Motorcycle ABS

[Alex]

We touched on this in one of the braking threads, but I felt that there might be enough neat info out there to deserve its own thread. I enjoyed this comparison that MCN recently did between Honda's CBR1K ABS and the non-ABS version:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Alex]

I've had ABS on two bikes, and have owned a pile more bikes that don't have it. I think at this point, if I was considering a particular streetbike that offered it, I wouldn't hesitate to order it. IMO, the downsides (increased weight, complexity, loss of "connected" feeling), aren't enough to make up for the upsides (more predictable and more effective braking in less than ideal conditions). BMW has been working on bike ABS for quite awhile, and each generation gets a little better, though like any technology it's likely to continue to be improved. The ABS on our R11RT was pretty good, but on the R12RT it's much better. Much quicker to cycle, less likely to engage at times when it isn't necessary, and to me it has a better brake lever feel, though that's hotly debated online at times. I'm very interested in trying out Honda's new sportbike-focused ABS on their new CBR's. The reviews have been quite positive, even from some local track junkies who have put quite a few laps in with the new system. Prior to this, it would have been laughable for anyone to even attempt to put a streetbike ABS system on the track, as the disadvantages would greatly outweigh any potential advantages, if there even were any. But that may not be the case any more...

[Nickds7]

Thanks for sharing. I just hope that more bikes will have abs by the time I come around to my next bike purchase. I've thought about abs a lot recently, I have a few friends with abs. I have a feeling it is going to start flying on more and more models soon. It may just decide my next bike purchase

[CodE-E]

For my motorcycle license exam, I had to perform an emergency stop from 50 km/h on a Honda Hornet which had ABS. I liked it a lot, I could just hit both brakes full power, and I'd come to a stop real quickly. My arms really had to work to keep me from staying on the bike, that's how quick the deceleration was.

[TrueFaith]

Honda's ABS is greatly improved from earlier versions. I don't think I've seen one negative comment about it, even from regular track riders who have tried it. If it helps avoid even one accident it more than pays for itself. The negatives of added cost, more weight and complexity pale in comparison to what this system can do for you when you need it most. I often wonder if ABS could have prevented me from crashing on gravel last year. All I needed was a few more feet to stop before the road ran out. The ABS probably would have braked more aggressively. No doubt I was so concerned about washing out on the gravel as I applied the brakes that I didn't apply them as fully as an ABS would have done on the same surface. It could have given me the few feet I needed to stay upright before hitting the curb. With the many positive reviews of this system that have appeared so far, I can see other manufacturers scrambling to keep up and ABS will probably be standard equipment on bikes a few years from now. Hopefully this will lead to a sharp decline in single-bike accidents as a result.

[Snake]

I learned alot from the video. Thanks for sharing.

[Rayme]

ABS is your friend in emergency braking, no questions about it.

People will complain about the cost, but at the same time spend hundreds on gear..where as ABS could and will probably prevent alot of crashes from happening.

[komohana]

thanx for sharing that. it's one thing to read about the abs advances honda's incorporated onto its flagship sportbike, but it's even more impressive watching it work, and work well. when i first read and commented about this system, i had the feeling they were on to something. granted, abs on bikes isnt new, but honda seems to have it down, tweaked and working well. or, performing the way i envision abs outta work.

so lets review...traction control...abs braking...throw in some back-engineered alien technology to market speed and rpm sensors sophisticated enuff to develop a fully automatic, self shifting transmission for mororcycles and we'll be all set!

but by then i SHOULD be able to get the generic hover conversion kit though..

...never mind.

[ally99]

Thanks for the video! Very informative.

[Sound Wave]

Originally Posted by Alex

I think at this point, if I was considering a particular streetbike that offered it, I wouldn't hesitate to order it. ...

i think so too. seems like a no-brainer.

my friend doesn't like the idea of abs. he said that he likes to have "complete control" over his braking.

[noche_caliente]

I think ABS is great - and ftr, my objection in the other thread wasn't to ABS, but rather to the statistics presented in the article

[TrueFaith]

Originally Posted by Sound Wave

i think so too. seems like a no-brainer.

my friend doesn't like the idea of abs. he said that he likes to have "complete control" over his braking.

I'm sure there were plenty of professional racers who thought that adding fairings to bikes was a stupid idea too. Until they noticed they weren't crashing as much because of blown engines leaving oil slicks all over the track several times every race. Harley hard tail riders were no doubt horrified when HD started offering rear suspension too. There will always be people who think that their old way is better than new technology. Lucky for us and our fragile bodies that progress cannot be stopped.

[Cedilla]

I think the only group of people that would greatly benefit from ABS is brand spankin new riders, but I dont think they should start on a bike with ABS, or else they would never learn proper braking techniques.

[TrueFaith]

Originally Posted by Cedilla

I think the only group of people that would greatly benefit from ABS is brand spankin new riders, but I dont think they should start on a bike with ABS, or else they would never learn proper braking techniques.

