May 11th, 2019, 01:23 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
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09 ninja 250r carb hoses
trying to figure out what hose goes to plastic hose thats circled. my bike is running lean when i give it full throttle and cant seem to find where its getting extra air from |
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May 11th, 2019, 06:01 AM | #2 |
Rev Limiter
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I want to say that's an overflow hose fitting, but I can't confirm for sure.
If it is, not having a hole on it shouldn't cause the problems you are having - I wouldn't think. Do you have any mods to the engine or intake? Have you had the carbs off? |
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May 11th, 2019, 06:09 AM | #3 |
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correct, on an '08-12 that's the vent/ overflow, upper rail fitting , whatever you want to call it. Usually a hose connected to it, but must remain unplugged, free to 'breathe".
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May 11th, 2019, 06:16 AM | #4 |
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i've seen many with very loose hose ends on the 2 carb vac decel hoses that go between the carbs...shown in your pic to the right
May be worth a check, as they get hotter, they get looser and would create a vac leak right at the fitting Ditto the hoses on top of the decel valve, check to assure they are tight and not sloppy loose
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May 11th, 2019, 02:32 PM | #5 |
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has full exhaust on it and has the stage 3 jetting kit on it as well as k&n air filter. the bike ran fine when i got but one day i was riding and my air fuel ratio drop to 9 when i give it full throttle. this is the second time ive had the carbs off and nothing seems to be clogged
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May 11th, 2019, 03:33 PM | #6 | |
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May 11th, 2019, 03:54 PM | #7 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
What jets are you running? What brand of jet kit? How do the plugs look? |
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May 11th, 2019, 03:55 PM | #8 |
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May 11th, 2019, 04:00 PM | #9 |
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i know i was running lean cause of my wideband sensor. i was told it had a stage 3 jet kit and i seen that it had a 110 on the side of the main jet i beleive and ill get a pic of the plugs here soon
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May 11th, 2019, 04:21 PM | #10 |
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spark plugs
heres the spark plugs
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May 11th, 2019, 05:03 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
http://www.afrplus.com/AFRplus-unit-functionality.asp https://www.enginebuildermag.com/200...fuel-equation/ Those plugs were not chopped and not accurate as it incorporates average of idle, steady-state and WOT throttle. You'll want to install brand-new fresh plugs. Then run WOT throttle for about 1/8-mile and turn OFF engine via kill-switch at same time as chopping throttle and squeezing clutch. Brake to stop quickly as transmission requires engine-running for lubrication. Then pull plugs. Even better, if you've got wideband, does it have datalogging? Very easy to record data and plot some graphs to analyse. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 11th, 2019 at 06:58 PM. |
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May 11th, 2019, 05:57 PM | #12 | |
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May 11th, 2019, 06:35 PM | #13 | |
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Quote:
Warmer air (heated by warmer engine) is less dense, so fewer oxygen molecules per stroke. Yet same amount of fuel will result in richer mixture of 9:1. Which causes lazier burn and sluggish throttle response. Not to mention that much fuel will wash oil from cylinder walls and cause premature wear on engine. BTW - 9:1 AFR is at limit for rich end of wideband sensor, so you may actually have richer than that mixtures. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; May 11th, 2019 at 07:38 PM. |
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May 11th, 2019, 06:52 PM | #14 |
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Some background on AFR tuning. Stoich mixture is 14.7:1 AFR; which is 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel by mass. This results in cleanest burn with most of fuel and air combusted. Highest combustion temperatures and lowest combination of emissions gasses:
However, this really only works at partial-throttle steady-speed cruising with plenty of time for combustion. When you open up throttle and want more power for passing and acceleration, we want slightly richer 12:1 to 13.5:1 ratio. Why? Because of space and volume and incomplete mixing of fuel and air. Due to incomplete atomisation and dispersion of petrol in combustion chamber, there are areas with leaner and and some areas richer than 14.7:1 ratios. This results in some areas with extra oxygen molecules with no fuel to combust with. So a little extra fuel is needed to supplement lean spots to ensure that all oxygen has matching fuel for maximum combustion pressure (BMEP). However, too much fuel is no good either as extra petrol cools and slows down combustion, resulting in incomplete combustion and lower cylinder pressure and power. On carbed engines this max-power enriched mixture is around 12.5-13.0:1 AFR. Fuel-injected engines gets max-power around 13.0-13.5:1 AFR due to better fuel-atomisation. Newer direct-injected engines have even better mixing and can maintain 14.0-14.7:1 AFR under WOT for maximum power. |
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May 11th, 2019, 09:04 PM | #15 |
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Here's photo of carb-vent hose routing. It should go up and down between intake tubes from airbox and out around rear-shock. There's a hose-routing loop down there somewhere with vent-tube from crankcase and airbox.
