Cornering

[Liber]

I realized something while I was out this past weekend. Though I always roll on after entering the turn, I realized that modulating throttle in the turn determined my course just as much as leaning. If I got too close to the center line, a little throttle on pulls me back into the proper lane position and I feel I have MORE control.

Ironically, in a turn, I feel like I have more control with the throttle than I ever would with the brake. I think I have a small fear of using the rear-brake(too many high side videos watched), only using it to supplement a pull on the front brake for a short stop.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Liber

Ironically, in a turn, I feel like I have more control with the throttle than I ever would with the brake.

That's because you do. Once the bike is leaned over, you are actually steering with the rear tire. It's funny, I have been re-reading my Keith Code books, and seeing the chapter that covers this after having real world experience to analyze it I see how true it is.

Just YouTube someone racing and when they come off the corner hard and wheelie, you can see the bike holding the lean angle that was previously dialed in.

You can certainly still use the bars/clip-ons to adjust your lean mid-corner, but one and done should be how you enter a corner, finishing it up with the throttle.

[csmith12]

This video explains it all.... (don't let the name of the vid fool you)

Link to original page on YouTube.

Pay attention to 1:44 (the science behind what is going on) & 3:35

And how it relates to this thread 4:30 (roll off, repoint, roll on) You WILL go wide during roll off, make sure you have enough room!

I am currently practicing these skills.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

That's because you do. Once the bike is leaned over, you are actually steering with the rear tire. It's funny, I have been re-reading my Keith Code books, and seeing the chapter that covers this after having real world experience to analyze it I see how true it is.

Just YouTube someone racing and when they come off the corner hard and wheelie, you can see the bike holding the lean angle that was previously dialed in.

You can certainly still use the bars/clip-ons to adjust your lean mid-corner, but one and done should be how you enter a corner, finishing it up with the throttle.

True true. Good throttle control, meaning "rolling on the gas evenly, consistently and smoothly throughout the turn" not only provides a stable bike but also ensures CONSISTENT LINES. Once you set the lean angle of your bike (provided you have good throttle control) your bike will continue on that same line until you steer out of it. Rolling OFF the gas mid corner will cause you to run WIDER, hence the reason we suggest maintaining good throttle control even when you feel like you are going too fast in a corner. If you roll off the throttle you risk running WIDER, you also transfer weight back onto the front tire (which is only designed to handle 30-40% of the cornering load).

While it is important to know what to do in a situation where you have made a mistake (ie. entering into a turn too hot) it is also important to learn how to avoid making that same mistake again.

So how do you learn to set your entry speeds correctly for a corner? How do you do this on a corner you have never seen?

Misti

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by Misti

True true. Good throttle control, meaning "rolling on the gas evenly, consistently and smoothly throughout the turn" not only provides a stable bike but also ensures CONSISTENT LINES. Once you set the lean angle of your bike (provided you have good throttle control) your bike will continue on that same line until you steer out of it. Rolling OFF the gas mid corner will cause you to run WIDER, hence the reason we suggest maintaining good throttle control even when you feel like you are going too fast in a corner. If you roll off the throttle you risk running WIDER, you also transfer weight back onto the front tire (which is only designed to handle 30-40% of the cornering load).

Misti

Misti, something is terribly wrong here. Cutting the throttle by itself can't make you go wide.
Take a tire, and roll it. It will go straight, while it has enough speed to keep it straight, and as it has no power of its own, it will slow down gradually and lean to one side. As it looses more speed, lean will increase, and radius of the turns it is traveling will decrease. So it will converge to the center point in a short spiral. Eventually it will loose enough speed to lean more and eventually drop to the ground to the most stable position.

I think that same will happen to the motorcycle, if you cut the power while leaned over. Radius of the curve you are traveling at will decrease, if you don't move the bars.
The problem is that this will happen too slow. Bike will not loose enough speed in time to make the turn, so you will go wide.
The point is, you don't go wide because you released the throttle, you go wide because you didn't push the inside bar enough.
These 2 normally come together when a survival reaction kicks in.

