How long before you were comfortable in the twisties?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Mulholland

At which point on the track do they roll out the cars and oncoming traffic? The track is a different experience than the street ever will be. That's why drivers education isn't done on closed circuit road courses. Your logic is flawed and thoughtless. The skills one learns at the track in a car or motorcycle translate very well into comfortably maneuvering risky situations on the street but else wise have no bearing on commuting. The track can teach you a lot, but only experience on public roads will make you more comfortable on public roads. The track does not have a center divider, curbs, potholes, oncoming traffic, stops and starts, etc. Please, continue to educate everyone though.

If half the squids out there learned to ride to 95% the limits of their bike on a track before hitting the street, then hit the street and rode your claimed 75%, they woul die, because the track isn't a public road and is a completely different environment designed to facilitate freedom. It's completely different. The skills have transferrence sure, but you have it backwards in my opinion. Learn to commute it and operate it normally, then when you want to learn more than basic riding skills and push it, learn on a safe closed course, and then enjoy the daily grind that much more. Would you have 16yr olds taking driver's ed on close course race tracks and learning racing lines to grant them a license to drive on public roads rather than being trained to drive said public roads? That's insane... However, you learn to drive normal, then attend a few hpde's and that's a recipe for a good driver. Have whatever opinion you like, I think you're giving terrible advice though sending someone who is nervous cornering within traffic lanes to a track environment though.
Posted via Mobile Device

i would agree with you... if most crashes on bikes weren't caused by someone trying to do something over their head. how many crashes are caused because someone doesnt know how to not drive over a double yellow? how often did they ride over the double yellow because they dont know how to properly corner? whats a better idea, learn how to operate a machine in a safe environment, then take your ability to operate the machine and move it into a more risky environment, OR, try learning how to do something extremely dangerous... IN AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS SETTING.

sounds like good, solid advice... learning how to do something where when you screw up you get hit by a car.

if crashes were mostly caused by people who dont know how to deal with other cars, than i would agree. but this isnt the case. crashes happen most of the time because someone is doing something they cant properly adapt to and they run wide or do something stupid and hit a car. knowing to swerve when you are approaching a car waiting to lefthander into you is secondary to knowing how to turn the vehicle.

who would you trust to be able to properly maneuver a bike in an emergency situation? someone who has no experience pushing a bike to its limits, or someone who has plenty of experience pushing a bike to its limits?

you say riding the track will make someone feel more comfortable pushing a bike. and that this comfort will make them push a bike on the street. which will get them into trouble. i think your logic there is flawed. if someone is going to push a bike on the street, they are going to do it whether or not they have the skills to do it or not. nobody knows they dont have the skill to do something until they failed.

[Kevin2109]

This is close to my one year mark

[Jiggles]

Sexy

[csmith12]

This debate is silly.

FACT: Knowing how to fully operate a bike at it's limits or the riders limits can only be safely done at the track or similar. Why? Go to the track and find out.

You will see all riders of all skill levels, from the super slow to the super fast. Some that can't corner for sh*t and some that are getting the jollies off scraping elbows & maybe even helmet. Between corner workers watching every bike, control riders watching most bikes and track services (such as medical within 5 mins) they make it a safe and educational way to learn. You will see provisions for the extremely slow riders (white flag or some other color flag) and off pace slower riders normally have a control rider's in front and rear of them.

Google this: "I learned more in one track day than....." and in the results you find a resounding theme.... "I feel more confident on the street". The reasons vary but it don't matter as it relates to the OP question.

Problem solved..... If your track day is not like this, your riding with the wrong org.

Think about this while someone is laying on the side of the road after waiting 20 mins for the ambulance to get there while their bleeding. Where do you want to go down because you where not confident with your speed, road and bike, track or some public street in god knows where?

I wish there was something else... but there isn't right now.

Kevin - That is a sexy pic indeed. However.... you know mang.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Mulholland

At which point on the track do they roll out the cars and oncoming traffic? The track is a different experience than the street ever will be. That's why drivers education isn't done on closed circuit road courses. Your logic is flawed and thoughtless. The skills one learns at the track in a car or motorcycle translate very well into comfortably maneuvering risky situations on the street but else wise have no bearing on commuting. The track can teach you a lot, but only experience on public roads will make you more comfortable on public roads. The track does not have a center divider, curbs, potholes, oncoming traffic, stops and starts, etc. Please, continue to educate everyone though.

