Cornering

[choneofakind]

yeah nothing quite guages your entry speed quite like the brown-pants factor.


on a more related note, guys this advice is awesome. I'm going to try the delayed apex and two-step turn in next time I ride. I think about it now and when I look, I immediately start to lazily lean the bike. I need to separate those. keep the tips coming.

[ally99]

I agree. This is my favorite current thread.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Hey Misti. Thanks so much for your replies. I wish I lived in or near California. I'd love to attend the Superbike School for you to coach me! You inspire me. Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm narrowing my field of vision as I approach and keeping it narrow too long. I just watched Twist of the Wrist again as a refresher before this coming weekend's mountain trip, and Keith Code mentioned as you approach a corner, zeroing in on your turn in point briefly (narrow vision) but immediately widening your view again to look through the corner (wide vision).
The video also touched on the 2-step that you mentioned. Look through the curve, wait, and then flick it with a determined push of the bars rather than a lazy, slow push.
Those are the things I plan to work on this weekend in the Smoky Mountains. Of course, I'll ride like I'm on the street, not on a track, but I love having goals and things to work on each time we head up north! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom !

Great! Glad to have been of some help and let me know how it goes when you work on your wide view and two step in those corners. Those two techniques are ones that I constantly have to work on in my riding and racing and are the ones that I struggle with the most. They are also the ones that will help a lot with corner entry speed and helping you become more confident going into corners. Keep up the good work!

PS. Superbike School coaches all over the USA, check out the website for track locations. I actually live in Vancouver, Canada and travel to all the tracks the school coaches at (when I'm not so busy raising a family and sitting on the sidelines being preggers

Originally Posted by csmith12

Unless your bouncing the redline don't worry about it, the power is at the top end of the rpms anyway. If you are hitting the rev limiter post apex, you may be ready to take the curve a little faster and at a higher gear on entry.

Misti or a more experienced rider may provide more advanced advice, but I don't up shift until I have the bike mostly upright coming out of the corner.

In fact... if you can actively PULL the bike up, you can crack harder on the throttle earlier and gives you something to do in the later part of the curve instead of letting the other acting forces push the bike upright. If you want to improve a lap time don't be lazy in the last part of the corner. If all you did was roll on and flow through the corner, you missed your chance at the end to gain a bit more speed on exit.

Yes I did say PULL. For example; your counter-steering into a left corner.

1. look for entry point
2. look for apex
3. find line
4. adjust entry speed and gear
5. look through curve to keep your line
6. with your peripheral vision find your marker to begin the corner (make sure its not early), drop and fall in
7. begin roll and continue line

[Begin more advance technique]
8. post apex and near end of corner, the bike will have already begun to come upright, this is when you can influence the bike to get it upright faster by pulling with your left hand. The bonus is you get on the throttle harder and faster. You can roll the throttle at the same time as you pull, but keep control. We don't want to do wheelies on the 250 now.....
[End more advance technique]

If you want to up shift in the corner, the time is way post apex....., after the bike is mostly upright and your line is secured.

Couple things here. For the most part, yes I save my upshifts for when I am more upright and exiting the corner as opposed to shifting mid turn. Maybe you are downshifting to too low of a gear before the corner? I'd experiment a little with what gears you are taking the corner in and seeing if you can find a middle ground so that you aren't shifting mid turn which can destabilize the bike a bit.

Also, I agree with your comments here about how getting the bike upright at the exit of the turn quickly will help you roll on the gas harder and exit a little quicker. We coach "picking the bike up" a little differently though in that instead of pulling on the inside bar to get the bike to stand up we suggest PUSHING on the outside bar. So in a left hand turn you would countersteer into the turn by pressing on the left bar and then countersteer OUT of the turn by pressing on the RIGHT bar.

The bike won't begin to stand up at the exit of the corner by itself without any input into the bars. If you have good throttle control the bike will maintain its line until you countersteer out. Most riders do this unconsciously but when you start to focus on countersteering OUT of the corners to get the bike upright on exit you are able to roll on the gas harder and exit quicker.

Misti

Originally Posted by LazinCajun

Is there a good way to know that you've hit the proper amount of throttle while street riding? Although I don't have any track time, it seems like close to the edge of traction the tires would provide feedback (ie, the rear starting to slide means you should probably not throttle so hard next lap). On the street, however, I'm not exactly willing to push that hard :P. Any suggestions for finding the sweet spot?