That's some absurd reasoning. That's like saying the only people who would benefit from automatic transmissions in cars are the ones who never learned to shift manually. I wouldn't buy a new car if it wasn't offered in manual shift, but that doesn't mean I think 99% of the people on the road that drive automatics are doing it because they don't know how to drive. What are you going to say ten years from now when most bikes are ABS-equipped? That the people who ride them don't know how to ride because "we" didn't need crap like that to be a "true" rider? Get serious. Anything that makes riding safer and brings more people into the sport shouldn't be derided because the people using it "haven't paid their dues" or didn't learn through crashing the way we did.

[noche_caliente]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith

That's some absurd reasoning. That's like saying the only people who would benefit from automatic transmissions in cars are the ones who never learned to shift manually. I wouldn't buy a new car if it wasn't offered in manual shift, but that doesn't mean I think 99% of the people on the road that drive automatics are doing it because they don't know how to drive.

I'd be all kinds of screwed if that was the case! My orthopedic surgeon told me that I should never by a car with a manual transmission because I can't depend on having 2 good knees at any one time. And in fact, I am perfectly capable of driving my husband's GTi, but when I do, I have trouble walking after a couple of days of it - that damn stick kills me! Actually, it's the clutch - the resistance is just too much for my patellar tendon from all of the surgeries...
Thankfully the bike is a different story, and if my knees are having a bad day, I can take the cage.

[Nickds7]

Originally Posted by Cedilla

I think the only group of people that would greatly benefit from ABS is brand spankin new riders

Did you watch the video?

[zartan]

I am voting for continuing to advance this technology.
Thanks Alex
Good reminder in how long it take us to stop with ABS or not..

Just wondering how long it takes that highway squid doing 120+ to stop. Yikes..

[noche_caliente]

Originally Posted by zartan

I am voting for continuing to advance this technology.
Thanks Alex
Good reminder in how long it take us to stop with ABS or not..

Just wondering how long it takes that highway squid doing 120+ to stop. Yikes..

about 30 or 40 feet of sliding down the pavement should do it... you know after he lays his wheelie down wearing no gear...

[Alex]

[rusninja]

Originally Posted by Alex

lmao!

[gfloyd2002]

I note that the dog without ABS stopped more quickly, which has been my experience as well.

If (and that is a big if), you are able to keep non-ABS just on the edge of losing traction, you can stop more quickly if you have ideal conditions (yet another big if) without it. I've done heavy braking exercises at Skip Barber Racing and it really helped stopping distances to have ABS off when all else was perfect.

And with that said, I am totally getting ABS on my next bike. Life isn't perfect, and when it isn't you really want the help. Far more predictability, particularly in wet and slippery conditions, makes it totally worth it. I was on a wet, muddy ride after a torrential rain with a friend on his BWM F650GS, and I was sliding all over the place as he was confidently keeping his straight and steady. I nearly crapped myself fighting to stay upright under braking and asked how he was doing it. He was confused, and said he just was laying on the brakes hard and letting ABS do the work. ABS is wonderful.

[Toly]

Was it that surprising that the best rider in the video had very close ABS and non-ABS distances? ABS may let U ride faster in the wet, but it will not build your skills. I understand usefulness of ABS on Harleys, cruisers & most streetbikes. But not on hardcore sportbikes like Fireblade 1K.

In performance bike riding, tire feedback is everything, and ABS completely shortcuts this connection once it senses a slide or an impeding slide. That vital feedback between road, tires and the rider, and knowing how much grip you have at any moment, in each tire, is what makes performance bike riding so much fun. It takes a long time to learn to read the road & surface conditions, and to understand what tires are telling you at any moment. It is a very sensitive & delicate connection and there, ABS is nothing but a condom - it will keep you safe, but you'll miss all the fun.

[EsrTek]

To me it seems like ABS is good and bad thing at the same time....
I agree it seems better for non-ideal conditions or really hard emergency braking, but that is also where it turns bad at same time.

To me I noticing a trend of ABS bikers just grabbing a handful of brakes and letting the ABS take over.
I feel this is a terrible habit to get into, unless you plan on never riding another bike w/o ABS. As if grab that much brakes from habit on a non-abs bike, your going for a superman ride.

So I'm still on the fence w/ this topic

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

To me it seems like ABS is good and bad thing at the same time....
I agree it seems better for non-ideal conditions or really hard emergency braking, but that is also where it turns bad at same time.

To me I noticing a trend of ABS bikers just grabbing a handful of brakes and letting the ABS take over.
I feel this is a terrible habit to get into, unless you plan on never riding another bike w/o ABS. As if grab that much brakes from habit on a non-abs bike, your going for a superman ride.

So I'm still on the fence w/ this topic

People who drive cars with ABS don't do this so why would bikers?

[burningscooter]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

To me it seems like ABS is good and bad thing at the same time....
I agree it seems better for non-ideal conditions or really hard emergency braking, but that is also where it turns bad at same time.

To me I noticing a trend of ABS bikers just grabbing a handful of brakes and letting the ABS take over.
I feel this is a terrible habit to get into, unless you plan on never riding another bike w/o ABS. As if grab that much brakes from habit on a non-abs bike, your going for a superman ride.

So I'm still on the fence w/ this topic

Thats nonsense.

