Throttle control in the corner...ToTW2

[RedOctober]

I'm trying to understand exactly what Keith Code is trying to explain in ToTW on the throttle control in the corner. Good rules he's put down:

1. Once throttle is cracked on it's rolled on in smooth fashion.
2. Steering is completed before you get it on
3. Crack open the throttle as soon as possible. Which means after the lean angle is achieved and no more steering input is needed. This doesn't mean when you get to apex.
4. 40-60 rule to maintain bike suspension.

My confusion: What do I do with the throttle before the steering?
Chapter 6 has a nice diagram (which he uses to fix turn charging) that shows wide open throttle, then taper off (non-native english speaker...taper off as in reduce but not to 0?), then coast (while turning), then accelerate.
Given that "crack open" is defined as "starting from no throttle"...do I basically chop the throttle completely before leaning? This sounds counterintuitive to the 40-60 rule.

So what do I do with the throttle?
1. Approach turn. Downshift/brake as needed.
2. Throttle is applied and held constantly at some X RPM (I think this is 6-8k RPM for me). At this throttle I'm not accelerating but gently decelerating/holding steady.
3. Steer/lean into the turn
4. Smoothly roll on the throttle
5. Go past the apex and accelerate out

Does this sound about right? Sorry, to some people the book seems clear from the get-go, but I've reread it a number of times and I'm trying to figure out exactly how this works. Depending which forum I read I get different information, and then phrases like "maintenance throttle" enter the discussion which confuses even further.

Thanks...

[Xoulrath]

The term "maintenance throttle" simply means to keep the bike stable by slowly rolling on the throttle. As Mr. Code points out in his books and videos, the bike is much more stable with the throttle on as it transfers weight from front to rear. The job of the rider is to not transfer too much weight and to keep from transfering the weight too quickly.

The steps you have listed look fine. Just remember to practice rolling off smoothly in addition to rolling on smoothly. Doing either one in an abrupt manner will upset the bike.

As far as throttle off before the turn, it really depends on the gyroscopic effect of the engine, which will be more pronounced the faster the engine is spinning. So in some corners you may find it necessary to roll off entirely, while in other corners you will find that you don't need to roll off at all.

[Domagoj]

Perhaps there is too much text here, but I tried to explain the stuff the way I have it in my head. If it is too tedious and detailed I apologize.

Think about the simplified physics of the steering process on a bike to make it clear:

When you countersteer, you are turning your handlebars opposite of the direction of the turn. Let's consider left turn.
You are pusing the left bar forward to initiate a turn, and creating torque which is translated to the contact patch of your front wheel. This torque will actually turn your front wheel to the right, and the wheel will steer to the right.

Your front wheel is dealing with all the forces at this time, and you want the friction with the ground to be as good as it can be. The only way to increase friction of your contact patches while riding is to shift the weight of the bike forward-backward. You do this by decelerating-accelerating.
Therefore, while initiating the turn, you want to roll off the throttle a bit, to make the bike decelerate a little, and provide some additional pressure to your front wheel contact patch. This does not mean chop it off, as it will make you "jump" forward and destabilize the system.

This does however give an idea about trail braking, and what does it do. If you brake too much while initiating a turn, you will increase the pressure, but you will also compress your forks too much, and they will not be able to deal with irregularities of the asphalt, and may actually cause your front tire to loose contact with the ground, and therefore loose your friction catastrophically. That's why we with little skill do not try such activities too much.

Okay, we have the wheel going right. But your center of gravity (you and your bike's together), will be somewhat "late" because of inertia, and continue straight. This will make your bike lean to the left (because your wheels went on to the right and COG did not)

Now you are leaned, and your pressure on the bar is released. The bike is not "falling" to the inside anymore, because you are not pushing the bar anymore, and the moment created by your COG being offset to the left is balanced by the moment of the centripetal force moving your bike to the left. However, there is nothing balancing the centripetal force itself, and the bike changes direction to where the force is pointing (to the left).

At this time, when you are leaned, and are not making any imputs to the bars, both of your wheels work equally to keep your bike turning at constant rate.
This means that you want the weight to be distributed between the contact patches relative to their size. Rear tire is a bit bigger, therefore you want ~ 60% there, and front one is a bit smaller, and you want ~ 40%. To acchieve this, you want to roll on the throttle a little, to transfer that ~10% of the weight to the rear wheel. You also want to roll on a bit because you will be loosing speed if you don't, and it will mess up your turning radius. This roll-on makes your bike feel nice and stable and steady.