The goal of good throttle control is to STABILIZE the bike, so provided that you are rolling on the gas enough to get the bike stable through the corners, that is enough. From there you can adjust the amount of throttle you give to get the desired riding result. If you want to ride faster and harder then you would work on giving it more gas throughout the entire corner but with the same basic principles of good TC. If you are racing you would work on getting the max roll on and the best corner speed overall. Depends on the riding situation.

Generally speaking though, if you have good TC then your bike will feel stable and will maintain a constant and predictable line.

Misti

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

Also, I agree with your comments here about how getting the bike upright at the exit of the turn quickly will help you roll on the gas harder and exit a little quicker. We coach "picking the bike up" a little differently though in that instead of pulling on the inside bar to get the bike to stand up we suggest PUSHING on the outside bar. So in a left hand turn you would countersteer into the turn by pressing on the left bar and then countersteer OUT of the turn by pressing on the RIGHT bar.

The bike won't begin to stand up at the exit of the corner by itself without any input into the bars. If you have good throttle control the bike will maintain its line until you countersteer out. Most riders do this unconsciously but when you start to focus on countersteering OUT of the corners to get the bike upright on exit you are able to roll on the gas harder and exit quicker.

Misti

The PULL vs PUSH is about efficiency and slide control and I also took for granted that everyone knows that you have give input to come out of the turn and lean. my bad there, but after all this is a pretty advanced discussion.

Misty, have a quick look at this and tell me what you think.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Misti

We coach "picking the bike up" a little differently though in that instead of pulling on the inside bar to get the bike to stand up we suggest PUSHING on the outside bar.

Another thought on standing the bike up when exiting a corner: I learned in a track day class that when picking the bike up out of a corner you can hang off a little more as you add throttle, in effect making the bike slightly more upright increasing on throttle traction.

Jeff

[pinkandblack]

Ok stupid question... What is apex?
Posted via Mobile Device

[Xoulrath]

The point during a corner in which you are closest to the inside.

[ally99]

Basically compare it to the top of a hill. It's the "top", of the corner, or the point where the curve starts to open up again. "The apex is the point at which, looking ahead, you can first see a clear path to the exit."

http://www.ottawamotorcycle.ca/terms33.shtml

[EsrTek]

What can I do to work on feeling better when taking left turns??

I seem to have a mental block w left turns, maybe it partially from my high side going left, but I noticed it before that too.
However, now on my new bike, I've got about 900 miles and noticed the feelers on my left side of tire still there, while the right side are gone, minus 1 or 2 real close to the chicken strip.
I know this means I'm leaning more in right turns than left, but I do not know how to fix it... any advice??

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The PULL vs PUSH is about efficiency and slide control and I also took for granted that everyone knows that you have give input to come out of the turn and lean. my bad there, but after all this is a pretty advanced discussion.

Misty, have a quick look at this and tell me what you think.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Good point. You mention that pull vs push is about efficiency and also about what is more comfortable and intuitive to the person doing it. Some find it very confusing to pull the inside bar over pressing on the outside so pushing makes more sense for them.

I should have been more clear when I said that at CSS we coach "press" rather than pull" What should have said is that what I usually do as a coach is begin by teaching the press as I find it makes more sense for more riders. I'll say after that they can choose to either press or pull but I do start the discussion by suggesting a press.

In Keith's technical briefings at the school he says you can either press on the outside bar or pull on the inside bar while it appears that Andy Ibbot prefers to coach "pulling on the inside bar". Either way will work it just depends what the rider finds more comfortable, intuitive and effective.

Hope that made sense

Misti

[rockNroll]

I find it more comfortable to push so that's what I do, unless I only have one hand on the bar, then I might have to pull

[csmith12]

Yea, I was pushing when I first started more aggressive cornering. After my body position got better, I found my arms much more stretched on the outside. Tried pulling instead and haven't looked back since. Not to mention I use my tank bag while riding more often. So I can rest my arm on the tank & bag. A bonus to that is, I know I am loose if I can rest my arm.

I wish they would put the level 1 and 2 classes on dvd. I am sure there would be a great seller. Maybe in a few years I will have saved enough to come out there for a week or two to go through those classes.

Always glad to have your input Misti, there is alot of gray and even more bad advice area when it comes to subjects like this.

[Xoulrath]

I have tried both and I find myself doing whatever feels most comfortable. Which is usually whatever takes less effort.

