip and stiffer forks but I feel as though it may have something to do with a rider skill/rider error that I don't really realize that I'm doing.

First of all I think it is awesome that you are really looking at your own riding and how that might play with your suspension to cause or affect handling. Most people go right to blaming the bike but I love how you are willing to take a good look at your own riding.

From what you say above, it probably has something to do with extra body movements that you might be making (when you are hanging off the bike and how stable you are on the bike), how quickly you are turning the bike and your throttle control through the corner.

I just read more of the thread and saw your comments below...

Originally Posted by Sirref

I hadn't realized that would be something good to work on because it's so basic but thinking about it I do spend a bit of time wondering about my steering, which is likely where that mid-corner steering correction comes from. If I can improve my visual skills at the same time and be able to better pinpoint the best possible line before I turn in and know exactly how much steering input it would take to ride that line I can see how my riding would be much smoother.

edit:

I think I may very well be guilty of this

Link to original page on YouTube.


edit2:

been doing some light reading, it's definitely me that's causing it. The soft forks are just magnifying the problem and causing me to notice it, I'm still planning to switch to newgen tech for the tires though. Basically I'm doing 3 things wrong (combining reading and watching my video)

1. I'm moving over when I look, instead of doing a two-step look then turn I'm just swerving slightly then turning in early anyway, so I'm turning in early and I'm already closer to the inside than I should be. This is causing me to run wide.
2. I'm using slightly too much throttle too quickly in an attempt to make up for lost corner speed due to braking early (this is really 2 in 1) The rear is fine with it but the front is not.
3. I'm closing in to the end of the corner and realizing that I'm running wider than I wanted to because of errors #1&2 and tipping it in just that little bit more.

Looking back at my crash at shenandoah in July this sequence of events, combined with bad body positioning which I have since improved drastically, is exactly how the crash happened with the exception that I was quite a bit more hamfisted at that moment so I lost the rear and not the front.

Ok, so you have a few things that you are doing that are causing the handling problems you mentioned and while I agree that all of them may be contributing in some way I think you need to focus on ONE of those things to start with.

If I was your coach I would have you focus on the two step visual technique where you look into the corner and spot your apex point BEFORE you actually turn the bike. What this will do is help you have a specific point to aim for mid corner which will automatically enable you to turn the bike quicker and with more accuracy then if you just looked and turned at the same time. Does that make sense?

By getting your bike turned quicker will then enable you to roll on the gas sooner so that you aren't "making up for lost time" by whacking the throttle on or dealing with mid corner steering corrections because you will have a more predictable and consistent line.

I think if you work on your visual skills first and look into the corner before you actually turn the bike you will notice a big difference in your overall riding and many of the problems you listed above will improve.

Let me know what you think and how it goes

[Sirref]

I think that advice applies to me quite a bit, I attempt to use the 2 step already however when I use it I tend to drift a little bit to the inside of the corner so what I need to work on there is to look without going and then turn my steering motion into one clean steering movement.

From the looks of it both of you have similar advice and my root problem can be found very early on in the corner. I believe by cleaning up the early turn in and creating more confidence with my visual skills and ability to accurately steer my motorcycle I should be able to be smoother through the corner as well as be able to accelerate out of the corner more rather than be messing with an extra steering correction. I'd be effectively lapping faster and riding safer at the same time. I don't believe that I'm creating a large amount of extra body movement mid-corner but I can't know that for sure without a forward facing rear-cam to focus on my body positioning. I'll keep that in mind the next time I hit the track though.

[csmith12]

Ben, you got the steering aim of a cross-eye armadillo hahahahhahah jk man... but was fun to type.

But we are gunna fix ya up to where your are precise as a space shuttle engineer responsible for getting monkeys to da moon without shattin' themselves in their own suits.

[Sirref]

I get the feeling that the second half of that was fun to type as well

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I think that advice applies to me quite a bit, I attempt to use the 2 step already however when I use it I tend to drift a little bit to the inside of the corner so what I need to work on there is to look without going and then turn my steering motion into one clean steering movement.

From the looks of it both of you have similar advice and my root problem can be found very early on in the corner. I believe by cleaning up the early turn in and creating more confidence with my visual skills and ability to accurately steer my motorcycle I should be able to be smoother through the corner as well as be able to accelerate out of the corner more rather than be messing with an extra steering correction. I'd be effectively lapping faster and riding safer at the same time. I don't believe that I'm creating a large amount of extra body movement mid-corner but I can't know that for sure without a forward facing rear-cam to focus on my body positioning. I'll keep that in mind the next time I hit the track though.

Here is a simple question. Do you have a very specific reference point for your tun in and apex in the corners you are struggling with?

M

[Sirref]

Actually the corners in which I had the most issues were the corners in which I changed my turn in point the most, the apex at jennings is very easy to be consistent with due to the "meatballs" they put at every apex.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Someone who has had to learn the skill themselves is a must. People who are naturally skilled at something are terrible teachers because they don't know how to help. Someone who has had to teach themselves a skill will be a more competent teacher because they already know how to put the skill into thoughts and words

This isn't entirely true, in my experience. It is more common though. Most people who are skilled at something naturally, often have to be trained or taught to be able to impart that skill/knowledge to others though.

