April 13th, 2013, 11:54 AM | #1 |
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Lean or Rich?
I have noticed an overall lack of performance in my bike from some time now and i decided to do something about it.
My current setup: -2009 Ninja 250 with 9500 miles -Fresh-ish oil and semi new spark plugs. changed around 7-8k miles -AreaP full exhaust system -Snorkel removal from air-box -DynoJet Stage 2 Jet Kit with #98 Main jets, Stock Pilot Jet, 2 1/2 Turns on idle screw, 2 Washers under needle with clip on 3rd notch (I Have jets 94-100, 104-108) The symptoms of lean or rich conditions I have are: -Black on the inside of exhaust end pipe -Slow and poor acceleration(if i rev to something like 6k and try to take off, it will drop back down close to idle then start moving) -General power decrease throughout entire power-band, except maybe 2nd and 3rd high rpm. -What seems to be poor gas mileage. Not thoroughly tested just a hunch -Idle seems to be poor, fluctuates a little even when warm I'm not sure if i am lean or rich. I'm leaning towards rich because of the inside of my exhaust being black. I have not tried to run taking out the air filter because that doesn't seem smart. I'm thinking of getting the K&N-0990 Pod filter and removing the air-box to offset the richness. Ideas? |
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April 13th, 2013, 12:08 PM | #2 |
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April 13th, 2013, 12:19 PM | #3 |
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I'll take a look at the plug and snap some pics when it stops raining. i'm pretty sure my air filter is clean, for how old it is. that's why im thinking of getting a kn
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April 13th, 2013, 12:27 PM | #4 |
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If it was carburating properly before, two things may have happened:
1) Increasing obstruction of air intake (mix becomes progressively rich). 2) Increasing obstruction of fuel flow (mix becomes progressively lean). If plugs have been installed for some miles, let's say around 300~500 miles, they serve as a thermometer of the combustion.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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April 13th, 2013, 12:32 PM | #5 |
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It has been this way since I installed the exhaust way back, I just let it go. So the change occured once i installed a new exhaust, put in bigger jets, and removed snorkel.
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April 13th, 2013, 12:43 PM | #6 |
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I see.
I cannot help beyond this point, since I am not familiar with these modifications. I believe that the new jets have more influence on your problem than the new exhaust and that the air filter may the bottle neck for the flow in this case; but I don't really know enough to help you here. Other members, like @choneofakind and @Jiggles may show up soon with real good advise.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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April 13th, 2013, 12:55 PM | #7 |
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Thanks for the help, once i can get a pic of the spark plug I'll link your name
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April 13th, 2013, 01:19 PM | #8 |
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Did you change heat range with the plugs? How old is the gas in the tank?
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April 13th, 2013, 01:25 PM | #9 |
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I fill up about every 2 weeks. Not sure what you mean by heat range, is that the gap?
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April 13th, 2013, 01:47 PM | #10 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug#Heat_range
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Changin...rands_to_avoid http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Lean_or_Rich
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April 13th, 2013, 02:10 PM | #11 |
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First:
Your Ninja 250 will always have black soot in the end of the exhaust can because there's no cats in the exhaust, and the carbs just dump fuel in. That's just how it works. Unless the black build up is excessive, that's not an indicator of being rich. Couple questions: -Has the bike sat for any length of time greater than 2-3 weeks? 0Have any of these performance modifications been made recently? If so, was the bike acting like this before the modifications? 0Your idle fluctuation; is it cyclic up and down in a repeated method or is the hot idle just a different speed than the cold idle? |
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April 13th, 2013, 02:17 PM | #12 |
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What is stock main jets for this bike? 98 seems small with an exhuast and snorkel removal.
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April 13th, 2013, 02:17 PM | #13 |
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What plugs did you put in it?
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April 13th, 2013, 02:21 PM | #14 |
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98 is the stock main on the new gen. 105 is the stock main on the pregen.
NOTE: I'm talking about Keihin/Factory pro sizes. A 98 DJ is roughly equivalent to a Keihin 100. See here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10208 From my experience with these bikes, that should be roughly right for a full exhaust and no snorkel. However, OP says the high rpm WOT stuff is good. That leads me to think that the main jets are the proper size. I'm betting on on needle height, but I need to ask some more questions once the OP answers my first questions. |
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April 13th, 2013, 02:26 PM | #15 |
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Wouldnt it be lean if you put an exhuast system on and remove snorkel just a thought. Or maybe the pilot is too small. Just some ideas
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April 13th, 2013, 02:30 PM | #16 |
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Not necessarily. Remember he went up from a 98 K to a 100 K main jet. On a stock bike, the 98 K mains are actually pretty rich. Once you add a full exhaust and pull the snorkel, it's pretty much optimal, if not just a touch less rich than it should be (you want to aim for 12.8-13.2 under heavy load)
Since he went up a size, he should be fine. When I added a full exhaust and opened my intake lid, I went up one size and it felt perfect. Another newgen rider around me took his bike to my shop and had them install a Yoshi full system and remove the snorkel and put in a high flow filter. They went up to a 100 K main. (same size as the OP is using). I'm pretty sure that his main is either right or close enough to be fine, even if he is at sea level. I'm not that much higher than sea level to really make a significant difference. |
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April 13th, 2013, 02:48 PM | #17 |
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Stepped out for food about to head back to answer questions
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April 13th, 2013, 03:26 PM | #18 | ||
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Quote:
-No recent modifications, all were done 4 months ago, the prob;ems started at that time though. It ran fine before modifications -The idle cycles up and down, when the bike is hot and warmed up you can hear the change in rpms while idleing NGK CR8E Quote:
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April 13th, 2013, 03:29 PM | #19 | ||
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Quote:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...-bottle_method Quote:
First part is finding the right main jet. |
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April 13th, 2013, 03:34 PM | #20 |
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It feels like if i twist the throttle all the way open it lags behind a bit, like if i turn the throttle it doesn't respond immediately and i should be going faster. It definitely hesitate whens accelerating whether its WOT or at 3k rpm.
