Questions about quick flick for fast cornering

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Sirref

who knew riding bikes would have anything to do with the fibonacci sequence at any point.

Most things can be connected to the fibonacci sequence. Nature is amazing!

[Motofool]

[Motofool]

http://www.insidemotorcycles.com/blo...you-turn?.html

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Hmm, on the streets, it leaves you vulnerable for less amount of time. The quicker you get her turned, the less time you spend leaned over.

The sooner you can turn the bike, the sooner and harder you can get back on the gas, right?

Right and right And the importance of getting back on the gas as soon as possible is that it gets the bike stable.

Originally Posted by Motofool

Very interesting questions, Misti; thank you!

In essence, getting the bike turned slowly describes a decreasing radius turn (entering trajectory) from vertical to completely leaned.

It is almost painful observing the time that it takes to most street riders to lean their bikes in traffic.
I understand that normal street conditions do not justify quick flicks, but it is wise just to practice as mush as possible, getting ready because some emergency situations will do.

I also understand that MSF basic courses teach quick swerving, but that is a totally different technique.
In that case, the bike flicks back and forth under the rider (who remains more or less vertical), so the relatively small change in direction has less inertia and can be completed quickly.

Quick flick means that you are assertively commanding the machine for transitioning from a rectilinear movement to a circular one as quickly as possible, so bigger circles are not described in such transition.

Getting the bike turned slowly causes all sorts of problems, you are leaned over for longer than necessary, it prevents you from getting on the gas as early as you could or it causes you to add lean angle and gas at the same time which is a very common cause of crashes. It can also mean that you don't avoid certain dangers, like a biker down in front of you or an obstacle that you are trying to avoid.

So, how do you go about learning how to get your bike turned quickly and effectively? In the article you posted it talks about counter-steering and body steering. Is body steering effective? How do you improve your rate of counter-steering?

[EsrTek]

I didn't get through full thread (yet) but the OP made me think..I knew I seen something this on this before...

From the FasterSafer.com guys (whole thing worth watch, thread related starts at 13:50min)

Link to original page on YouTube.
They talk about points of a tire and specifically state quick flicks ...food for thought??

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

........... Getting the bike turned slowly causes all sorts of problems, you are leaned over for longer than necessary, it prevents you from getting on the gas as early as you could or it causes you to add lean angle and gas at the same time which is a very common cause of crashes. It can also mean that you don't avoid certain dangers, like a biker down in front of you or an obstacle that you are trying to avoid.

So, how do you go about learning how to get your bike turned quickly and effectively? In the article you posted it talks about counter-steering and body steering. Is body steering effective? How do you improve your rate of counter-steering?

The beauty of quick turn is how many degrees in change of direction or heading of the motorcycle can be achieved in a short trajectory and period of time.

IMHO, it is the stopping of the leaning roll what scares most riders.
Like it happens with slow clutch release after downshifting, lazy flick helps mask lack of precision regarding control inputs.

Many riders believe that they are falling while the bike quickly tips over, but actually, the bike is finding by itself (with a lot of gyroscopic reaction and with some "counter-countersteering" of the rider) the precise lean angle that balances all the dynamic forces: it rolls over from out of balance to perfectly balanced.

During the quick-flick, the roll rate is not constant: it goes from zero (vertical) to max angular speed (degrees/second) by half the lean angle to zero again at final lean angle.

Yes, the article inaccurately cites the experiments and findings of Tony Foale about curve entry and body steering.
The chapter 4 of his book clearly explains the slowness and limits in final lean angle of body steering due to the long chain of complicated reactions that it induces.
Slowness and quick-flick do not match.

Decisive and strong but smooth counter-steering is the way to master quick-flick.
Good "grounding" of legs on the bike and arms force on the right direction are key.
Then, the finesse of precise stopping of the roll rate and keeping the upper body low.

I have located this article and schematics that I have found helpful:
http://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-p...he-quick-turn/

[adouglas]

Interesting chart, Hernan.

So the quick flick is a sharp push on the bars that lasts only an eye blink? Looks like PUSH-then-hooolllldddd, lowering the pressure in inverse proportion to lean angle (i.e. as lean angle increases, bar pressure steadily decreases... assuming that "rider input torque" is referring to bar pressure).

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Decisive and strong but smooth counter-steering is the way to master quick-flick.
Good "grounding" of legs on the bike and arms force on the right direction are key.
Then, the finesse of precise stopping of the roll rate and keeping the upper body low.

I have located this article and schematics that I have found helpful:
http://www.ridinginthezone.com/the-p...he-quick-turn/

Agree that decisive and strong counter-steering action is the way to master the quick flick and that a stable lower body and direct force on the arms is imperative.

What I'm not sure I'm understanding is the idea of stopping the roll rate. Can you explain exactly what you mean by that?