[Heed]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

To me it seems like ABS is good and bad thing at the same time....
I agree it seems better for non-ideal conditions or really hard emergency braking, but that is also where it turns bad at same time.

To me I noticing a trend of ABS bikers just grabbing a handful of brakes and letting the ABS take over.
I feel this is a terrible habit to get into, unless you plan on never riding another bike w/o ABS. As if grab that much brakes from habit on a non-abs bike, your going for a superman ride.

So I'm still on the fence w/ this topic

Have you ever driven a car and had the ABS take over? It doesn't happen by accident. It mostly only comes into play when it's strictly beneficial and it's kind of difficult to get it to kick in on purpose unless it is going to help you. I've never seen someone let the ABS take over or have it abused.

I remember back when I was learning how to drive a car, my instructor told me to hit the brakes hard in this wet driveway on purpose to know what the ABS feels like. I've never driven a bike with ABS for the record, but i don't see why it would be any different than a car in that respect.

[coondog]

Originally Posted by zartan

I am voting for continuing to advance this technology.
Thanks Alex
Good reminder in how long it take us to stop with ABS or not..

Just wondering how long it takes that highway squid doing 120+ to stop. Yikes..

Totally agree with even further increasing R&D on these brakes. I worked for the Fl. Highway Patrol as a craftsman when ABS were introduced and put on some interceptors. These troopers were ending up in the woods (scrub) with the ABS at the end of chases or when wanting to pull a 180 etc. but I realized they were also trained to ride and pursue with regular brakes so it must have been quite an awakening, and they were foul-mouthed on the new braking systems. Technology has caught up along with peoples awareness and usage knowledge.

[423yjl]

I had a GMC pickup with ABS and it was horrible. While breaking, if you hit a pot hole , the ABS would kick in. Then it would be quicker to stop, if you took your foot clean of the brake and reapplied. My town had very bad roads. I can not get over that feeling of loosing brake control.
Things are probably better now but I'm jaded.
Right now on a bike I want control,and feel.

[allanoue]

It lives

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Alex

While I get the point of the meme, however... I find it flawed in theory. The non abs dog stopped before the abs dog.

Also, looking at it side by side like that, the sliding dog is a predictable pattern, where as the abs dog is chaos.

I don't mean anything by my comments and know the value of abs, just interesting and objective observations.

[jeffb502]

Good thread resurrection.

This is about 4 wheeled vehicles with ABS, but I think it applies to the dogs pictured. On sand the quickest way to stop a 4 wheeled vehicle could be to lock the brakes. If you lock all 4 for a while though you might get stuck...good times.

BMW actually has a switch on their ABS equipped dual sport motorcycles to turn off the ABS.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/problems/e...04-26-2013.htm

Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without?

Perhaps, but that's not the main purpose of ABS. It is a system designed to help you maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not necessarily make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and most systems may shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as gravel or unpacked snow, ABS may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or icy conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.

Here's an article where they conclude that on a motorcycle, off road, the "off road ABS" allowed the rider to stop quicker off road than when the ABS was not used. They used street oriented tires on a fairly hard, slippery dirt surface.

http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/17...ainst-ktm-abs/

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

To me it seems like ABS is good and bad thing at the same time....
I agree it seems better for non-ideal conditions or really hard emergency braking, but that is also where it turns bad at same time.

To me I noticing a trend of ABS bikers just grabbing a handful of brakes and letting the ABS take over.
I feel this is a terrible habit to get into, unless you plan on never riding another bike w/o ABS. As if grab that much brakes from habit on a non-abs bike, your going for a superman ride.

So I'm still on the fence w/ this topic

I generally agree with this. If you have a good ABS system, it should be better than you are at judging when your wheels are locking up. In that case, whenever you want to stop as quickly as possible, you should grab as much brake as possible and let the ABS handle it (since it's better at it than you are). If you're doing the modulating, then you're bypassing the ABS and its benefits. If you have a good ABS system, you'll get the best results by relying on it 100%.

I think ABS is a great safety feature, but I think it's also good to know how to operate without it. I don't think all non-ABS bikes will cease to exist in our lifetime, so I think every biker should learn good braking skills even without ABS.

The new systems are getting fancier (like the Honda system in the video that switches to completely by-wire, computer-controlled braking in panic stops (which also scares me a bit)), but the basic concept of an ABS system is that it lets off the brake for you. At least in the past on 4-wheeled vehicles, they generally increased stopping distances in good conditions, but greatly improved control in poor conditions. Since it's a system stuck in the middle that lets off the brake for you, they tended to make the brakes slightly less effective in normal conditions in order to give you much better limit braking in poor conditions.

As these systems get better, they can do an even better job of allowing as much braking as possible and releasing just enough to avoid lockups, resulting in the best stopping performance and still maintaining control. In the old days, the best the ABS system would do is get (mostly) out of the way and let your regular braking system act like normal. Now with better sensors and faster processors and other more-gooder parts, they can redirect braking force as needed and come much closer to the limits of traction and such. The better the ABS systems get, the closer you need to be to the perfect rider in perfect conditions in order to outperform them. Throw in a bit of imperfection, and the ABS system will most likely beat you handily.