Racing tricks

[AwDang]

WOW! you people just take 250 club racing way to serious for me. Y'all have fun now yahear!

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by Somchai

You for sure must not worry about my level of IQ, also not with giving me a dislike to my post.

[bruce71198]

Come on guys! Lets not loose track of who we are, The Friendliest Ninja Forum on the Net.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Come on guys! Lets not loose track of who we are, The Friendliest Ninja Forum on the Net.

Them's fightin words, “No more gentleman’s stuff, from now on you fights my way … dirty!”

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Come on guys! Lets not loose track of who we are, The Friendliest Ninja Forum on the Net.

19,541 out of 19,543 members found this post helpful. The other 2 will hopefully, too.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

19,541 out of 19,543 members found this post helpful. The other 2 will hopefully, too.

Except nobody marked it helpful.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by tgold

I believe we're not really that far apart in our thinking except for maybe this: Starting out with a bike that has properly set up suspension almost always increases a new rider's confidence and makes the process of learning to go faster much more enjoyable. I remember riding many crappy handling racebikes before I hopped on a Honda RS125. Incredible feel and instant confidence boost. It made cornering faster a mush less stressful task.

BTW, I went to CSS at Road America in 1985

Agreed as well. I always suggest finding baseline suspension settings and setting up the bike to the riders weight as a start. But I just get tired of hearing newer riders talking about how they are adjusting this and adjusting that and buying new springs and trick parts etc when they don't even know how to ride. Set up the bike with good basic settings, invest in your own riding so that you are capable of riding well and reasonably fast and THEN tweak the suspension or you could end up riding around in circles.

I clearly remember one of my first AMA races riding around in practice and feeling like the bike wasn't doing what I wanted it do and feeling frustrated at everything. I came in and told Eric Dorn my crew chief that the bike was handling poorly and that he should make some changes and he looked me in the eye and said, "Go faster, then we'll talk suspension." Um, ok. So I did. Worked awesome :dance cool:

The whole point I'm trying to make here is that lots of people seem willing to drop $$ on parts and suspension and trying to make the BIKE fast but then they balk at the idea of spending $$ on a quality riding school.

[SLOWn60]

You just don't understand the importance of farkles, Misti!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

You just don't understand the importance of farkles, Misti!

Stickers add +5hp

[Floki]

I started this thread mainly because I am a total noob to racing, well not total anymore. But doing races on my bike I noticed that almost every other bike was considerably faster than mine in the straights of Barber. I just wanted some input on how to make the bike perform better, faster which most of you have been plenty helpful.

I've cleaned my calipers, removed the gauges and and installed aluminum stay, replaced the battery with lithium, ordered 415 chain w/ aluminum sprockets, removed the key ignition, removed locking gas cap, removed radiator fan, removed brackets, SBK reservoir, speedo sensor removed,

Resistance when rolling the tires is SIGNIFICANTLY less on both wheels

I just need to continue working on dropping some weight off of myself. I could definitely drop 15lb or so.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by Misti

Agreed as well. I always suggest finding baseline suspension settings and setting up the bike to the riders weight as a start. But I just get tired of hearing newer riders talking about how they are adjusting this and adjusting that and buying new springs and trick parts etc when they don't even know how to ride. Set up the bike with good basic settings, invest in your own riding so that you are capable of riding well and reasonably fast and THEN tweak the suspension or you could end up riding around in circles.

I clearly remember one of my first AMA races riding around in practice and feeling like the bike wasn't doing what I wanted it do and feeling frustrated at everything. I came in and told Eric Dorn my crew chief that the bike was handling poorly and that he should make some changes and he looked me in the eye and said, "Go faster, then we'll talk suspension." Um, ok. So I did. Worked awesome :dance cool:

The whole point I'm trying to make here is that lots of people seem willing to drop $$ on parts and suspension and trying to make the BIKE fast but then they balk at the idea of spending $$ on a quality riding school.

Well, there is always that guy who puts top shelf suspension on his bike and then raves about how great it is. I remember my brother-in-law Brad telling me about a dude who was waxing poetic about his new Ohlins shock. So Brad thinks "I'm going to put a clock on this guy". It turned out that the guy was so slow he could've done the same lap times with a solid strut bolted in there.