If half the squids out there learned to ride to 95% the limits of their bike on a track before hitting the street, then hit the street and rode your claimed 75%, they woul die, because the track isn't a public road and is a completely different environment designed to facilitate freedom. It's completely different. The skills have transferrence sure, but you have it backwards in my opinion. Learn to commute it and operate it normally, then when you want to learn more than basic riding skills and push it, learn on a safe closed course, and then enjoy the daily grind that much more. Would you have 16yr olds taking driver's ed on close course race tracks and learning racing lines to grant them a license to drive on public roads rather than being trained to drive said public roads? That's insane... However, you learn to drive normal, then attend a few hpde's and that's a recipe for a good driver. Have whatever opinion you like, I think you're giving terrible advice though sending someone who is nervous cornering within traffic lanes to a track environment though.
Posted via Mobile Device

I like turtles.
Posted via Mobile Device

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This debate is silly.

FACT: Knowing how to fully operate a bike at it's limits or the riders limits can only be safely done at the track or similar. Why? Go to the track and find out.

Truth. I used a hook turn yesterday on my way home. I took the fun way home and had a ford focus fully left of center around a blind turn. I straightened up, went wide around him, and then threw my shoulder and head forward and in further and hooked back to my line.

I use the hook turn all the time on my mtb, but before I got a chance to do it at the track, I likely would have crapped myself in yesterdays scenario, and I bet I would have clipped or hit that car. And between the two of us, there was likely a 90+ mph differential. 35 mph road, he was way too hot (like 45 mph, pushing wide as he went), and I was already solidly rolled on and doing around 45 as well, but well controlled on my line just after apex. Good thing I was looking through my turn far enough.

Firm believer in learning on the track as soon as a rider gets the basics of motorcycle control down.
Posted via Mobile Device

[alex.s]

just as a side note- its true CAR driving courses are on public roads. because anyone can push on a pedal and turn a wheel. driving a CAR is completely intuitive. driving a BIKE, however, is NOT at all intuitive. (take the confusion about countersteering for example, or what the effects of throttle and braking do in a corner) was your MSF course on a public road? **** NO! it was in a closed course. because half the people there drop their bike or **** up within a few hours.

[csmith12]

Not all driving schools are on public roads. See here: http://www.midohio.com/School/Course...riving-Program. Notice that a driver with just a PERMIT is welcomed to a course.

It's all about divide and conquer.

Step 1 - Learn how to operate the vehicle your on/in first and in a safe controlled environment.
Step 2 - Take it to the streets to learn the ways of the public roads.

[Gurk]

mulholand i have nothing to add cause others have replied pretty much dead on. i believe you are taking this personally. i believe you are looking at it the wrong way. and i believe you havent been to track yet.

in any case, good luck. i hope OP realizes its best to practice riding skills on track. i read far too many "totally my fault. i should have done this and that". this is completely normal. however, consequences are almos always far too worse on canyons.

peace

[highpsiguy]

How long does it take to be comfortable in the twisties? Over 27 years and 250-300k miles, many different bikes. I still can lose my nerve in the twisties. It depends on the day, the weather, the bike, whats going on between my two ears. Some days I am in the zone, most days I am not. I have found lately that I have trouble keeping my head clear and do not ride agressively because of it. I am now 43.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

if someone is going to push a bike on the street, they are going to do it whether or not they have the skills to do it or not. nobody knows they dont have the skill to do something until they failed.

nail > coffin

[eddiekay]

ally99....I wonder if you could sell that rear on Craigslist to some guy who wants to look fast.
Y'know...just for fun...if you have original pix of both tires.....I'd try selling them here in NYC...just to see what happens.
A lot of guys have pipes, sliders, rearsets...all the stuff and still have the little teats on their tires.
The city is....different.

[JeffM]

I became comfortable in the twisties after about two years of riding. Then I took lessons at the track and became uncomfortable in the twisties.