And good article link too

Originally Posted by adouglas

Interesting chart, Hernan.

So the quick flick is a sharp push on the bars that lasts only an eye blink? Looks like PUSH-then-hooolllldddd, lowering the pressure in inverse proportion to lean angle (i.e. as lean angle increases, bar pressure steadily decreases... assuming that "rider input torque" is referring to bar pressure).

Quick flick is a sharp push on the bars that lasts and eye blink, yes. You push HARDER on the bar, not longer to get the bike turned quickly. But then what? What do you do once the bike is at the lean angle you desire?

M

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

What I'm not sure I'm understanding is the idea of stopping the roll rate. Can you explain exactly what you mean by that?

Quick flick is a sharp push on the bars that lasts and eye blink, yes. You push HARDER on the bar, not longer to get the bike turned quickly. But then what? What do you do once the bike is at the lean angle you desire?

I think Motofool means the "feel" difference between a lazy steer vs a quick flick steer. In the mind the of the rider, a lazy steer (slow roll rate) feels comfy, in control and can be stopped at any time vs the "free falling" feeling during a really good quick flick (fast roll rate) which may leave a rider guessing at the lean angle their bike will end up with. It's kinda like traction, at first it's kinda sketchy... with some experience, the rider feels out how much harder to push through a bit of training, repetition and a whole lot of subconscious intuition.

Once I explained it like that, the light bulb came on. I shook (article author) Ken's hand talked with him for a bit, cool and level headed guy. I like how he doesn't just pop off with an answer, he makes sure he understands the questions first.

EDIT: Crap... Misti, I just reread that last part about Ken. I didn't mean that in any relation to your responses, sorry.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Interesting chart, Hernan.

So the quick flick is a sharp push on the bars that lasts only an eye blink? Looks like PUSH-then-hooolllldddd, lowering the pressure in inverse proportion to lean angle (i.e. as lean angle increases, bar pressure steadily decreases... assuming that "rider input torque" is referring to bar pressure).

That is how I understand it myself.
Note the small movement of the handlebar, just a couple of degrees (at 60 mph).

Also note that the bar pressure remains applied even when the handlebar returns from that max deflection, prove that the rider is fighting the self-balancing tendency of the bike while a new state of balance is reached (leaned to the angle that corresponds with the speed and radius of turn).

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

........... What I'm not sure I'm understanding is the idea of stopping the roll rate. Can you explain exactly what you mean by that?

I cannot explain exactly how it happens but I believe that the bike needs the fine and precise input of the rider to "know" how many degrees to roll over.
The only tool is the handlebar.

Just like when we try to balance a rod vertically over the palm of the hand, intuitively we move the hand sideways exactly the amount needed to re-balance the rod at least for an instant.

There are two main schools of thought about this tipping over of cycles: one sees the combined gyroscopic effect of both tires as the major force stopping the roll, the other believes that the handlebar inputs do all.

Computer simulations have been done isolating each case, but each alone gives results that diverge from what actually happens in terms of speed and precision of the leaning, as well as regarding stability.

IMHO, a complicated combination of both forces, mixed with tire profiles and steering geometry, does the magic.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Motofool

IMHO, the rider and a complicated combination of both forces, mixed with tire profiles and steering geometry, does the magic.

fify

Dood... where do you find these links and graphics?

[csmith12]

Lemme add to this thread....

It feels soooooo good as a rider skill to nail the quick flick. You knee hits the tarmac in less than a second and your online and back to the throttle. It's the only way I have felt, MAXIMUM drive out of a corner.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Lemme add to this thread....

It feels soooooo good as a rider skill to nail the quick flick. You knee hits the tarmac in less than a second and your online and back to the throttle. It's the only way I have felt, MAXIMUM drive out of a corner.

Copied from chapter 12 of "ATOTW2":

"You can determine any rider's basic skill level by how well he can change directions, steer his bike, flick it in, lean it, ......"

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Lemme add to this thread....

It feels soooooo good as a rider skill to nail the quick flick. You knee hits the tarmac in less than a second and your online and back to the throttle. It's the only way I have felt, MAXIMUM drive out of a corner.

I want to learn how to do this, how do I learn how to do this right. I get that in an ideal world you tip it in quickly and decisively on the brakes and release brake pressure towards the apex then apply throttle out of the apex and bring the bike back up at the same time. I'm just not sure how to get there yet.

I know I'll get there someday, just a matter of when I'll reach that level of control. I already feel as though I have more control than most street riders, but I can still find repeated mistakes in my riding and a large portion of them can be traced back to lack of confidence and decisiveness in my turn in. As evidenced by my lazy steering before I actually turn in. I need to get myself down to one steering action per turn before it bites me.

[spooph]

wow, so no sure if this is a scientific discussion about the physics of the quick flick, or if its a technique question with all these diagrams and big words flying around....