[AwDang]

Originally Posted by Floki

I started this thread mainly because I am a total noob to racing, well not total anymore. But doing races on my bike I noticed that almost every other bike was considerably faster than mine in the straights of Barber. I just wanted some input on how to make the bike perform better, faster which most of you have been plenty helpful.

I've cleaned my calipers, removed the gauges and and installed aluminum stay, replaced the battery with lithium, ordered 415 chain w/ aluminum sprockets, removed the key ignition, removed locking gas cap, removed radiator fan, removed brackets, SBK reservoir, speedo sensor removed,

Resistance when rolling the tires is SIGNIFICANTLY less on both wheels

I just need to continue working on dropping some weight off of myself. I could definitely drop 15lb or so.

Get it on a dyno and dial in the carbs

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by tgold

Well, there is always that guy who puts top shelf suspension on his bike and then raves about how great it is. I remember my brother-in-law Brad telling me about a dude who was waxing poetic about his new Ohlins shock. So Brad thinks "I'm going to put a clock on this guy". It turned out that the guy was so slow he could've done the same lap times with a solid strut bolted in there.

Near the end of last season I scored a well-loved R6 track bike with aaalllll the goodies on it for a great price. I got to ride it for one track day.

Yeah, I was slow and left a whole lot on the table in terms of potential.

But it sure did feel good.

I experienced the upgrades as sure-footed (sure-tired?) confidence, rather than speed. And ultimately, the latter comes from the former. What's that Code quote? Something about speed through the corner being limited by the rider's confidence....

But I have to go with Misti on this one. Skill, skill and more skill is where it's at.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

What's that Code quote? Something about speed through the corner being limited by the rider's confidence....

You know I would know this.

TOTWII - Chapter 17

"The route to confidence to turn entry speed is nothing more or less than faith in your own ability to get the bike turned quick enough." - Keith Code

I already posted this in some other thread. If you're up against a rider with nearly equal skill but you can't get by them, out steer them. No fancy mods needed, higher entry speed + earlier roll on = imma pass you, it's just a matter of time and where.

[tgold]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Near the end of last season I scored a well-loved R6 track bike with aaalllll the goodies on it for a great price. I got to ride it for one track day.

Yeah, I was slow and left a whole lot on the table in terms of potential.

But it sure did feel good.

I experienced the upgrades as sure-footed (sure-tired?) confidence, rather than speed. And ultimately, the latter comes from the former. What's that Code quote? Something about speed through the corner being limited by the rider's confidence....

But I have to go with Misti on this one. Skill, skill and more skill is where it's at.

I'm not arguing that developing your skills on the bike is important. Skill is not a "trick". It is something that takes time and effort to develop and therefore rider skill is not the point of this thread.

I'm also well aware that much of the time in the novice ranks, a rider's rider skill level is a major factor in a race. But the facts are that the tougher the competition is, the more the bike matters. Then you eventually get to a point where it does not matter how much skill you have on the bike, you are not going to win. Floki is already having to work harder at beating others due to the level of bike preparation that he currently has.

It takes skill gained by personal experience or through the experience of others to prepare race-winning bikes. Much of that preparation does not take a lot of money if you know what you are doing. I'm pretty sure that is the point of this thread.


If you want to win, you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by tgold

It takes skill gained by personal experience or through the experience of others to prepare race-winning bikes. Much of that preparation does not take a lot of money if you know what you are doing. I'm pretty sure that is the point of this thread.

I also am pretty sure, Floki just wanted to limit this thread to the hardware bits to set his bike up as best he could.

I am just still surprised that nobody has commented "all balls". /run&hide hahahahahaha

[adouglas]

I'm telling you guys, post 26 is where it's at. Gives you extra yut-uggghhhhh and better braaap.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...0&postcount=26

[SLOWn60]

Balls!

[Floki]

Is there any point to ceramic bearings? I know woodcraft sells a set for our bike

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Floki

Is there any point to ceramic bearings? I know woodcraft sells a set for our bike

imho, no. But then again I run a r6 with no damper at silly paces... ymmv. Now, I also understand that in an endurance race, if you can take 1lb out of the effort to steer because of the improvement in the bearings. Then that last lap may not be 100% hard, just 99.1% hard. hahhahaha

[bruce71198]

One thing I know is that drive onto the front strait at any track is key on a Ninja250. Pipe it, jet it, get rid of the snorkel and the other mods you mentioned and you should be good.

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by AwDang

They can



The wining expert at the 2015 GNF was 4sec off of the 250 track record. I own the bike that set the that track record @Barber. It was rider skill.