Jeff

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I became comfortable in the twisties after about two years of riding. Then I took lessons at the track and became uncomfortable in the twisties.

Jeff

lol Jeff, so true. That right there is true experience!

[RedOctober]

Ambulance is on standby at the track

[MotoXGirl]

I was comfortable the first week I got my bike, cause the first time I jumped on my bike I did fast weaves back and forth all the time.
Of course I've never actually been to the point of touching a knee down, but I have been pretty close.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I became comfortable in the twisties after about two years of riding. Then I took lessons at the track and became uncomfortable in the twisties.

Jeff

Werd!
I can't ride the street anymore.
1. There's always a cop somewhere
2. There's always a a grandma somewhere
3. I want to use the entire road

[AlanDog]

My entire first year riding I was progressively getting more comfortable in twisties. Your poll choices suck. Well, if by 'comfortable' you mean, not tense while riding down the road--I mean, I remember the first few times when yeah, my body was tense and it felt borderline scary just to be going the speed limit. My first twisty road rides were no doubt slow, but to duplicate that emotional rush on subsequent rides required upping the speed. But my first year, I was just addicted, out riding every weekend, I couldn't get enough.

I went to the track this year because I realized I was beginning to hit speeds on the road that just weren't safe. This last weekend was my first all-day twisty road ride since my trackday (http://goo.gl/maps/0Zp7Y)...

It was weird. I think riding twisties is more difficult. Even on roads I know pretty well, I don't know turn X so well as to know exactly how to hit it. So on the road you're doing more adjustments, more braking, changing your line more, dealing with bumps and surfaces, blind corners, roads you don't know. In some ways, all those variables makes it exciting. It's challenging. You don't know exactly what will be around this next corner... that's the fun of it.

In comparison, riding the track is like being on a rail and you're just honing in on perfection. Hitting the same turns over and over and over again all day. Just making slight changes of body positioning one lap to the next. Experimenting with the fine details. I'm not a competitive person, but having someone in front of me really on the track was the most fun. On my second day ever, I was getting a little bored in the afternoon being all alone and just taking the same turns over and over again. (yes, I know, I should have pushed myself more if that were the case... true. Which just goes to show that I'm not a competitive person).

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by AlanDog

It was weird. I think riding twisties is more difficult. Even on roads I know pretty well, I don't know turn X so well as to know exactly how to hit it. So on the road you're doing more adjustments, more braking, changing your line more, dealing with bumps and surfaces, blind corners, roads you don't know. In some ways, all those variables makes it exciting. It's challenging. You don't know exactly what will be around this next corner... that's the fun of it.

In comparison, riding the track is like being on a rail and you're just honing in on perfection. Hitting the same turns over and over and over again all day. Just making slight changes of body positioning one lap to the next. Experimenting with the fine details. I'm not a competitive person, but having someone in front of me really on the track was the most fun. On my second day ever, I was getting a little bored in the afternoon being all alone and just taking the same turns over and over again. (yes, I know, I should have pushed myself more if that were the case... true. Which just goes to show that I'm not a competitive person).

I don't know about the fun part of "what will be around this next corner". The appeal of the track is that there is always more speed I can pick up, and there are always things I can do better. This has nothing to do with competitive nature and more with perfectionist nature. When I started track this year...I ran slow beginner pace. At TWS my first few track days were 2:50. For reference, the record at TWS is 1:41 held by Ty Howard. The advanced (lvl3) group minimum qualifying time is 2:10. I'm now running (on D675 though) 2:17 but I'm still working on learning techniques, not just going balls out trying to set the fastest lap. Track lets me concentrate on the actual riding, not having to watch out for old grandmas/farmer johns/asian ladies putting on makeup while talking on the phone.

[AlanDog]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

I don't know about the fun part of "what will be around this next corner". The appeal of the track is that there is always more speed I can pick up, and there are always things I can do better. [edit] Track lets me concentrate on the actual riding, not having to watch out for old grandmas/farmer johns/asian ladies putting on makeup while talking on the phone.