They are helpful though if you're brain works that way...

I learned how to do the quick flick on the street, on unpopulated double lane roads with white dashes lines in between on the long boring parts of road trips... Slalom the dashed lines with your body in line with the bike - IE, don't lean off... At 20mph it's easy to dive back and forth in between the lines. At 30mph it becomes harder. At 40mph you really have to keep yourself right against the bike, and this is where the key "feelings" happen. Faster than 40mph you will really feel how hard it is to move the handlebars back and forth and will get you tired quickly. The faster you go, the harder it is. Going too fast, and therefor swerving back and forth too fast can cause all kinds of bad things to happen, but if you're goal is not to go fast, but to go as fast through the slalom as you can, it's super easy to see when to back down.

Remember, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. I think most riders focus on the smooth, and forget to speed it up as they get better... Smooth can be VERY fast...

Once you're familiar with what it takes to get the bike to transfer from side to side, you can take that to the corners, and combine with all the other skills needed for fast cornering.

Make sure there is nobody else around, on the road with you, pedestrians, birds, aliens you can scare or anything that might pose a risk to your safety. Be smart folks.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I want to learn how to do this, how do I learn how to do this right. I get that in an ideal world you tip it in quickly and decisively on the brakes and release brake pressure towards the apex then apply throttle out of the apex and bring the bike back up at the same time. I'm just not sure how to get there yet.

You and me both Ben. I wish I could give you an answer that would allow you to do it in every corner, every time. But alas.... I haven't figured it out myself yet. If I ever do, I will let ya know but don't hold your breath.

@spooph, rare is the case where smooth and fast meet in the riders mind.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

fify

Dood... where do you find these links and graphics?

Right!?! I Hernan!

Originally Posted by csmith12

Lemme add to this thread....

It feels soooooo good as a rider skill to nail the quick flick. You knee hits the tarmac in less than a second and your online and back to the throttle. It's the only way I have felt, MAXIMUM drive out of a corner.

Hell yes. Teach me coach. I mean, ma'am. Wait, um, sire?

I want to be able to do that more consistently. Some corners make it easy as hell, but overall, I struggle with that quick of a flick.

[alex.s]

haha. maddam smith.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

haha. maddam smith.

can also be pronounced as "My damn Smith"

[alex.s]

my damn smith is broke again!

[csmith12]

.... ijs

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

........... I get that in an ideal world you tip it in quickly and decisively on the brakes and release brake pressure towards the apex then apply throttle out of the apex and bring the bike back up at the same time. I'm just not sure how to get there yet.

http://www.motomom.ca/keith-code-on-...ive-interview/

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Nevertheless, it seems that only Keith Code, his school couches and our @Misti insist upon its importance for riding well.

I took coaching from Ken Hill @ Rickdiculous Racing. They talk about this too. They don't brand it as "quick flick" but basically they say how quick you lean the bike has to match how tight the turn radius is.

How it's done part is where the two schools differ greatly but I won't get into that and stir the pot.

[Misti]

So, once the rider has counter-steered the bike to the lean angle they want it at (by pressing on the handlebar) what do they do next? How do you stop the bike from leaning over any farther? You quick flick it....then what?

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by Misti

So, once the rider has counter-steered the bike to the lean angle they want it at (by pressing on the handlebar) what do they do next? How do you stop the bike from leaning over any farther? You quick flick it....then what?

Time to transfer the load to rear tire. Introduce throttle smoothly / gradually (maintenance) Throttle adds speed which counteracts gravity and balances the bike. When you see your exit, it's time to add more and more throttle as you pick the bike up (keep your body leaned but pick the bike up so you maximize tire contact patch while keeping some turn radius to make the exit)

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

......... I shook (article author) Ken's hand talked with him for a bit, cool and level headed guy. I like how he doesn't just pop off with an answer, he makes sure he understands the questions first......

http://www.ridinginthezone.com/slow-...n-thunderbolt/

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Sirref]

I took 3 things away from that video

1. I lost my fear of taking my 250 to NJMP (haven't been yet bc of fear of getting rear ended on the back straight, same issue with summit point main...I don't have that fear at mid-o or jennings though)
2. That dude is so smooth, though his downshifts sound odd. I should aim to ride smoother and more relaxed like that.
3. Jennings GP novice runs fast as hell if this is what intermediate looks like at njmp

I'd still rather take a 600+cc bike to this track than a 250 them straights are begging for >120mph speeds

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Jennings GP novice runs fast as hell if this is what intermediate looks like at njmp

Ya think? I predict that it will be even faster in Feb. Could you imagine if Mid-O's novice was like Jennings? hahahahahaha

ps.... relaxing is good.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Ya think? I predict that it will be even faster in Feb. Could you imagine if Mid-O's novice was like Jennings? hahahahahaha

To be straight up it didn't feel that much faster since it just felt like a faster track. Then I look back and realize that "Oh damn I'm borderline knee down half the time and I touched down a few times in turn 6" I was moving way faster than I was at mid-o and yet I felt like I was going slower at the same time. I'm fairly confident that I could ride in I group in most track days and be fine now which is nice

I predict I'll be faster in Feb too once I adjust to the new toy

[csmith12]

I was behind you and Floki brah. At most of the tracks I ride, that was I pace without a doubt. Having said that though, there is nothing wrong with overstaying your time in N. Do NOT switch groups until you feel 100% ready and if there is any question if you are ready, then the answer is you aint.