As it was with rolling off, do not open the throttle completely and abruptly, because your wheel will spin and you will loose friction again.
This is where getting the gear right is somewhat important; if your gear is too high, your revs will drop too low and the bike will not have enough power to provide that little thrust to distribute the weight. (on a ninjette, do not drop below 4k) If your gear is too low, your revs will be too high and you will have none left.

Finally, as you exit the turn, you work your handlebars slightly, and as the radius increases, so does the centripetal force decrease, and your contact patches do not have to work with so much lateral stress.

The real art is to get all this right, and quickly. That's what the racers do. And, together with many other qualities, that is what makes them damn good.

Try to practice and try it all out. Nice and easy, for starters. Roll off while you push the bars, roll on while you don't. That's why you need to have a bike to understand that book

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by Domagoj

Try to practice and try it all out. Nice and easy, for starters. Roll off while you push the bars, roll on while you don't. That's why you need to have a bike to understand that book

Great way to put it man, I'd rather have someone explain it word for word.

I have an old race track, turned county road, that I go one quite frequently. But there are some great varying turns and a chicane. But I've begun to focus on lean angle and throttle control once my crappy IRC tires warm up. But, coming up to a turn at 60-80 mph, braking hard but gradually, shifting into 3rd or 4th, let off the brake, initiate lean and turn, and at the same time give my self a 2 or a 3 count as I go through the turn(keeps me from rolling on too fast). I then accelerate out of the turn, shifting back on the seat, go into a full tuck and fly.

It's kind of hard to explain, but one of these days I want to get a couple gopro cameras and do a multi-view onboard video with commentary as I'm riding. All you see on youtube is someone just talking about it or you're just seeing a guy do it. More people would learn if they hear what the rider is doing and thinking right then and there as the action is happening.

Here's the track/county road I go on, it's 2 miles long and most of the surface is still good.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by NDspd

Great way to put it man, I'd rather have someone explain it word for word.

I have an old race track, turned county road, that I go one quite frequently. But there are some great varying turns and a chicane. But I've begun to focus on lean angle and throttle control once my crappy IRC tires warm up. But, coming up to a turn at 60-80 mph, braking hard but gradually, shifting into 3rd or 4th, let off the brake, initiate lean and turn, and at the same time give my self a 2 or a 3 count as I go through the turn(keeps me from rolling on too fast). I then accelerate out of the turn, shifting back on the seat, go into a full tuck and fly.

In your description:
- Coming up to a turn at 60-80
- Braking hard but gradually
- Shifting into 3rd or 4th
- let off the brake
- Is the throttle open at this point at all? If its closed then bike is still engine braking...?
- Initiate lean and turn
- accelerate

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

In your description:
- Coming up to a turn at 60-80
- Braking hard but gradually
- Shifting into 3rd or 4th
- let off the brake
- Is the throttle open at this point at all? If its closed then bike is still engine braking...?
- Initiate lean and turn
- accelerate

It kind of depends on the corner, if it is a faster less tight corner then I will still use some throttle to keep the speed up, but if it is a tight slow corner then I may go off the throttle (but not dump it).

Damn I need a gopro badly.

[SES2009]

Also, if you go on YouTube there is TOTW2 up for your viewing pleasure. It has seven parts and the visuals they give you may help you understand. I just watched the video yesterday and it brought a lot of clarity as to how/why things happen the way they do.

Best of luck to ya

[RedOctober]

Thanks for reminding me...I think I have a ripped video somewhere at home.
I guess I've been doing it wrong then, b/c even in sharp corners I maintain a little bit of throttle after brake/downshift, so I lean with maybe 10-20% throttle open, and then after the lean is completed I roll on. Haven't crashed yet.

[alex.s]

what i think is the "correct" way: (i screw it up every time, so its not the way i do it )
-WOT until your first marker (your own markers, not the signs)

-first marker, roll off throttle, begin applying brakes

-second marker, full brakes, no throttle

-third marker, taper off brakes as you turn in, brakes taper all the way off after all steering completed.