Well, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but are you saying you typically run into women putting on makeup while talking on the phone in the twisties around blind corners? I just think of twisties as being remote uncrowded mountain roads free of pesky asian women.

I guess when I talk about "what will be around the next corner" I'm talking about turn radius, road camber and surface, bumps, etc. At least as far as being fun. So I am talking about the road and actual riding conditions, not cars on the road or other unwanted surprises. I do think track riding skill is relevant to street skill, especially on twisty roads of course, but they are really different in terms of why each is fun in their own right, at least for me. And my bike didn't give me any problems on the track but this last ride I found that having to make more adjustments brought out the shortcomings of my suspension more than the track.

There are different riding limits on the street and on the track--is one more real than the other?

[KELPHYN]

I still get goose-bumps heading into 20mph corners at 50-60mph.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by AlanDog

I guess when I talk about "what will be around the next corner" I'm talking about turn radius, road camber and surface, bumps, etc. At least as far as being fun. So I am talking about the road and actual riding conditions, not cars on the road or other unwanted surprises. I do think track riding skill is relevant to street skill, especially on twisty roads of course, but they are really different in terms of why each is fun in their own right, at least for me. And my bike didn't give me any problems on the track but this last ride I found that having to make more adjustments brought out the shortcomings of my suspension more than the track.

There are different riding limits on the street and on the track--is one more real than the other?

In my book this would be extremely ill-advised. I do NOT under any circumstances go flying like Rossi through any backroad I do not know/have not ridden recently. 'll maintain the speed limit...maybe even go over it a bit, but in no way am I going to take me/bike to my track speeds on a first run through. Not gonna happen. Maybe in twisties of CA gravel does not magically appear out of thin air overnight, in TX it does ('cause residents throw it in corners or construction trucks dump some).
Last thing I want is to find out the blind turn I went into flying like a bat outa hell is decreasing radius hairpin. Exactly what adjustment are you going to make at that point? It's not exactly safe to just stand up the bike and run off.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, my twisty speeds are way more cautious after going to the track. I refuse to be that balls-first-WOT on the street. Smooth and quick, but not damn-the-torpedo's fast. Gravel happens. Leaves happen. Deer happen. Shaded cold roads happen. Damp spots happen.

[AlanDog]

Does anything in my posts here suggest I go track speeds on the street? I never suggested that. I don't. In fact in my write-up on my first trackday, I noted that on the first 'sighting' lap, we were doing what I thought was the equivalent of going 40 mph on turns that would be signed for 20 on the street (here in calif at least), which is probably the fastest I've ever taken a similar turn on the street. You can go much faster on the track, and it feels much safer in many respects. The limits on speed are much higher. But are you suggesting taking twisties at lower speeds isn't fun? Or just isn't as fun for you? I'm not about to give up twisties after my first taste of the track. I love the scenery, exploring new roads, everything I got into as a long distance bicyclist is amplified by 10x, it's like going downhill all day!

[Alienjoe]

I think one should never be "comfortable" in the twisties. You should be confident that you can handle your bike in the event that something not controlled by you goes wrong. I have a few twisty roads by me and I constantly go slower then I have to in the interest of safety. My wife and sons don't care about my "chicken strips". They just want daddy home in one damn piece.

Track makes you more dangerous because now you want to pretend you are on a groomed and race prepared surface instead of the real world.

Keep the aggression on the track and ride the streets in survival mode.

Just my .02

[AlanDog]

I ride in my comfort zone on the street and on the track. Those are two different limits. On the street there is a safe limit of how far ahead you can see. This limit, relative to the track, is much lower. You just can't safely go track speeds on most twisty road turns. Which is why I tried the track, and I loved it.

And being in your comfort zone doesn't mean your comfortable--as in complacent. Your just riding within your limits. In the beginners group on the track my first trackday, there were four crashes in three hours in a group of maybe 25? It really made me question what I was doing there.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by AlanDog

In the beginners group on the track my first trackday, there were four crashes in three hours in a group of maybe 25? It really made me question what I was doing there.

Don't question why you are there based on the actions of others.

You know that "OH SH*T" feeling you get when you do something that is above your comfort level? I think that is broken in some people.