This is consistent with the fact that the mass distribution alone is not enough to effectively steer a motorcycle, as it is shown in Keith Code's book and film. (the bike does change direction, but not fast enough)
It is also consistent with the fact that you release the throttle while turning the bike, and apply it only after the bike is turned.

I agree completely with the rest of the text.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Misti, something is terribly wrong here. Cutting the throttle by itself can't make you go wide.
Take a tire, and roll it. It will go straight, while it has enough speed to keep it straight, and as it has no power of its own, it will slow down gradually and lean to one side. As it looses more speed, lean will increase, and radius of the turns it is traveling will decrease. So it will converge to the center point in a short spiral. Eventually it will loose enough speed to lean more and eventually drop to the ground to the most stable position.

It is also consistent with the fact that you release the throttle while turning the bike, and apply it only after the bike is turned.

Actually, yes, cutting the throttle WILL make you run wide. Your illustration of the behavior of a rolling tire is correct, but you forget that when the tires are part of your bike, there are different physics and dynamics to consider. Imagine your illustration above, but you have 2 wheels connected to ends of a pole. Do you think both would still work together to decrease the radius of your turn? In addition, as soon as you cut the throttle, your bike is engine braking. Braking runs you wide. You want nothing to do with any kind of braking once in a corner unless you are a pro and understand trail-braking.

I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well.

Just some thoughts to consider.

[JeffM]

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by ally99

Actually, yes, cutting the throttle WILL make you run wide. Your illustration of the behavior of a rolling tire is correct, but you forget that when the tires are part of your bike, there are different physics and dynamics to consider. Imagine your illustration above, but you have 2 wheels connected to ends of a pole. Do you think both would still work together to decrease the radius of your turn? In addition, as soon as you cut the throttle, your bike is engine braking. Braking runs you wide. You want nothing to do with any kind of braking once in a corner unless you are a pro and understand trail-braking.

I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well.

Just some thoughts to consider.

I completely support the claimed effects on the suspension and front-rear tire pressure to the ground.
By turning the bike, I meant initiating a turn, leaning the bike from perpendicular to whatever angle. Once leaned (the bike is traveling along the arc you want it to), you apply the throttle easily.

Let us test the theories, by traveling slow enough, without danger of loosing grip because of bad front-rear mass distribution.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Actually, yes, cutting the throttle WILL make you run wide. Your illustration of the behavior of a rolling tire is correct, but you forget that when the tires are part of your bike, there are different physics and dynamics to consider. Imagine your illustration above, but you have 2 wheels connected to ends of a pole. Do you think both would still work together to decrease the radius of your turn? In addition, as soon as you cut the throttle, your bike is engine braking. Braking runs you wide. You want nothing to do with any kind of braking once in a corner unless you are a pro and understand trail-braking.

I'm also not sure I understand the 2nd quote from you (above). You should NOT release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn. Releasing the throttle engine brakes which sends more weight to the front of your bike which can upset the suspension. Under braking (engine braking included) and with a trailing throttle the weight of the bike tends towards the front and loads the front tire so that it’s more likely to lose traction in a corner. The tire has to work harder and the suspension becomes compressed and can’t deal with bumps well.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Good explanation and yes you are right when you say that chopping the throttle WILL make the bike run wide. Keith Code calls this a survival reaction. When we go into a turn and fear that we are going to fast or fear that we are running wide we instinctively want to chop the throttle which actually makes the situation worse. Rolling off or chopping the throttle tends to make the bike run wider and I appreciate your exact definition of why that is so.

As for the second part of your post, I just want to clarify one thing that seems a little confusing and it may just be semantics. You say that you should "Not release the throttle while turning the bike. Your bike is more stable under slight throttle. You want to be rolling on the throttle throughout the turn. Do all of your braking, set your line/body position just before the actual turn, and then roll on steadily and consistently throughout the turn."