What is the track record at Barber?

[SLOWn60]

I @Floki; all those little bits you've mentioned and more will contribute to a bike capable of going a wee bit faster but I hope it's getting through that the real time savings are in the fine tuning of the rider. I'm sure you can see it even at your own club racing: there's a rider or three that can beat everyone else no matter what junk they're astride! Old school was to learn it the hard way and then only if you had a natural talent and balls to the wall attitude.

Now if you want to just have fun on the track you just go ride but if you want to be serious then you need to study & perfect the science of riding.

To get the drive onto the straight you need to be set up in the middle of the turn and to do that you need to brake & enter the turn. There is a method to to it and no matter what your level; good coaching will get you there faster!

The 250 class is a perfect barometer of how good your skills are: it's not about power and the thickest machine; it's about the rider that knows how to go fast! It's about training you, not throwing money at the machine.

That's not to say you won't enjoy riding a well, all around tuned 250 but you won't get the results you seek unless you develop your riding skills even if you're the hottest new racer on the track.

You may have several years experience and perhaps a few race schools under your belt too but coaching never ends. Look at any best in the world athlete/competitor; there is an on going coaching structure behind them.

Of course; you have to consistently practice what you learn too! Bad habits quickly resurface. Good coaching sets you back on a winning line!

From my two thumbs & a phone: gimme a break if it rambles a bit!

P.s. All kinds of riders blast past me in the straights on their 600's both in the dry & rain but I spank them on my 250 in the corners. I weigh 350 lbs and they weigh 150. My bike has had the carbs rejetted (not dyno'd) and my suspension done: Ohlins in the rear and a simple emulator in the front. Springs of course but that's about it except for Pirelli's

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Floki

......... But doing races on my bike I noticed that almost every other bike was considerably faster than mine in the straights of Barber. I just wanted some input on how to make the bike perform better, faster which most of you have been plenty helpful...........

If you are competing with similar Ninja's 250 and those go considerably faster than yours in the straights, your engine is just not delivering all the torque it is able of.
Dyno reads of those bikes would be much higher than the read of your bike (the torque curve would reach much smaller peak).
There is no aluminum sprocket or sophisticated suspension that could compensate for that difference.

Again, when you are moving at more or less constant speed, there are only two forces pulling your bike back: air resistance and internal friction of all the moving parts: weight has almost nothing to do with the speed you can reach.
Both forces grow squarely respect to the speed, but the same is happening to those other bikes that are leaving you behind.
Cleverly reducing both is one of the tricks you are looking for.

When you are accelerating, there is an additional force pulling you back: that one is 100% based on weight (yours+fuel+bike).
The lighter combo will always get a better position, the more tight turns in the track, the more pronounced the advantage will be.

There is only one force pushing yours and those bikes forward: the force with which the engine pulls that chain.
That force is named, called and measured as torque at the crankshaft.
That force is generated in the form of pressure in the two combustion chambers of your engine.

That pressure is higher when:
1) The combustion is at its best mix of air+fuel ratio, and .........
2) More mass of that ideal air+fuel mix can be packed into that chamber just before the spark jumps, and ..........
3) More mass of the after-combustion gases can be evacuated from that chamber just before the valves close up (they are useless and occupy precious volume that the fresh mix could take), and ..........
4) The gas's leaks of the cylinder via rings, valve's seals and valves are minimum, and ..........
5) The average temperature in the cylinder is kept as high as metals and oil can resist.

Cleverly increasing that pressure is the second and last of the tricks you are looking for.

[CC Cowboy]

Fortunately, some people have natural talent. Unfortunately, some people will never have talent. With talent comes speed much easier. Without talent people try everything they can afford but never get fast. Figure out which group (talent or no talent) you fit into and then go out and have fun. Even the guys that aren't fast have fun on the track.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Floki

But doing races on my bike I noticed that almost every other bike was considerably faster than mine in the straights of Barber.

Post apex exit drive matters. Think about it brah... I was on my 250 following you on your r1. So imho, who bike weighs 3lbs more or less can be made up elsewhere. tgold has a point, do what others are not willing to do, it's not just in the hardware.

[SLOWn60]

Hernan reminded me of one of the simplest and cheapest adjustments you can make: make sure you have the right gearing for the track!
One rule of thumb is to be bumping the rev limiter just as you're about to roll off the throttle at the end of the longest straight.
And make sure you're set up in the right gear for your exit!