It's terrible and great at the same time. The terrible part is some peeps crash when then don't have to, the great part is for the riders that can control it, they become some of the fastest riders around.

[AlanDog]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Don't question why you are there based on the actions of others.

You know that "OH SH*T" feeling you get when you do something that is above your comfort level? I think that is broken in some people.

I agree. I never felt threatened by the actions of the other riders, the crashes were all solo incidents that the riders walked away from (as far as I know). So if you're safe, it is a safe environment.

[csmith12]

Alan, go to the track enough times and you WILL from time to time feel unsafe by the actions of others. My front wheel has nearly been clipped by the rear tire of a passing rider on several occasions. Those riders made questionable passes for a track day IMHO.

Some track day orgs treat the A group as a race class. Passes can be really close and on the inside or outside. For a track day, it's not really my thing but at those speeds you do what you have to do to not crash. Because when 7 riders (normally the mid-pack of the group) all hit turn 5 and everyone is near triple digits and hard on the brakes something has to give. To the onlooker, it can look just like a full on race.

Unless I know or trust the rider, on corner entry if someone shows me a wheel I normally let them have the pass. Don't expect that from me in a race but I can get back to the pit with a smile on my face with that attitude on any given track day.

Other things are, Passing a rider on the inside just after tip in. Getting stuffed on entry sucks arse. Normally the rider getting passed will have to stand the bike up to give safe clearance for the pass. It totally jacks the riders line. And the worst.... at least 2 different track day orgs have put the race clinic riders in the novice group. This pits the fastest riders in with the slowest riders, therefor there are 2 sets of passing rules on the track at the same time. And let's face it, I don't wanna be spooking a novice guy by passing him mid corner.

Sometimes you have to trust your gut and hotpit out for .5 a lap to get away from the crazy stuff going on. Other times, it's best to just sit out a session or even ask to be moved to another group.

As K. Rogers once said. "You have know when to hold em and know when to fold em".

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by csmith12

at least 2 different track day orgs have put the race clinic riders in the novice group. This pits the fastest riders in with the slowest riders, therefor there are 2 sets of passing rules on the track at the same time. And let's face it, I don't wanna be spooking a novice guy by passing him mid corner.

Do you mean like Control riders in with the novice group? Or like Advanced group riders in with novice group riders?

[csmith12]

I mean like.... I and A group riders going for their race license or doing race school skills mixed in with the novice group. The novice/new to the track riders where on edge anyway much less getting passed mid corner, getting passed close or stuffed on corner entry. It was the cause of at least 3 riders running off track that I witnessed with my own eyes. Luckily, only one went down that day. A few riders sat out sessions because of it.

It sucks for everyone, the racers and the novice. I have no clue what drives them to make the decision that it's the proper place to put them.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by AlanDog

Does anything in my posts here suggest I go track speeds on the street? I never suggested that. I don't. In fact in my write-up on my first trackday, I noted that on the first 'sighting' lap, we were doing what I thought was the equivalent of going 40 mph on turns that would be signed for 20 on the street (here in calif at least), which is probably the fastest I've ever taken a similar turn on the street. You can go much faster on the track, and it feels much safer in many respects. The limits on speed are much higher. But are you suggesting taking twisties at lower speeds isn't fun? Or just isn't as fun for you? I'm not about to give up twisties after my first taste of the track. I love the scenery, exploring new roads, everything I got into as a long distance bicyclist is amplified by 10x, it's like going downhill all day!

My reply was mainly in regards to this statement:

It's challenging. You don't know exactly what will be around this next corner... that's the fun of it.

I do like a fast (or even slow) run through backroads but don't consider "don't know exactly what will be around this next corner" to be the fun part.

[cadd]

Warning: Bringing back a thread from the dead.

When you guys speak about twisties...what exactly do you mean? Is there a universal rider definition on what constitutes as a twisty road and what isn't?

I'm sure if someone in south FL says he was riding the twisties the other day.....another person from Tennessee will start ROFLMAO.

So is there a scale rating for roads? If the Tail of the Dragon in TN or the Snake in CA is considered twisty roads, how about other roads across the country that have bends in them, but not as severe? Are they considered twisties as well?