This all sounds correct but I just want to clarify that the throttle should be OFF when actually turning the bike and then cracked on ASAP once the bike is at the lean angle you desire. Then it should be rolled on evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn as you describe. You want to make sure that your turning/steering is DONE before you crack on the gas, so essentially when you turn the throttle is off. You get all your braking, downshifting etc done before turn in, turn the bike and THEN get on the gas.

This is one of the reason's that your rate of turning (how quickly you get your bike to the lean angle you desire) is so important because the sooner you get your turning DONE the faster you can roll on the gas.

Cheers,
Misti

[Xoulrath]

Misti, great information. Though I would point out that some bikes are incapable of having the throttle off as you enter the turn. My wife's TU is one of them. When riding the bike hard, which is amazingly entertaining, going off the throttle before a turn would kill what little speed is built up.

I am not being contrary. I fully support your statement, and ride like that myself. I am just pointing out on the really small bikes with lackluster power, well there is no power to roll on. If you let off the throttle you slow yourself before you hit mid-corner.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by oroboros

Looking forward to seeing you out there ally.
Posted via Mobile Device

We're heading up there next weekend spending one night at the Iron Horse and playing around on the Dragon and the Cherohala, and then taking the BRP up to Ashville.

[oroboros]

Ack! The one weekend I'll be out of town :/
Great itinerary though. The BRP out of the park is a nice stretch. I just walked in from an early AM ride at the gap. (Nice and empty)
Have a great time.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by oroboros

I just walked in from an early AM ride at the gap. (Nice and empty)

I would imagine that is the best time to go. I used to be interested in taking a trip up there but I have a friend who has been a couple of times and he said it was fun, but do to the cops and the traffic (mostly the squid riders) that it wasn't as good as some make it out to be. He told me that our regular haunting grounds are every bit as good in terms of fun and challenge.

The only problem with the roads we ride is the condition of some of them. In addition, there seems to be gravel all over the place sometimes. I think it must be from four-wheelers as we live in a somewhat rural area.

And I get them confused: BRP or Cherohala, which is the Skyway? And do you know which one was on Top Gear? Beautiful area, but 400 miles at 35-45 mph? No thanks.

[oroboros]

I don't know where you are but there is a reason why people come from all over to run the gap. I agree with much of what you are saying. I do not go when it is busy. It is hardly worth my time. It is also dangerous. I have seen really bad riding and driving there. I have also seen some really skilled riders as well. The motard guys are craziest! That's a sweeping generalization but damn, they go fast. Both the Cherohala and Blue Ridge Pkwy are 45mph but still they are twisty and beautiful. There are amazing places to ride here in E TN and W NC
Posted via Mobile Device

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

And I get them confused: BRP or Cherohala, which is the Skyway? And do you know which one was on Top Gear? Beautiful area, but 400 miles at 35-45 mph? No thanks.

Cherohala is the skyway...and worth every mile you have to drive to get there! The Cherohala is not patrolled much at all and traffic has always been low when I've been, and its speed limit isn't set as artificially low as that at the Dragon. Neither is the BRP (Blue Ridge Pkwy). There are only occasional rangers on the BRP who can ticket, no "real" cops. I've been several times and seen one ranger in all my trips. The Dragon is where the cops hang out, but the cool thing is there are nearly always 2 stationed there (not more), and once you've taken the road a time or two, you know where they are. Granted, sometimes they do relocate, but many, MANY other bikers will alert you they are ahead by tapping their helmet. It's worth the risk. Anyone who loves the twisties should at least make the trip once IMHO.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

He told me that our regular haunting grounds are every bit as good in terms of fun and challenge.

Wow, so your stomping grounds have 318 different types of mountain twisties in an 11-mile stretch???

