December 26th, 2020, 04:17 PM | #1 |
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Won't run after jet kit
Having issues getting my new gen to run after some mods. Installed a DJ stage 2 jet kit, Kleen delete, full Area-P exhaust, K&N filter and removed the snorkel. Bike will pop and even shot a flame out the exhaust but won't run. Took the carbs off again to make sure the kit was installed correctly and all seems good: DJ needle with e-clip on 3rd groove, 2 washers above the e-clip, DJ-098 main jet installed and mixture screw 3 turns out. Same problem after re-assembly. I pulled the plugs and they did have some gas on them but didn't look soaked. Any idea on what I'm missing?
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December 26th, 2020, 09:42 PM | #2 |
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You changed too many things at once. Something went wrong, but it's impossible to say what that is since it could be more than one thing. Restore your bike back to 100% bone-stock and verify it works 100% like stock. Most likely it will not, as something got tweaked. Fix whatever that is, wiring, vaccumn-leaks, carb-refurb (not just cleaning), etc.
Once bike is running like off showroom-floor in 100% bone-stock config, do only ONE upgrade at time and fine-tune on dyno to verify proper AFR before moving to next upgrade. Do in this order: 1. Kleen-air and EVAP removal first as it doesn't affect intake air-flow or AFR. Verify bike runs just like stock after this step. There's A LOT of vacuum-hoses that must be removed or capped-off to ensure proper carb operation. If not done properly, bike will run like sh*t at this stage. 2. snorkel remove and K&N filter. Bike should feel slightly crisper than stock now. 3. jet-kit, use clip #2 position (one down from top), DJ #96 mains, leave mixture-screws @ 2.5-turns out. Low-end flow is same as stock, no need to change anything. Do 5 dyno-runs, toss out highest & lowest. average rest and draw plot with AFR. Post that chart here for review. Might need to adjust needle or mains before progressing to next upgrade. 4. Area-P full exhaust last. Do more dyno-runs and analyse AFR after each one, adjust as necessary. Most likely AFR will be in super-rich 10:1 range. Target 13.5:1 AFR under WOT in high-end for max-power. Might want to aim for 12.5-13.0:1 for more safety in case of bad petrol, or super-hot day. Won't sacrifice too much power, but gain A LOT in safety. I started out with this exact list of mods from stock on my race-bike. Except with Tyga exhaust for +1.5bhp over Area-P. My sponsor Spears spent 1/2-day doing at least 20 dyno-runs and pulled carbs several times to downsize mains to dial it in. You want to be extremely careful when doing mods like this, because risks of destroying engine are great. Very first step is to verify bike is running perfectly in 100% bone-stock condition with fully-refurbed carbs. A lot of people use jet-kits as way to avoid carb-restoration to factory-fresh clean condition, but that never ends well. I tried that trick 25-years ago with my 1st bike and unbeknownst to me, one of carbs had dirty clogged fuel-circuit. I just threw in exhaust and jets and ended up with this: Now I'm fastidious about checking AFR. I use TechEdge fully-digital wideband O2-sensor with on-board datalogging to verify my AFRs are spot-on after every mod. Also to verify dyno-calibrations, I don't trust many of them. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 26th, 2020 at 11:42 PM. |
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December 27th, 2020, 07:15 AM | #3 |
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As Danno noted - that's a lot of changes at one time.
I tend to think there is something not right in the carbs. Not a fan of DynoJet kits with proprietary numbering. Seems like you are dumping in too much fuel from the sound of it. Check the enrichment circuit, float levels, and make sure the slides are fully seating. If the needles are hanging-up in the jets, or the slides are not seated, you would be dumping fuel. I'd go back to the stock jets for starters. It may not be that far off. The way to really know what's going on is the dyno and AF ratio. |
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December 27th, 2020, 09:26 AM | #4 |
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Danno, thank you for the detailed reply! What you describe is logically the right way to troubleshoot this. I did start with the bike I didn't know the history on and didn't really have it running perfect in stock form. I did the exact same mods with my previous newgen 250 track bike but with a Tyga...that all worked great but I had months of riding it stock and it ran perfectly. Well, we all know what happens when you assume...