I recommend getting a hose connected to that vent ASAP. I've had stuff fall or crawl in there and kept me out of points running (should've won last season!), due to sitting on sidelines messing with my carbs when I could've been racing! |
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May 11th, 2019, 09:10 PM | #16 | |
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May 12th, 2019, 06:57 AM | #17 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
Hanging RPMs usually mean a vacuum leak or overly lean mixture. Because it's got a "Stage 3" kit, you know someone has been in there, and chances are something isn't right. Unless the engine is built-to-the-hilt, some minor jetting and mixture adjustments are all that's required - so it may be over-done. You want to know the Jet sizes, clean everything, and set the float levels. Then you have a place to start. |
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May 12th, 2019, 09:21 AM | #18 | |
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May 12th, 2019, 09:59 AM | #19 |
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Going that rich when you go max throttle indicates to me that your main jet is way too big. Stock jet is 98, and I actually went a size smaller when tuning mine with a full exhaust replacement.
You didn't say if you have the airbox or pod filters, if you don't have pods, just put a stock jet on and see what happens. If you do have pods, either go back to an airbox, or just start dropping jet sizes until you find one the right one.
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May 12th, 2019, 10:02 AM | #20 | |
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May 12th, 2019, 11:41 AM | #21 | |
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Quote:
If you have pods, perhaps there is something suddenly obstructing in intake air? Tweaking the mixture screws mostly affects low throttle positions and won't do anything for your max throttle issue. Did you clean the carbs or do anything else to the bike before this issue popped up, or did it literally come out of nowhere?
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May 12th, 2019, 04:59 PM | #22 | |
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May 12th, 2019, 07:32 PM | #23 |
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Most likely carbs were clogged with jelled petrol from sitting around before you bought it. Limiting fuel flow just happened to balance huge jets and coincidentally provided proper AFR. Temporarily... Until further use dissolved an clear out clog and now you've got stable configuration with way too much fuel.
In stock trim, newgens have slightly lean midrange and super-rich WOT/high-end. Intake has no restriction (other than intake snorkel). Removing airbox completely doesn't improve flow any, so K&N pods won't change anything either. Full exhaust does yield a 20% improvement in flow and 20% improvement in power. My race-bike was dyno-tuned by sponsor Spears Racing after I installed full Tyga exhaust. They found that my WOT/high-end mixture was still too rich and went to smaller DynoJet 96 main jet and stg. 2 needle. This gave us dyno-chart like this . We couldn't go even smaller main-jet for even more power due to leaning out mid-range too much. Stg.2 needle is at very bottom (4). Notice that tip is larger diameter than stock needle #3? This has effect of reducing fuel and leaning out WOT/high-end even more than just down-sizing to 96 mains alone. Problem is mid-range lean spot. Can't shim needle because that would also richen top-end. I'm going to custom-grind some needles on mini-lathe Check out this thread for related discussion. Please read the linked magazine article where they prepared newg en for racing: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=329085 |
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May 12th, 2019, 09:20 PM | #24 |
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Hmm looks like Sport Rider is no more. Can find archive of article here: 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250 - Track Racing on the Cheap
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May 12th, 2019, 10:42 PM | #25 | |
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Quote:
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May 12th, 2019, 11:06 PM | #26 |
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Start with all factory setting:
#38 pilot 2.5 turns out pilot screws #98 main jets Monitor with wideband. Datalogged with RPM if possible for analysis. Then make adjustments based upon data collected. |
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May 12th, 2019, 11:08 PM | #27 |
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May 12th, 2019, 11:09 PM | #28 |
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Sure, let's pull them out and see how they compare to stock ones.
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May 12th, 2019, 11:12 PM | #29 |
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May 20th, 2019, 07:26 AM | #30 |
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Okay so I have this same hole/ whatever on my carb . And my tanks water leak thing was connected to it , so when it rained water would get into my carb . Clearly that was the issue . So should I just leave it unplugged?
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May 20th, 2019, 07:27 AM | #31 |
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any update on your issue?????
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May 20th, 2019, 07:31 AM | #32 |
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May 20th, 2019, 03:23 PM | #33 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
1. Tank drain hose does down left side of bike, through metal loop next to idle-adjuster knob, continue down through shock hole in swingarm. Ends up through another wire loop below swingarm and aims towards ground to drain water. 2. Centre carb vent hose aims up & down between intake runners from airbox as shown in above photo. Also goes through shock hole in swingarm and out through metal loop below swingarm next to tank drain tube as well |
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