GP shift: How long did it take you to master

[Old Lemon]

So I have been thinking of converting to GP shift since there are a few turns and times (only on the track) that whilst still leaned over, i had to get my foot in the awkward position to shift as soon as i started to straighten out. Being a 250 and all, i can assume that on most tracks, GP shift will help a lot coming out of a lot of corners.

So how long did it take you guys to get comfortable with reversing your entire instinctive shifting method.

I was track only last year, but since I didn't get to go as much as I wanted I am now street legal again to cruise around between track days. So I do have the street to practice on.

[Qomomoko]

bet you'll get used to it in a full days ride..

it will be harder if you have two bikes and they have different shift set ups.
That is what I had and now I have GP shift on both of them.

[csmith12]

It won't take long, just slow down enough to account for shifting errors. In about 2 weeks or so of solid riding, you might be able to switch back and forth without much fuss.

[Somchai]

One day...

[cbinker]

not long, just remind yourself when you switch bikes that the shift pattern is different.

[Sirref]

From what I've heard everyone adjusts within a day or so of consciously shifting opposite.

[alex.s]

i have had gp shift for a few years now but i have never mastered it. i still make mistakes all the time. fewer mistakes than with standard shift though.

[rojoracing53]

I know most people who do master it tend to do so on a chassis basis, meaning sport bike position you brain switches to GP but you hop on a dirt bike and you brain switches to standard. What you won't find to often are riders who can switch pattern within a sport bike without an adaption period of at least a full practice session and they still often will make a mistake or two during extreme race conditions. As and endurance racer of all types of bike and sizes I've always change the pattern to suit the other riders best(there's many who don't use GP) because I don't need time to adapt. As soon as I click it up or down into 1st gear my brain is set and I've never gone wrong. I've come close to up shifting into a corner but somehow my left hand knows my left foot Fu**ed up and doesn't release the clutch for an instant giving me time to correct the mistake, it;s almost automatic really.

Practice makes perfect. If you just want to convert to GP then do it first thing in the weekend so your dialed for the races. If you still making mistakes at the end of the first day then you likely have other issues with on the bike focus and are probably rushing over you head around the course.

If you want to get good at going back and forth then master one(you've already done this I hope), then switch and master the other then try going back and forth between a sport bike and dirt bike for awhile. I can't put a time line on how long it took me because it was very fast but I'd say a couple session to go GP the first time and years later when I first tried standard again it seemed I didn't have an issue just swapping back.

I'm not sure if alex was serious about still making mistakes but it's a scarry thought to be on a track drafting a guy who could suddenly down shift when your 2 feet off his A$$. It could also explain why he's chunked so many motors

[ally99]

Took me about 2 sessions on my GSXR to get used to GP. Loved it!

[leed]

Getting used to it is pretty easy; it took me a ride or two to get used to it. But burning it 100% into muscle memory may take a little longer. That is, in your emergency braking situations or if you're trying to shift to first from neutral by shifting a hundred times you may accidentally shift the wrong way for a little bit.

I agree, though, it's easy to keep the two separate if the body geometries are different enough.

[Old Lemon]

so i got converted today, i like it. tried clutchless up shifting just a couple times, it felt easier and was a lot smoother, though once it did kick me back down a gear but thats user error and i just need to push the lever a bit harder so it goes in and stays in. Other than that i think a couple rides and i should be good. Thanks bros

[Proteus]

What's the point of GP shifting?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Proteus

What's the point of GP shifting?

Main reason for me is when you have steep lean angle on the left, your foot may drag when trying to upshift, it also takes time and attention mid corner. It makes sense that you do most of your downshifting while straight up and braking, so there is no foot dragging issues there.

[Proteus]

Thanks. I'm certainly nowhere near leaning over far enough but it sounds intriguing.

[Old Lemon]

@csmith12

A little off topic but with shifting, when would you say is the angle to which you deem shifting is safe as to not safe? In the MSF course i took years ago they said dont shift in the corners as you can transfer weight to the front and have it slide out. In a track scenario im sure you can shift while leaned over but how leaned over would you go to tell your self alright I cannot shift while this far over.

One of the reasons I went gp shift was because my last track day at summit point main, turn 3 is a long sweeping right hander and I would need to shift near mid corner because id bet WOT the whole time and to shift I would stand my bike back up and move my body back up right to get my foot down under the shifter. Since I have never shifted while being leaned over at any reasonable angle I thought that was the only way I could shift safely during that corner.

[cbinker]

if the shift doesn't cause an abrupt change on the chassis then its not a problem with knee on the ground. but the is a pretty jedi master move. once you are comfortable and confident, the things you can do are amazing.

there were times when i stayed a gear up and pinned the throttle through a corner. probably one of my best lap times on the 250 came from that.