Thanks Jay for your input as well. I do have a set of extra set of bone stock carbs for a newgen that I know work great and before I go back to logical square 1, I'm going to swap the jet kit over to that set and give it a shot. |
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December 27th, 2020, 10:39 AM | #5 | |
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Quote:
Danno would know better, but I didn't think it would run terrible with the stock jetting and your set-up. Not perfect, but decent. You could also just put the snorkel and stock air filter in while you are at it for testing purposes - if you wanted to get closer to Square 1. |
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December 27th, 2020, 12:36 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
Only once you've restored bike to 100% showroom condition should you embark on mods. Otherwise, risks of engine damages are great. You'll also not get maximum benefits of any mods if carbs aren't fully restored to start with. |
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December 27th, 2020, 01:29 PM | #7 |
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December 27th, 2020, 08:18 PM | #8 |
Rev Limiter
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January 18th, 2021, 05:27 PM | #9 |
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Going completely back to stock...is the stock mixture screw setting 2 1/2 left and 1 3/4 right?
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January 18th, 2021, 06:46 PM | #10 |
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"Bike will pop and even shot a flame out the exhaust but won't run."
unmetered fuel is somehow entering the combustion chamber, beyond the intended circuits. Your proposed initial settings should allow running, provided the carb fuel circuits are truly clear. A functioning, clean and adjusted float system rather important as well.
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January 18th, 2021, 08:04 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
While I was putting in the jet kit, I pulled the main jets, needles, emulsion tubes, pilot jets, and mixture screws. Cleaned all and shot air through the passages. I'm stumped. |
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January 18th, 2021, 09:27 PM | #12 |
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fuel reaching bowls confirmed?
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January 19th, 2021, 12:15 AM | #13 |
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which carbs are in bike?
I suggest putting in carbs that were originally on bike when it was running better in stock trim. Idea is not to fix anything, but restore configuration to exact one that was running better. Currently there's something different about this set-up. |
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January 19th, 2021, 01:58 PM | #14 |
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January 19th, 2021, 02:00 PM | #15 | |
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Quote:
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January 19th, 2021, 04:45 PM | #16 | |
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Quote:
1. air & compression - not likely that changed so suddenly. Unless it sucked in sock used to cover intake-ports when carbs were off. - PAIR vacuum-hose connected between PAIR-valve and rubber-T to carb vacuum-port? - PAIR air-hose connected to air-box? 2. spark -you've confirmed you've got spark with new plugs, so we can rule out ignition issues 3. fuel - is only thing left. Whatever changed from stock to cause this issue occurred previously during upgrades install. And assuming stock jets and parts are OK going back in... there must be something non-stock with carbs that was not there before jet-kit install.... Well, might even be something when installing other upgrades, but I'm going to assume for now that it's carb-related. Putting my race-bike back together now... keep this on back-burner while I handle parts... BTW - did you ever swap in spare-carbs when bike was still in upgraded config? |
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January 21st, 2021, 02:47 PM | #17 |
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Well it runs. Just for sh*ts and giggles I threw on the old spark plugs and it fired right up. I checked the gap on the new plugs I installed and they were .031 and .033...guess one was a tiny bit on the plus side but I would think it should have still run. Don't think I've ever hear of anything being wrong with new plugs
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January 21st, 2021, 07:52 PM | #18 | |
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Quote:
Hmmm interesting... I use NGK CR8E plugs @ 0.032" gap on my race bike without any issues. You may have sub-standard ignition-system. - Might want to measure power at coils with key-ON. - Also measure resistance of primary & secondary windings on coil. - Measure resistance of hi-ten wires. - Check out Jim's post about coil-polarity: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...45#post1281145 What brand & model plugs were old ones that's working? What brand & model plugs are new ones that didn't work? What gap did you end up with where they worked? Could be new plugs had been abused and dropped? Darn UPS! Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; January 21st, 2021 at 11:48 PM. |
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