The roads that I ride in NJ....are these considered twisties? Or just roads with a few gentle curves? Even riding these roads, I have a good 3/4" chicken strips on my tires....which brings me to my next question for you guys with little to no chicken strips. How tight are the corners by you?!?! That enables you to lean it that far over?! Unfortunately, these are the "twistiest" roads I found close to where I live

(When there's little or no traffic, I generally ride 5mph above the speed limit if I feel comfortable)

Link to original page on YouTube.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by cadd

Warning: Bringing back a thread from the dead.

When you guys speak about twisties...what exactly do you mean? Is there a universal rider definition on what constitutes as a twisty road and what isn't?

I'm sure if someone in south FL says he was riding the twisties the other day.....another person from Tennessee will start ROFLMAO.

So is there a scale rating for roads? If the Tail of the Dragon in TN or the Snake in CA is considered twisty roads, how about other roads across the country that have bends in them, but not as severe? Are they considered twisties as well?

The roads that I ride in NJ....are these considered twisties? Or just roads with a few gentle curves? Even riding these roads, I have a good 3/4" chicken strips on my tires....which brings me to my next question for you guys with little to no chicken strips. How tight are the corners by you?!?! That enables you to lean it that far over?! Unfortunately, these are the "twistiest" roads I found close to where I live

(When there's little or no traffic, I generally ride 5mph above the speed limit if I feel comfortable)

Link to original page on YouTube.

Having spent time driving around the backroads of NJ (parents live near Butler), I question the sanity of sportbike riders who live in the hills
When taking:
1. Wild life
2. Wet/dry leaves
3. Road condition

into account, it's super risky.
I think what allows you to ride at the faster pace is experience and training (here comes the ol' "Track miles vs road miles" argument). After riding the track I feel a lot more comfortable at high speed, especially higher speed turns, than a noob.
This best can be illustrated by a conversation I had with gf after one of the rides we went on: I was in the lead, she was behind, we were doing the speedlimit. Granted she was new at the time, but this wasn't a particularly curvy stretch of the road by any means. I spent time just looking around, enjoying the scenery. I saw a caterpillar crossing the road infront of me (we were doing about 60mph) and took time to snicker at his efforts, etc.
She was trying to just keep the bike on the road and keep up.

So...practice with professional instruction is what allows one to ride at faster and faster pace, IMO.

[cadd]

Speaking about Butler, I was in the Butler library with my niece last week. First time in that library. Holy crap....tiny library hidden in the back of a parking lot! But I heard there are nice roads up there if you go up north a little from Butler.

[Floki]

@cadd

I live in Louisiana and the roads I typically go back to for joy rides have multiple 20-35mph curves. Those are the curves I enjoy most because to get low you only go about 20-30mph faster than the limit of the curve which isn't an insane speed. So I consider LA60 and LA22 curvy roads because 22 has 4 25mph turns and 4 or 5 more turns posted below 40 mph. However, Louisiana is no where near as populated as New Jersey, so these roads are typically in hicktowns with nothing on them except a house every mile or so.

[AlanDog]

Watched just the first part of that video, those roads I'd call "in town" and not safe for really pushing it, IMHO. 5mph above the limit sounds about right. I'd be on high alert mode. Too many driveways and intersections, too much going on. I guess we're super spoiled in Calif. with all the hills and mountains and nicely paved windy roads that go nowhere! Okay, some are not nicely paved, but they're still awesome.

It's funny reading my old posts on this thread, way back in 2012. Since then I've lived on Skyline Blvd in the Oakland hills and then moved to Skyline Blvd in Woodside a few miles north of Hwy 84 about 6 months ago (both roads considered primo destinations for riding). In this thread I sound like one of these idiots riding at track speeds on the street. That was never me, but they're everywhere on these roads. I just didn't know there were that many stupid people in the world.

I still think you can have fun, improve your riding skills, and safely challenge yourself on remote windy roads without being an idiot, especially if you're new to riding. *Those* roads look fun but a little busy for me. In Woodland I'd have to ride about 45 minutes just to get to the fun roads, but that's what I did.