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

So how do you learn to set your entry speeds correctly for a corner? How do you do this on a corner you have never seen?
Misti

This is an awesome question and one I still struggle with at times too. I usually have a slower entry speed than ideal for a few reasons. #1 I'm on the street and want to keep enough traction in reserve to alter my line or stand her up and brake if there's a hazard ahead. #2 Admittedly, I don't really know how to set a perfect entry speed for a corner I've never seen, particularly a blind one when it's impossible to see very far ahead of you. So I'd love to hear other people's responses to Misti's question!
I would never try to keep up with my hubby on his bike in the mountains...ok, well, I did try once and Lil Ninj and I suffered for it. He's a natural and is a better rider than I could ever hope to be, however, I've never understood how he can set such perfect entry speeds in unfamiliar corners and always come out unscathed (knocking on wood several times here). We usually ride twisty roads more than once, so I do tend to get more comfortable and able to take corners a bit faster after the first time through, though I'm still cautious of animals and folks who might be on the road ahead of me.
I'd love to hear everyone's ideas! How DO you learn to set your entry speeds just right for corners you've never seen?

[ally99]

On a slightly separate cornering topic, there are so many different lines from which to choose when going through a corner. I know Lee Parks recommends choosing a delayed apex line. I'd love to open up some discussion regarding this type of line choice. The logic is (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm always a work in progress!) that by delaying the apex, you ride the outside of the turn a bit longer (ie: delay the turn in), and when you do your turn in, you do more of a quick flick to the inside of the corner (getting the lean over with quickly) rather than spending a longer time leaned over and riding the outside line of the corner. Delaying the apex results in getting the brunt of your lean done in a quicker amount of time so that traction is maximized for a longer amount of time. Is this correct? What are the pros and cons of using this type of line when riding corners?

Edit: Sorry, just realized I posted the last 4 posts in this thread.

[wtf]

You are correct.

Late Apex (from experiences in autoxing and karting. The bike is still a work in progress )

Pros:
- Allows to carry your speed deeper into the corner (passing/overtaking)
- Get on the throttle sooner (with maximum tire contact patch)
- better field of view
- Safer in street/canyon riding/driving
- old addage is always true "slow in fast out"
- minimizes the time spent into the corner (as you mentioned) which reduces your vulnerabilities from outside factors

Cons:
- Not the fastest line (aside from normal apex), but the most practical for the street and canyon riding where there are a lot more variables that come into play.
- If racing, the normal apex line (most cases) allows for better setup for the next corner. The late apex will cause you to be inside of the line and will have to make up the position by outbraking again (and possibly go wide). (Sorry I watch too many MotoGP and F1 races)

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by ally99

Wow, so your stomping grounds have 318 different types of mountain twisties in an 11-mile stretch???

First of all, did I specifically type that? No.

Second, I mentioned that a friend who has been to the Dragon on several occasions made that comment to me. I wasn't making the statement.

Third, based on videos of the Dragon, yes I do believe the roads I have available to ride around here are every bit as fun and challenging as what I have seen in the videos. I also believe my friend, who has six years riding experience in several different states across the county. So when he tells me he prefers some of the roads we have around here to the logistics of riding the Dragon, or prefers a shorter trip into Helen to ride the north Georgia mountains, I am not going to argue.

Do we have 318 turns in 11 miles on a single road? Not quite, but yes I have access to extremely serpentine roads. I would say the biggest issue with our local roads is the quality of some, whereas the Dragon seems to have new pavement in every video I see, regardless of age. I guess all those speeding tickets add up.

[oroboros]

Not to hijack this great thread but you have a "local friend" if ever you do visit the area. If you want to just armchair the Dragon tune into Killboy's weekly blog. It highlights the crazy, stupid, weird and wonderful!

http://killboy.blogspot.com/

[CC Cowboy]

Drew, that Porsche sounded so sexy!

[oroboros]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Drew, that Porsche sounded so sexy!

Yes indeed! I was not able to make the hillclimb event but it looked like a good time

[eddiekay]

ooooh,ooooh,,,pick me...I know the answer about the hi slides.
Push down with your right foot on the pedal

[eddiekay]

how did this answer get on this thread ?
sorry guys

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

First of all, did I specifically type that? No.