[Sirref]

That's the mentality I've been running with and it's been working in my favor so far

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

That's the mentality I've been running with and it's been working in my favor so far

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Misti

So, once the rider has counter-steered the bike to the lean angle they want it at (by pressing on the handlebar) what do they do next? How do you stop the bike from leaning over any farther? You quick flick it....then what?

Originally Posted by Gurk

Time to transfer the load to rear tire. Introduce throttle smoothly / gradually (maintenance) Throttle adds speed which counteracts gravity and balances the bike. When you see your exit, it's time to add more and more throttle as you pick the bike up (keep your body leaned but pick the bike up so you maximize tire contact patch while keeping some turn radius to make the exit)

Yes absolutely, you roll on the gas asap once the bike is turned but what do you do with the pressure on the handlebars? Do you continue pressing on the bar throughout the entire turn or do you counter-steer into the turn and then STOP pressing the bar and then roll on the gas?

M

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Misti

Yes absolutely, you roll on the gas asap once the bike is turned but what do you do with the pressure on the handlebars? Do you continue pressing on the bar throughout the entire turn or do you counter-steer into the turn and then STOP pressing the bar and then roll on the gas?

M

don't know if it's right, but i'm basically completely off the bars after i'm done putting the bike down/turning in. once i start rolling on hard the bike settles onto the rear and that seems to slowly pick it up a little bit. once i am able to (as in i wont run off the track doing so), i pick up the bike slowly by pulling the inside bar just a little bit so i can get on the gas harder. its not a big deal on the 250 though because it has basically no power, so the roll on happens pretty quickly and then you're waiting for the redline. i try to get up at least half way lean angle before i do an upshift. shifting too early makes the rear slide if you don't get it perfect.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Misti

Yes absolutely, you roll on the gas asap once the bike is turned but what do you do with the pressure on the handlebars? Do you continue pressing on the bar throughout the entire turn or do you counter-steer into the turn and then STOP pressing the bar and then roll on the gas?

M

I would have to say stop.

Countersteering is what makes the bike flop over in the first place... so logically, continuing with the pressure will make it flop over further.

In other words, countersteering initiates the turn. If you relax, you're not turning the bike any more. It's at steady state, tracking around a circle (assuming you've got maintenance throttle). More countersteering would add more lean/turn until, ultimately, you fall down and go boom.

The way I picture countersteering is that you're making the wheel "trip" and start to fall over. Once that happens, if you relax the wheel will come back and start tracking around the turn all by itself... because of caster effect (trail).

The mental image I have is of a coin rolling along. "Steer" it to the left but keep it moving straight ahead (which it will want to do because it's got inertia) and it's easy to see how it will fall over to its right -- in the direction opposite the steer. Carry the image further and remove the steering input, and you can see how caster will make it return to equilibrium... but because we're now leaned, steering geometry will naturally make it track around the turn.

But continue the steering input and it just wants to keep falling.....

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by adouglas

But continue the steering input and it just wants to keep falling.....

unless your trail is messed up by something like incorrect or completely worn out tires or bad tire pressure or incorrect suspension setup

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

Yes absolutely, you roll on the gas asap once the bike is turned but what do you do with the pressure on the handlebars? Do you continue pressing on the bar throughout the entire turn or do you counter-steer into the turn and then STOP pressing the bar and then roll on the gas?

M

I'd say you maintain your pressure once your lean is set. Look, lean, believe. Most of the time, the "believe" step is the most difficult, resulting in tension or other SRs. Once your lean is set and your bike is heading toward your next visual point, you do not continue adding pressure, right? At that point (or earlier), you're steadily on the gas.

[adouglas]

If you have a bicycle, go hold it upright and then lean it over without touching the handlebars. What happens to the front wheel?

Short answer... it deflects in the direction of the lean. It WANTS to track around the curve, with no intervention at all. Countersteering gets it there, but doesn't keep it there.

That's why continuing to counter steer will make the bike lean more and more until.....

[Sirref]

^agreed with above, especially @alex.s who summed it up exactly as I believe the ideal to be. I feel that steering is one of my strengths as a rider once I sort out my visual skills.