[csmith12]

We have to tell MSF students that, it's part of the curriculum and packaging to not overwhelm the new riders that the course was designed for. Later and with more experience riders learn they can shift mid corner as long as the lean angle is kept in check but it isn't something that should be strived for. Under normal cornering scenarios, it's a clue that something is wrong. Like entering a corner in too low of gear and what not.

There is no magic lean number, it's a moving target Mr. Lemon. What you can get away with on a beautiful day, sticky tires on a hot track is different than an overcast day, dots and a semi wet track. On a 250, I basically follow three main rules;

Is the bike is happy?
Is rider is happy?
Have I touched a knee down yet?

If yes, yes and no... it's fairly safe to catch a shift with lean. But, please don't take that as gospel. Trust yourself and your own good judgement. Sometimes on really good days, we can shift with a knee down but again, not something to strive for and most likely something else is wrong (early turn in, overbraking, line, ect...).

I am assuming your talkin' about clutchless upshifts right? TOTWII has a little nugget in the book about "traction riders". This is where riders that ride by the feel of available traction can do things that seem to "challenge the rules". Every rider is required to have bit of "traction rider" in them (you mostly seem him/her in the wet ), use it to your advantage if you can.

Oh.. and I would look into why you can't shift while in the hang off position. Maybe you're hanging off too much or your shift lever isn't adjusted to allow for such things. We commonly get shifts at full hang off with or without a gp shift setup.

If you have seen the other thread titled "challenge me". There is a question about using the controls to your advantage, this is one of of the answers. Who benefits from the use of their controls more? A rider that shifts mid corner clutchless and quickly or a rider who pulls the clutch lever all the way? Which rider can shift with more lean angle? Who is safer while performing this "risky" input?

[Old Lemon]

i see, thanks to both of you.

my next question was indeed going to be about whether it would be safer to shift with or without the clutch. ATM my clutchless shifts are not consistent with smoothness (2 days riden on gp so it will get better)

And i dont plan to do this a lot, it was just that one corner where i felt the need to do so and it wasnt that i was physically unable to do so but rather from my limited knowledge of been told that shifting while leaned over is bad and can cause problems, i wasnt trying to take a big risk in doing so. But i did move my foot into position while leaned over and that in itself was a little difficult and i see why having gp shift is so much of a help in such a scenario.

I have watched totw2 but that was some time ago and ill probably go rewatch that bit

[csmith12]

I see where your coming from.

Let's look at it differently then. Beyond the MSF you have one goal, and only one goal as soon as you flick it into a corner. Keeping the bike stable is that goal. So if you think about it.. if you hit redline while mid corner the bike will become more unstable vs if you were rolling the throttle. Without the throttle roll the weight distro of the bike 40/60 is not maintained and the front can push, especially with a generous amount of lean. What is the standard solution to a pushing front end? Believe it or not, there is more than one solution to getting more revs, even if pinned, upshifting is just one of them.

So if the bike is already more unstable and your out of revs in a particular gear, a smooth, quick, clutchless upshift will get you back to the throttle the fastest and will minimize the instability added to the bike by your inputs. Also, it should be hand/foot movements only. You don't want to add even more instability by moving your body around. Picking the bike up a bit is an option, but you better be smooth about it and be mindful to not introduce any unneeded steering inputs or get tight on the bars.

So getting back to your question... to use the clutch lever or not for a mid corner upshift? On a n250, you can just skip it 99% of the time, a quick roll off, shift and a back on will do and the faster, the better. The other 1% is lower traction situations, such as in the wet. This again goes back to your inner "traction rider's" feel, and is especially is more applicable on bigger cc bikes or in the dirt where a little feather of the clutch is helpful to lay the power down a bit more smoothly.

The only other thing to add to shifting mid corner is electronics. Quickshifters, traction control and all that fancy stuff help here. Riders can be more aggressive with their shifts w/ lean knowing that the electronics will compensate as best they can to smooth things out.

Now.. going forward. You know about reference points for braking, turning and visual apex and exit. Ever thought about shift reference points? I don't have a lot of them but the ones I have are very important. If I miss those shift points, my lap time is nearly 2 seconds slower. Yes... it's that important.

For example;
Between turns 1 and 2 at Putnam Park in IN. I have an upshift just before the turn in marker for turn 2. If I miss that shift, my drive outta 2 is crap and the field will pull on me or the leaders will pull away as I will run outta revs on the exit while they are still driving.

If you can, pick the brain of your local fast racers in your class. Ask them if they will share some of their shift points with you. It should really help, it helped me tremendously. Many times, the new shift markers will eliminate the mid corner shifts altogether. Bonus points if you can tell me why?

[Old Lemon]

Very informative, thank you.

As for shift markers elimainating mid corner shifts, if you know you are going to run out of revs during a corner, pre emptively shift prior so that you do not.

[csmith12]