Second, I mentioned that a friend who has been to the Dragon on several occasions made that comment to me. I wasn't making the statement.

Third, based on videos of the Dragon, yes I do believe the roads I have available to ride around here are every bit as fun and challenging as what I have seen in the videos. I also believe my friend, who has six years riding experience in several different states across the county. So when he tells me he prefers some of the roads we have around here to the logistics of riding the Dragon, or prefers a shorter trip into Helen to ride the north Georgia mountains, I am not going to argue.

Do we have 318 turns in 11 miles on a single road? Not quite, but yes I have access to extremely serpentine roads. I would say the biggest issue with our local roads is the quality of some, whereas the Dragon seems to have new pavement in every video I see, regardless of age. I guess all those speeding tickets add up.

Dude, relax. It's all cool.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by oroboros

Not to hijack this great thread but you have a "local friend" if ever you do visit the area. If you want to just armchair the Dragon tune into Killboy's weekly blog. It highlights the crazy, stupid, weird and wonderful!

http://killboy.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the "invite". I'll be honest though, I have no real desire to visit the Dragon after all of the idiocy I have seen from pictures and videos. I know it isn't the same as being there first hand, but my luck is such that I'll go and it will be horrible weather or extra patrols or suicide-sportbikers or riding-too-fast-cruisers on the day I'm there. The roads I have here in northwest Georgia do just fine, and I have to worry about far fewer bikes or cars crossing center-line on a blind corner.

You guys feel free to enjoy it though. I prefer not to push it on the street and I don't like speeding tickets. I'd prefer not to be another statistic on the Dragon, especially if it is caused by someone else.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

You guys feel free to enjoy it though. I prefer not to push it on the street and I don't like speeding tickets. I'd prefer not to be another statistic on the Dragon, especially if it is caused by someone else.

To each his own! We all love riding for different reasons. Ride safe!

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by ally99

To each his own! We all love riding for different reasons. Ride safe!

Back at ya'.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

This is an awesome question and one I still struggle with at times too. I usually have a slower entry speed than ideal for a few reasons. #1 I'm on the street and want to keep enough traction in reserve to alter my line or stand her up and brake if there's a hazard ahead. #2 Admittedly, I don't really know how to set a perfect entry speed for a corner I've never seen, particularly a blind one when it's impossible to see very far ahead of you. So I'd love to hear other people's responses to Misti's question!
I would never try to keep up with my hubby on his bike in the mountains...ok, well, I did try once and Lil Ninj and I suffered for it. He's a natural and is a better rider than I could ever hope to be, however, I've never understood how he can set such perfect entry speeds in unfamiliar corners and always come out unscathed (knocking on wood several times here). We usually ride twisty roads more than once, so I do tend to get more comfortable and able to take corners a bit faster after the first time through, though I'm still cautious of animals and folks who might be on the road ahead of me.
I'd love to hear everyone's ideas! How DO you learn to set your entry speeds just right for corners you've never seen?

I respect your reasons for taking it easy on public roads and especially ones you have never seen before and in discussing how to increase your entry speed I'm in no way suggesting that you should go out and push your comfort level, especially on the street. You do bring up a good question about how to set your entry speed just right, and how to do it on corners that you have never seen before.

It basically comes down to visual skills. Riders that are able to pick their lines and maintain a decent entry speed into a corner simply have better visual skills than those that are over slowing or braking too much. Our visual skills dictate our "perception of speed." If we don't feel like we are going in to a corner too fast then we maintain our confidence to carry that speed through the turn. So, how do you learn to improve your visual skills so that you aren't over slowing for a turn?

Think about a corner that you know you over slow for, what tends to happen to your vision as you approach that corner? Does it narrow down? How does a narrowed down field of vision effect your sense of speed?