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April 13th, 2013, 03:40 PM | #22 |
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Try the DJ 96. OEM air filter right?
Plug checks are really only valid if the engine is cut exactly where the fuel delivery is in question. That being said, those don't look like they've been under any long term abuse. Maybe a bit rich, but nothing bad. EDIT: if you don't want to change jets, try going for a ride at night when it's cooler and see if the top end is better or worse. Better means your main jets are a bit big. Worse means the main jets are a bit small. |
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April 13th, 2013, 03:45 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
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April 13th, 2013, 03:47 PM | #24 | |
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Quote:
Also, you note that you have "2 Washers under needle with clip on 3rd notch" No washers go under the clip. You are in affect raising the needle way too much, which would cause a very rich condition. The washers go above the clip. So if indeed you have installed them like that, correct that first before changing the main jet to a 96. This may very well be your issue. |
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April 13th, 2013, 03:47 PM | #25 |
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If you want. I'm not a huge fan of the pod filters. They sound great. But they're loud.
They definitely will make taking the carbs out much easier. EDIT: I didn't catch that. Kerry's right. |
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April 13th, 2013, 03:54 PM | #26 | |
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Quote:
My mistake, the washer are in fact above the clip, like the diagram in the jet kit shows. Looks like going down a jet size should help out. Not sure if you remember but i was the kid who will called the full stainless steel system in lake worth when you were down here, called you a few times when i put the system on and my bike wouldn't idle because I accidentally turned the knob on the side that adjusts idle? |
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April 13th, 2013, 03:57 PM | #27 |
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April 13th, 2013, 04:09 PM | #28 |
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Louder as in I have a Muzzy full system and the pod is louder than that. I find it annoying. Some people like it.
But Kerry still brought up a good question. Are you confusing needle height response with main jet top end pull? When you're judging the main jet, just focus on how smoothly and powerfully the bike reacts under WOT at high rpm's. How it acts as you're rolling on is not the main jet. |
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April 13th, 2013, 04:26 PM | #29 | |
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Quote:
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April 13th, 2013, 04:52 PM | #30 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
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WIX- P/N: 49721 UNI Air Filter- P/N: NU-2303 or Pipercross Performance Air Filter- P/N: MXP166 (highly recommended), |
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April 13th, 2013, 05:50 PM | #31 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
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@kbryant @choneofakind I just put in the 96 Jets ill be able to test it out tomorrow to see how it worked |
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April 13th, 2013, 06:01 PM | #32 |
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Side note, what is this? fell from somewhere when i was unscrewing the screw from the carb-engine header on the right side of the bike near the coolant reservoir. Its a hollow plaster like screw with a cap looking top, has notches around the side like a grip and the end has a jagged piece of plastic like it could have snapped off something
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April 13th, 2013, 06:17 PM | #33 | |
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Quote:
Don't be afraid to experiment. I have seen bikes respond well to DJ94 mj in South Florida conditions. |
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April 13th, 2013, 06:25 PM | #34 | |
Long Time Rider
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Quote:
http://stores.sportbiketrackgear.com/Detail.bok?no=9426 http://www.podiumsuperbike.com/store...idProduct=1118 |
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April 13th, 2013, 06:52 PM | #35 |
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And you can....
Still running stock gears? If so, you need to change them. Extra HP means nothing if you don't take advantage of the power with proper gearing. A 15 tooth front sprocket will gain you approx 4 mph on top end and lower your rpm speed by about 500 rpms. 15/43 is a good combo. Will add about 10 mph on the top end and lower your rpms speed by 1000 rpms. |
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April 13th, 2013, 07:00 PM | #36 | |||
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April 13th, 2013, 07:20 PM | #37 | |
Long Time Rider
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Quote:
See close up pics of the Pipercross Filter. It's not going to make your bike a 600, but you will notice a difference in how you shift. You will stay in a gear a little longer giving you more speed ( in other words you won't shift as quick). If you want to get up and go...twist the throttle a little more, but don't wack it wide open like you've been doing. |
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April 13th, 2013, 07:40 PM | #38 | |
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Quote:
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April 13th, 2013, 07:59 PM | #40 | |
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Quote:
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