[csmith12]

http://superbikeschool.com/team/

There is the guy from the videos and Misti too!

Andy Ibbott
UK School Director (Class IV Coach)

Misti Hurst
Riding Coach (Class III)

[csmith12]

Here is the next question for cornering. After your skill increases, how do you know when its time to adjust your rear preload. Mine is starting to feel soft around the apex, is that the clue? Feels great, pre and post apex. I know you want to keep em in the midrange, but I can't really see it while riding.

[Nemesis]

Am I the only one who has no idea what I'm doing when cornering? I just countersteer, aim, lean off, throttle off then on when I apex and put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner.

Could it be that simple?

[ally99]

Nice! Sometimes we do overthink things (trust me, type-A here), but some of us learn by doing so. I agree though, I think you just gave great cornering advice because the key is to RELAX! Your post helped us to remember that.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner.

This is the part where the type-A'ers have a problem.

I have no faith, nor do I want any. Does "Faith" assumes the bike is in control? I as the rider, want to be in 100% control 100% of the time. The only way to reach that goal is to understand what is going on to the rider and bike.

Even K. Code says "Don't trust your tires, trust yourself." And I agree, the bike will never say its sorry....

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Am I the only one who has no idea what I'm doing when cornering? I just countersteer, aim, lean off, throttle off then on when I apex and put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner.

Could it be that simple?

I think most of us ride with some measure of intuition and don't really break things down into specifics. We just "ride." When I first started racing I had no clue of what I was doing but I happened to be quite fast and to do alright. It wasn't until I took the Superbike School as a student that I realized how much better I could ride once I did break things down a little bit and understand technique and skills a little more.

I was able to really get more out of my riding. At first it felt weird because it was a little mechanical and choppy as I tried to put all the pieces of learning together but gradually it became smooth and comfortable and went back to feeling more intuitive.

I guess what I'm saying is that it can be that simple but I also think it can be better (and still simple) when you take the time to investigate your riding and improve all the different aspects.

For example, you say that when you corner you, "I just countersteer, aim, lean off, throttle off then on when I apex and put my faith in bike & tires that I'll make it through the corner."

As a riding coach I might suggest that you "hang off, then throttle off, then AIM, then Countersteer, then throttle ON, apex and then trust that you will make it through the corner How do you think that would make your cornering experience different???

Misti

[BlueHairSar]

I've been starting to more consciously think about my line when riding (on the street) and typically have been shooting for a delayed apex. Any tips on how to avoid entering too late, even for the delayed apex? I sometimes feel like I miss the right stop and start going wide before I turn in.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

I've been starting to more consciously think about my line when riding (on the street) and typically have been shooting for a delayed apex. Any tips on how to avoid entering too late, even for the delayed apex? I sometimes feel like I miss the right stop and start going wide before I turn in.

What are you looking at? How might adjusting your visual skills help you with this problem?

Misti

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Sometimes it's not really your fault. LOL

Vid here

Around 2:48 mark is when it happens.


For me, it's mostly I'm not entering the turn/corner fast enough.

If you're mind is telling you you're entering the turn/corner too fast just stand the bike up (assuming you're in mid-turn) and get on the brakes. But what most people don't understand is they think the speed you're entering the corner/turn is the speed you're be cornering which is not true. In other words, your "Oh shiet!" moment will most likely turn into a "Oh?" moment.

Really cool vid and song but when you do them at the same time its annoying.

[ally99]

I am currently reviewing my cornering Bibles as is my routine before every trackday. I wanted to revive this thread, one of my favorites! It usually takes me a good half a day at least to become comfortable on a new track. My morning on day 1 will be spent learning lines and turn-in and reference points. My biggest weakness on the track has always been braking too early and staying on the brakes too long coming into a corner instead of waiting later and braking harder. I'm hoping to work on that ever so slightly this weekend. Excited for some corners on the 300!