-back on the gas. for the 250 this usually means a quick but smooth roll to WOT. on my 600 its a slower roll on but still give it as much as it will take at this point. on most bikes it seems they will start to squirm from power well before they will really give up so just find that happy spot. you should be pointed at the exit so keep full lean until you see the next turn and you can start picking it up. on the big bikes this is where you really romp on it but you should already big close to 3/4 or wot coming out of the corner

[SES2009]

It's all about keeping the suspension in its most optimal state. You want the weight to be equally distributed between the front and back tire and that's why a steady roll on the throttle is necessary while cornering. Too lIttle throttle and the front tire is overloaded which causes the bike to stand up do you will exit the corner wide. To much throttle and you will find yourself in a power slide or worse.

Entering the corner with the correct line and speed will do wonders as well.

Bottom line is ride the bike in a way that keeps the suspension in its sweet spot. Disrupt the suspension and the bike will let you know it's not happy.

[RedOctober]

Well...I do have a problem with sometimes going wide, I'll work on that.
My hairpin turns seem to be OK with the approach I have, no slides/wides yet.
The other problem I have is going through a corner (not a hairpin, not a sweeper, medium...) too narrow. I lean, get on the throttle, and end up having to correct myself in the middle b/c I find myself creeping too far in (over the yellow line in left hand, off to the shoulder in right turns). Is that a case of not looking into the right place or leaning too much?

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by SES2009

It's all about keeping the suspension in its most optimal state. You want the weight to be equally distributed between the front and back tire and that's why a steady roll on the throttle is necessary while cornering. Too lIttle throttle and the front tire is overloaded which causes the bike to stand up do you will exit the corner wide. To much throttle and you will find yourself in a power slide or worse.

Entering the corner with the correct line and speed will do wonders as well.

Bottom line is ride the bike in a way that keeps the suspension in its sweet spot. Disrupt the suspension and the bike will let you know it's not happy.

In this case doesn't it make sense to have throttle open a little bit and holding it steady even before you initiate lean? So you flick the bike while throttle is open and constant, and then once steering is done you roll on the throttle? Otherwise, with throttle closed, you're engine braking and putting more load on the front tire...

[csmith12]

I think TOTW2 is much better in video form than it is book form. If you were to watch, it should get rid of all your questions. There is very little debate in the video, the throttle is ON (rolling on or pinned) or it's OFF (COMPLETELY closed). While braking it's OFF.

"What to do with the throttle before steering?" Simple answer is just roll off completely. With time, you will get this roll off to 1 second or under, but never chop it.

From the time you roll off and start braking, till the time you complete you turn in/flick, the throttle is considered off. The only exception to this is blipping down (rev matching) where the throttle is not used for it's normal intended purpose but instead used to keep the rear tire more in line with the quickly changing speed of the bike (improves stability and traction).

"PRACTICE YOUR ROLL OFF AS MUCH AS YOUR ROLL ON." K. Code
"BRAKES ARE CHEAP, ENGINES ARE EXPENSIVE". K. Code

So far I have only found 2 cases where the throttle is used to maintain speed or accelerate while the brakes are engaged.

1. Slow Speed Skills
2. Trailbraking

The subject of trailbraking is not covered in TOTW2. I found it easier to conquer one at a time. The material covered in the TOTW2 then come back for trailbraking.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

Well...I do have a problem with sometimes going wide, I'll work on that.
My hairpin turns seem to be OK with the approach I have, no slides/wides yet.
The other problem I have is going through a corner (not a hairpin, not a sweeper, medium...) too narrow. I lean, get on the throttle, and end up having to correct myself in the middle b/c I find myself creeping too far in (over the yellow line in left hand, off to the shoulder in right turns). Is that a case of not looking into the right place or leaning too much?

Tough question to answer without seeing you in action.

I would most likely say none of the above stated reasons are the source of your issue.

#1 rule - Once the throttle is "cracked" open, it should be rolled smoothly and continuously throughout the corner.
#2 rule - Choose a line through the corner that allows you to obey rule number 1

Assuming your bike is in perfect working order....

If you find yourself making steering corrections during a corner, you may have not chosen a good line or don't have good throttle control. Once you have found a line that works through a corner (there is normally more than 1 good line), you will be able to roll on and not need to make steering corrections. Roll on to hard and you can go wide (less weight on the front), roll on to softly you can go tight (more weight on the front).

Welcome to the science and playing with the limits of traction my friend!

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I think TOTW2 is much better in video form than it is book form. If you were to watch, it should get rid of all your questions. There is very little debate in the video, the throttle is ON (rolling on or pinned) or it's OFF (COMPLETELY closed). While braking it's OFF.