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

On a slightly separate cornering topic, there are so many different lines from which to choose when going through a corner. I know Lee Parks recommends choosing a delayed apex line. I'd love to open up some discussion regarding this type of line choice. The logic is (correct me if I'm wrong because I'm always a work in progress!) that by delaying the apex, you ride the outside of the turn a bit longer (ie: delay the turn in), and when you do your turn in, you do more of a quick flick to the inside of the corner (getting the lean over with quickly) rather than spending a longer time leaned over and riding the outside line of the corner. Delaying the apex results in getting the brunt of your lean done in a quicker amount of time so that traction is maximized for a longer amount of time. Is this correct? What are the pros and cons of using this type of line when riding corners?

Edit: Sorry, just realized I posted the last 4 posts in this thread.

Yes, this is correct. There is also another benefit of this that you didn't mention and that is that by delaying turn in you give yourself extra time to be able to look into the turn to SEE what it does. Ever go into a corner only to find out that it tightens up unexpectedly. If you had delayed your turn in you would have had that little bit of extra time to be able to see into the turn farther and noticed that it was going to tighten up, or at least looked for more visual clues that would tell you what the corner was going to do.

This brings up another good riding technique that goes really well with a delayed apex type of line (and it also ties in to your earlier question about faster entry speeds) and that is something that we call the 2-step at the California Superbike School.

Basically what a lot of riders do is they LOOK (into the turn) and TURN their bikes at the same time. When you do this you have very very little information about the corner that you have just turned into. We like to see our students LOOK into the turn first....wait..... and then turn their bike. Not only does this give you much more visual information about the corner but it also changes your perception of speed because you are visually one step ahead of your bike.

Thoughts on this?

Misti

Originally Posted by wtf

You are correct.

Late Apex (from experiences in autoxing and karting. The bike is still a work in progress )

Pros:
- Allows to carry your speed deeper into the corner (passing/overtaking)
- Get on the throttle sooner (with maximum tire contact patch)
- better field of view
- Safer in street/canyon riding/driving
- old addage is always true "slow in fast out"
- minimizes the time spent into the corner (as you mentioned) which reduces your vulnerabilities from outside factors

Cons:
- Not the fastest line (aside from normal apex), but the most practical for the street and canyon riding where there are a lot more variables that come into play.
- If racing, the normal apex line (most cases) allows for better setup for the next corner. The late apex will cause you to be inside of the line and will have to make up the position by outbraking again (and possibly go wide). (Sorry I watch too many MotoGP and F1 races)

Good points here as well.

Cheers,
Misti

[CmichRider]

This might have been covered before, but what about shifting up during a corner? I find myself revving the bike pretty high sometimes in a corner when rolling on, it'd be nice to go up a gear, but I was taught in MSF not to do anything that will reduce speed or power during a turn. How does that work?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

Think about a corner that you know you over slow for, what tends to happen to your vision as you approach that corner? Does it narrow down? How does a narrowed down field of vision effect your sense of speed?

Misti

Hey Misti. Thanks so much for your replies. I wish I lived in or near California. I'd love to attend the Superbike School for you to coach me! You inspire me. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm narrowing my field of vision as I approach and keeping it narrow too long. I just watched Twist of the Wrist again as a refresher before this coming weekend's mountain trip, and Keith Code mentioned as you approach a corner, zeroing in on your turn in point briefly (narrow vision) but immediately widening your view again to look through the corner (wide vision).
The video also touched on the 2-step that you mentioned. Look through the curve, wait, and then flick it with a determined push of the bars rather than a lazy, slow push.
Those are the things I plan to work on this weekend in the Smoky Mountains. Of course, I'll ride like I'm on the street, not on a track, but I love having goals and things to work on each time we head up north! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom !

[taikahn]

Originally Posted by indrish

put your foot down like they do on motards

I did this on a snow mobile once, about 8 years ago, my hip still hurts sometimes.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by CmichRider

This might have been covered before, but what about shifting up during a corner? I find myself revving the bike pretty high sometimes in a corner when rolling on, it'd be nice to go up a gear, but I was taught in MSF not to do anything that will reduce speed or power during a turn. How does that work?