[bruce71198]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Post apex exit drive matters.

All drives matter

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by bruce71198

All drives matter

Of course, that little bit on each exit can keep a lead or push one even further.

[SLOWn60]

@Floki; some here may know your track/race experience but others like me may be incorrectly assuming your level of experience on the track!
What I mean is we or at least I may wrongly assume you are relatively new to racing.
Can you give us a little background?

[Floki]

First trackday on an R1 back in Nov 2014 was super slow, ask @Sirref and @csmith12

Did NOLA in sept with stt bumped from nov thru advanced

4 seconds off the lil tally record with a 1st and 2 2nd's that weekend in october

7 seconds off the barber record with a 3rd and 1st national (novice) championship win

Ran 1:34's in the endurance races at jennings but I was missing half my ass from a suit failure during a crash in practice, and also wasn't on my bike and didn't want to wreck.

I have confidence in my skills and know that the majority of going faster from here on out is my ability as a rider. I was just looking for insight on how to make my bike as competitive as feasibly possible.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by Floki

First trackday on an R1 back in Nov 2014 was super slow, ask @Sirref and @csmith12

Did NOLA in sept with stt bumped from nov thru advanced

4 seconds off the lil tally record with a 1st and 2 2nd's that weekend in october

7 seconds off the barber record with a 3rd and 1st national (novice) championship win

Ran 1:34's in the endurance races but I was missing half my ass from a suit failure during a crash in practice, and also wasn't on my bike and didn't want to wreck.


I have confidence in my skills and know that the majority of going faster from here on out is my ability as a rider. I was just looking for insight on how to make my bike as competitive as feasibly possible.

Gotcha!
I'll stand by what I've said but it ain't your first rodeo!
You're entering the "How to end your racing with a million dollars: start with three!"

[Floki]

Thanks @SLOWn60

Everyone in here is giving solid advice that I'm taking in

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Floki

First trackday on an R1 back in Nov 2014 was super slow, ask @Sirref and @csmith12

Ran 1:34's in the endurance races at jennings but I was missing half my ass from a suit failure during a crash in practice, and also wasn't on my bike and didn't want to wreck.

I have confidence in my skills and know that the majority of going faster from here on out is my ability as a rider. I was just looking for insight on how to make my bike as competitive as feasibly possible.

Will not confirm, he was pretty quick for a first timer. Definitely a lot faster now but he didn't start as the slowest guy out there by any means.

1:34s wasn't bad, I thought we were around the same pace there. This confirms that

Your 250 is already pretty damn good, especially on the brakes thanks to the caliper rebuild you did. I had a lot of confidence on it other than the rear feeling a bit off compared to the other 250s I rode that weekend (gsxr shock isn't ideal but it definitely gets the job done) I'd say the bike is good to go other than being down on power (which was probably because of the oil in the air filter)

[Floki]

The oil was from the crash at jennings, it was like that at the GNF.

[csmith12]

1:34's at Jennings is better than many riders on "whatever" they are riding. lol To pull it off on a 250 is movin' pretty good. Your 1 1/2yrs into this, let it come to you vs chasing it.

Hell man, I aint much faster, and you know.... I am riding mostly stock bits when it comes to under the covers. Aside of the normal, clipons, rearsets, exhaust, springs, rear shock, tires, track fairings, side stand delete. If you take under my fairings, you will still see the street turn signal wires. hahahahah Hell, the factory air filter is still there.

Now what?

[Sirref]

Yeah, I'd say we both have a good deal of pride from how we rode that weekend. At the same time neither of us were really satisfied with it and wished we had been able to go faster.

I've seen videos of guys on 600s in I group mock races not even pulling those times there

[csmith12]

"I was there when" Ya'lls left with a smile and 0% rash on the fairings. That is what really matters and with enough back to back trips without issue, you will see you lap times drop like mad, as you very well know yourself.

"Seen videos?!?!?!?" Again, we were their.

[Sirref]

I meant the endurance race weekend and comparing off of that

but that weekend was a lot of fun too, especially the mock races

[AwDang]

Floki, come to the 2/6 weekend at JGP. More seat time is betterer.
Looking at the enduro, you're only 4-5 sec down on skill / confidence level. That's really close and just takes time. Oh, and fresh tires at the GNF!