"What to do with the throttle before steering?" Simple answer is just roll off completely. With time, you will get this roll off to 1 second or under, but never chop it.

From the time you roll off and start braking, till the time you complete you turn in/flick, the throttle is considered off. The only exception to this is blipping down (rev matching) where the throttle is not used for it's normal intended purpose but instead used to keep the rear tire more in line with the quickly changing speed of the bike (improves stability and traction).

"PRACTICE YOUR ROLL OFF AS MUCH AS YOUR ROLL ON." K. Code
"BRAKES ARE CHEAP, ENGINES ARE EXPENSIVE". K. Code

So far I have only found 2 cases where the throttle is used to maintain speed or accelerate while the brakes are engaged.

1. Slow Speed Skills
2. Trailbraking

The subject of trailbraking is not covered in TOTW2. I found it easier to conquer one at a time. The material covered in the TOTW2 then come back for trailbraking.

You've hit the nail on the head...brakes are cheap, engine is expensive. When I hear about "throttle off" I immediately think "engine braking", unless the clutch is engaged but we're not going to lean, and then release the clutch, that would be even worse. So seems to me that I need to just become faster with braking and leaning, so that the time spent with closed throttle is minimized. But that also means throttle is OFF while I lean the bike, not "open a little bit".

[csmith12]

Yea, it's not an easy skill to master. I am not even close still. The general idea on the track is "if your not braking then your on the gas." Where "on the gas" means accelerating. In reality, it's tough to do and a lot of riders are lazy and engine brake to darn much.

[SES2009]

If you watch it cornering will come.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2URRu...e_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UihhN...e_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrhNh...e_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp1Za...e_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5N9e...e_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbtZQ...e_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjDet...e_gdata_player

[RedOctober]

Ok, throttle closed. Watching and listening really explains it.

[NDspd]

Now that I think if it, I do go throttle off quite a bit. It's just muscle memory for me that I forget that I do it.

[Rexbo]

Link to original page on YouTube.

Notice that under braking, throttle is off, but as soon as the brakes are released, I roll throttle on just a little bit. This settles the back end of the bike for the corner, and allows you to adjust your line without adjusting your lean angle. If I want to increase the turn radius, I give it a little more gas, this will push the front end wider. If I need to tighten up the line I can roll off just a little (meaning I've screwed up the turn anyway, you want your line to be defined by the corner entry under the brakes). On corner exit it looks like I just hammer the throttle, which is ok on the 250, but will ruin you on a big bike. Being smooth is key but luckily you can get pretty jolly with the throttle on the 250 since it is such a low power bike. With most of the really sticky tires, full throttle will be barely enough to spin up the rear wheel at full lean if you're well balanced.

[csmith12]

Great example vid Steve! That you?

[NDspd]

Awesome video!!! it would be cool if you could do a split screen of both hands

[alex.s]

so funny, those tiny little impulse brake inputs so many people do on turn in. they dont even do anything, but the fingers still always go to the brakes.

[csmith12]

Yea, I seen that too but it still a great ride, video and very appropriate for this thread. Also, since it's a 250 Steve's roll on is fast and all the way to PINNED. Try that on your 600 alex. hahahahaha don't do it, ... just kidding. I'm serious. ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ.

[Rexbo]

Originally Posted by alex.s

so funny, those tiny little impulse brake inputs so many people do on turn in. they dont even do anything, but the fingers still always go to the brakes.

That lap I was following someone so I was sort of forced to match their speed through the corners, but still filming yourself is one of the best ways to critique and learn how to improve. The stuff you don't think about that's happening becomes super obvious and it takes time to work on getting rid of bad habits.

Try it out, then watch the video about 10 times. You'll see yourself doing random stuff.

[alex.s]

lol oh no. i do. and i **** up way more **** for me to post it here

the roll on for my 600 isnt that much slower... its no super sport

[gt_turbo]

Originally Posted by alex.s

so funny, those tiny little impulse brake inputs so many people do on turn in. they dont even do anything, but the fingers still always go to the brakes.

actually tiny impulse braking does do something believe it or not. it is significant enough to cause the pads to contact the rotor and cause drag, slowing the bike just a little bit.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by gt_turbo

actually tiny impulse braking does do something believe it or not. it is significant enough to cause the pads to contact the rotor and cause drag, slowing the bike just a little bit.

im talking about the times when your fingers go on the brakes but dont do anything.