I found this quick read with Jennings-specific video regarding cornering strategies, particularly for first-timers at the track: http://www.allaboutbikes.com/feature...kevin-schwantz

Side note: I am actually starting to get more out of Total Control than Twist of the Wrist. Damn Keith Code should have hired me to be his editor. He and Doug Chandler even use "break" when they mean "brake" a few times in the book. Missing and incorrect punctuation, grammar errors all over the place, and feeling the need to asterisk and define words like realize, dazzling, and exit really take away from the credibility and intelligence of the message in the book. There. Off my teacher soapbox now.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ally99

Side note: I am actually starting to get more out of Total Control than Twist of the Wrist. Damn Keith Code should have hired me to be his editor. He and Doug Chandler even use "break" when they mean "brake" a few times in the book. Missing and incorrect punctuation, grammar errors all over the place, and feeling the need to asterisk and define words like realize, dazzling, and exit really take away from the credibility and intelligence of the message in the book. There. Off my teacher soapbox now.

i felt the same way. its targeted at a certain type of person i guess

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ally99

Side note: I am actually starting to get more out of Total Control than Twist of the Wrist. Damn Keith Code should have hired me to be his editor. He and Doug Chandler even use "break" when they mean "brake" a few times in the book. Missing and incorrect punctuation, grammar errors all over the place, and feeling the need to asterisk and define words like realize, dazzling, and exit really take away from the credibility and intelligence of the message in the book. There. Off my teacher soapbox now.

that's funny, I've never really noticed anything other than the "break" "brake" thing, I guess spotting grammatical errors and the like just isn't in my mind as a priority.

thank's for the bump, this is a fairly useful thread.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Sirref

that's funny, I've never really noticed anything other than the "break" "brake" thing, I guess spotting grammatical errors and the like just isn't in my mind as a priority.

thank's for the bump, this is a fairly useful thread.

Being a teacher, it's part of my mindset. Even so, a widely published book like TOTW should have had an actual editor.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ally99

Being a teacher, it's part of my mindset. Even so, a widely published book like TOTW should have had an actual editor.

I can agree with that, no book should be published without being properly edited. Looks like I should look into getting a copy of total control to add to my daily reading now that my older brother has my copy of twist of the wrist II.

[ally99]

Total Control is AWESOME! Highly recommend it!

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by ally99

Total Control is AWESOME! Highly recommend it!

What's best about TC is not only can you read the book, but take the classes (which offer 3 levels) and actually practice what you read.
I'd like to see their level 1 be the standard BRC course


Can't recommend TC book and classes enough!!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

What's best about TC is not only can you read the book, but take the classes (which offer 3 levels) and actually practice what you read.
I'd like to see their level 1 be the standard BRC course


Can't recommend TC book and classes enough!!

classes?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

classes?

http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/

[Sirref]

looks like a street oriented version of the california superbike school, which would likely work best if the rider goes through both programs. Unluckily none of them are close enough to me to justify riding out to empty my wallet and get better at riding by riding 9 hours before riding back. I think track days + books and self video are the way to go for me at the moment. thank's for the link though csmith

[csmith12]

np, I am just happy to beat @Motofool with a link out of the bag of tricks. lol

[EsrTek]

Ben I feel you.. like I would like to go to the CA superbike school, but just not feasible.
If your the go getter type, and have lots of buddies who ride or know how to reach bikers in your area. TC will setup a class if they get 10+ reservations and have facility to do it.

That's how it got started here in Nashville, now 2yrs later they hold 3 day's of class at least twice a yr.
Also our trainer travels down from NY state just to teach class(s).

If interested at all I can put you in contact w/ someone and go from there.

[Sirref]

It's a little pricey for me overall so I'd have to wait until at least summer, I'll ask around over the summer if people want to do it. I know one person who would be interested for sure so worst case scenario we'd pack our bikes into his van and drive down to the VA/TN class or up to a NY class.

[oroboros]

Oh man, I miss you guys!! I really miss my little ninjette.

Totally of topic but what the hell. I am putting my house on the market next month and for anyone who wants a great mountain home in E TN... let me know It is just a quick ride over the parkway to the Dragon. Absolutely awesome area to go riding (and practicing your cornering). The back yard is the Great Smoky Mountains.

[CC Cowboy]

There is a new school that runs Laguna.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=166768

[JohnnyBravo]

I wish Raphael or michalangelo would write a motorcycle book!!! I could probly really get into reading that, or maybe Larry the cable guy...

[Klondike1020]

Cornering is all about pushin it almost to far where you start to lose it and ave it at the last second!

Excellent adrenalin rush from that moment of being out of control

[oblivion007]

I feel like I need this for the 650. Not sure but its handling/weight or something scares me.
I feel like I can throw the 250 around easy slow or relatively fast on the street or track. 650... nope.

I should get the book me thinks.