Unless your bouncing the redline don't worry about it, the power is at the top end of the rpms anyway. If you are hitting the rev limiter post apex, you may be ready to take the curve a little faster and at a higher gear on entry.

Misti or a more experienced rider may provide more advanced advice, but I don't up shift until I have the bike mostly upright coming out of the corner.

In fact... if you can actively PULL the bike up, you can crack harder on the throttle earlier and gives you something to do in the later part of the curve instead of letting the other acting forces push the bike upright. If you want to improve a lap time don't be lazy in the last part of the corner. If all you did was roll on and flow through the corner, you missed your chance at the end to gain a bit more speed on exit.

Yes I did say PULL. For example; your counter-steering into a left corner.

1. look for entry point
2. look for apex
3. find line
4. adjust entry speed and gear
5. look through curve to keep your line
6. with your peripheral vision find your marker to begin the corner (make sure its not early), drop and fall in
7. begin roll and continue line

[Begin more advance technique]
8. post apex and near end of corner, the bike will have already begun to come upright, this is when you can influence the bike to get it upright faster by pulling with your left hand. The bonus is you get on the throttle harder and faster. You can roll the throttle at the same time as you pull, but keep control. We don't want to do wheelies on the 250 now.....
[End more advance technique]

If you want to up shift in the corner, the time is way post apex....., after the bike is mostly upright and your line is secured.

[Kevin2109]

Dont shift at redline in a corner (Well from 1st gear to 2nd at least) The front end of the bike will come up, little sketchy

[LazinCajun]

Today during my ride I decided to focus on practicing throttle control in a variety of situations including cornering. I'm aware of and practice the early throttle roll-on, but I realized I don't have a good idea as to exactly how much throttle should be used.

Since I'm pretty nerdy, my first thought was to do a quick calculation: I remember Keith Code stating in Twist of the Wrist that the acceleration to get the correct forward/backward weight distribution is something like 0.1 - 0.2g for modern sportbikes. I figured since our ninjettes have narrower rear tires than your average racing replica, we should probably be at the low end of that scale (ie, slightly skewing weight to the front since our rear contact patch is relatively smaller). 0.1g turns out to be just a bit more than 2 miles per hour per second -- in other words, every second, your speed should increase by 2-5 MPH.

2mph / sec is actually quite a bit smaller than I thought! Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot?

[almost40]

You can, and I have upshifted mid corner. Make sure its the 2-3 or 3-4 or 4-5 shift. Do it quickly and clutchlessly.<-- if thats a word
The more upright the bike the better, although I have shifted at apex before. (I would rather wait to shift on exit when the bike is more upright, but it can be done at apex.)
BE SMOOTH and try not to upset the bike too much.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by LazinCajun

Today during my ride I decided to focus on practicing throttle control in a variety of situations including cornering. I'm aware of and practice the early throttle roll-on, but I realized I don't have a good idea as to exactly how much throttle should be used.

Since I'm pretty nerdy, my first thought was to do a quick calculation: I remember Keith Code stating in Twist of the Wrist that the acceleration to get the correct forward/backward weight distribution is something like 0.1 - 0.2g for modern sportbikes. I figured since our ninjettes have narrower rear tires than your average racing replica, we should probably be at the low end of that scale (ie, slightly skewing weight to the front since our rear contact patch is relatively smaller). 0.1g turns out to be just a bit more than 2 miles per hour per second -- in other words, every second, your speed should increase by 2-5 MPH.

2mph / sec is actually quite a bit smaller than I thought! Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot?

You can whack the throttle wide open on a 250 if you please. Rear traction isnt the problem. A roll on is much more preferd of course. In my experience is you will lose the front first anyway.

[2010Zen]

Originally Posted by 8gauge

I just clench my buttcheeks and hope i didnt ruin a pair of good underwear.

I love that response!! LMAO I thought that was my trick?!?! hehehehe With the roads here in Las Vegas one hopes the tires stick!