Most of the comments in this thread are applicable to just about any kind of teaching. I am currently tutoring a high school student in physics, and I try to do all the good things mentioned here.

[csmith12]

Interesting Lane, I have had the exact opposite experience with those who are naturally talented. But then again, I guess my low bar for communication skills could be higher than the average.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Actually the corners in which I had the most issues were the corners in which I changed my turn in point the most, the apex at jennings is very easy to be consistent with due to the "meatballs" they put at every apex.

Ok, so the apex is easy to be consistent with but you were finding that your turn in point was changing in the turns you were having the most issue with? What if you just concentrated on looking to the APEX (never mind your turn in point for now). As you are approaching the corner you try to look to the apex, the very specific spot you want the bike to end up....what could that help you with?

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

Ok, so the apex is easy to be consistent with but you were finding that your turn in point was changing in the turns you were having the most issue with? What if you just concentrated on looking to the APEX (never mind your turn in point for now). As you are approaching the corner you try to look to the apex, the very specific spot you want the bike to end up....what could that help you with?

That's largely what I'm doing, looking at the apex. Part of the problem is that sometimes I end up running wide on the exit and need to roll off slightly when I should be accelerating to tip it in a little bit more again. My entire focus is on the apex and not the turn in point/exit. I'm attempting to do the two step for the most part but am failing to set appropriate lines through the corner that allows me to carry my momentum through the corner and power out of the corner. This steering correction is causing problems. Thinking about where it is the worst I am only rolling off slightly between 13-14 before tipping back in for 14 at jennings gp when the line is off. Turn 8 is bad as well but that's because the line for turn 7 tends to be off occasionally.

Largely I may need to be thinking farther ahead than I am since the thing that is similar with these corners is the fact that they are consecutive corners where the first one significantly affects the second one.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

That's largely what I'm doing, looking at the apex. Part of the problem is that sometimes I end up running wide on the exit and need to roll off slightly when I should be accelerating to tip it in a little bit more again. My entire focus is on the apex and not the turn in point/exit. I'm attempting to do the two step for the most part but am failing to set appropriate lines through the corner that allows me to carry my momentum through the corner and power out of the corner. This steering correction is causing problems. Thinking about where it is the worst I am only rolling off slightly between 13-14 before tipping back in for 14 at jennings gp when the line is off. Turn 8 is bad as well but that's because the line for turn 7 tends to be off occasionally.

Largely I may need to be thinking farther ahead than I am since the thing that is similar with these corners is the fact that they are consecutive corners where the first one significantly affects the second one.

OK, let's back it up a bit. It sounds like you may be turning in too early. What happens when you turn the bike too early, and what is the solution?

[alex.s]

start sliding the rear tire and let it hook back up near the apex?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

start sliding the rear tire and let it hook back up near the apex?

Your not gunna like her answer to this.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Misti

OK, let's back it up a bit. It sounds like you may be turning in too early. What happens when you turn the bike too early, and what is the solution?

you run wide, turn in later in the first place

the solution when running wide is to roll off the throttle to tighten up the turn which is far from ideal and can result in losing the front. Leaning the body more off the bike to force the bike to go slightly tighter could work as well but it's still not a situation you want to be in.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Sirref

you run wide, turn in later in the first place

the solution when running wide is to roll off the throttle to tighten up the turn which is far from ideal and can result in losing the front. Leaning the body more off the bike to force the bike to go slightly tighter could work as well but it's still not a situation you want to be in.

if you are already at max lean for the speed, i don't think letting the throttle off will help anything quickly enough. if you wanted to take this route and you actually needed to do something about going wide (ie so wide you are going to run off the track) i think maybe you would be better off standing it up part way and applying brakes before putting it back down... but you would need a lot of time for that though. a full second minimum. if you're already past the apex and about to run off like maybe you slid a few feet and now you're pushing way wide... i don't know if there is really much you can do aside from getting that hook in body lower or run off and try to bring it back in. if it was me and i was max lean already and the option for running off is simply not there then i would push it into the ground. you can still keep it going in the direction you want even if its crashing in that direction. i would rather lowside in the road than run straight off a cliff. plus who knows, maybe you'll marquez it. then again, maybe you'll simo it.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Sirref

you run wide, turn in later in the first place

the solution when running wide is to roll off the throttle to tighten up the turn which is far from ideal and can result in losing the front. Leaning the body more off the bike to force the bike to go slightly tighter could work as well but it's still not a situation you want to be in.

Yes. If you turn the bike in too early then you early apex and run wide. The solution is to turn in later but sometimes no matter how many times you tell yourself to turn in later, you continue to turn the bike in early. Why do you think that is?

What things can you do to help you push your turn in point a little later or deeper?