Motorcycle dealership got flooded while my bike was getting serviced.

[jon.b.calderon]

I took my 250 to a dealership to get serviced and they just called me to let me know that their shop got flooded and told me to call my insurance to have a claims adjuster look at it. The only problem is that I only have liability insurance. Am I sh!t out of luck?

[csmith12]

THEIR insurance should cover the losses as well as any/all customer loss. Possibly a formality for paperwork. I would inquire about who is paying what and how might it affect your rates. You shouldn't be SOL but I don't know the law in your area.

[ator]

Go see what damage there is to it. I would try to work something out with the dealership. I know that a few years ago my car was vandalized while at the dealership for repairs and I had to claim it under my insurance.

[jmgrande]

That sucks, while my brother worked at Porsche, the nearby airport burned to the ground and the heat from the fire melted the paint off some of the customers cars and overall destroyed a ton of them. Lights, mirrors, etc. Although your insurance might cover it, they (the dealership) is liable and their insurance should pay for it. Just like when you are in an accident that is the other persons fault, our insurance company and yourself will pay nothing.

[Alex]

Their insurance. Has nothing to do with yours.

[bluepoof]

Someone on Sport-Touring.net just posted about this same situation -- I wonder if it was the same shop/flood?

One thing he mentioned: "My insurance also says that due to the flood being of natural causes, that the stores insurance most likely will not cover anything, so it will be all on my insurance if any 'damage' is found."

The general consensus on that thread was that the bike will be totaled but, in his case, his bike was completely submerged up to the top of the gas tank for over 12 hours.

Good luck -- it sounds like a really crappy situation.

[edxmon]

Talk to your insurance, explain the situation, they will be able to give you the best advice, unless one of the members here work in insurance. Also, they gave you a piece of paper when you dropped off the bike, read the small print ALL OF IT, it might mention something about incurred damages while on the premises or something. Lastly, go to the dealership and talk to them,

[Alex]

Originally Posted by bluepoof

One thing he mentioned: "My insurance also says that due to the flood being of natural causes, that the stores insurance most likely will not cover anything, so it will be all on my insurance if any 'damage' is found."

Interesting. Wouldn't have thought this would be a possibility.

[Broc]

I come from the car business/dealerships & this is my experience......

If a customers car was damaged while outside on our lot by vandals, theft, weather, or force of nature the customer would have to seek claim with his/her insurance company. Of course if one of my employees caused the damaged while outside on the lot the dealership would be taking care of the damages. This also applies while operating the vehicle.

If a customers car was inside my shop and ANYTHING happened. Theft,fire, act of god, or otherwise the dealership was ALWAYS responsible.

We saw it all when it came to damages. Went through several severe weather conditions with baseball sized hail, 1 tornado, theft, vandalism, & fire/water damages. In every case who was responsible came down to what I had said above^

This is also why I carry full coverage on anything I own & operate.

Hope my experience helps!

[mustang5.0]

from the insurance world.... the stores insurance is liable for all damages to customers car while the car is in the shop possession

[cbdallas]

Do you know what the extent of the damage is? Was the bike simply submerged, or did it get shoved around inside the shop by rushing water?

If it was submerged but otherwise untouched, there shouldn't be any damage that you can't fix yourself with some time and patience. First and foremost, take out the battery. Then start on getting the water out of the carbs, cylinders & crankcase...the sooner, the better. Then check all the electrical stuff out. You may spend some time cleaning out the connectors, checking relays & getting water out of the guages, lights, etc. Don't apply current (i.e. turn on the ignition switch) until you've done as much checking and cleaning as you can. You still have the opportunity to save the electronics, since they're technically not harmed by water alone...they're harmed when they're powered up when water is present. Check all the fuses, as some may have blown.

There'll be some checking out & cleaning up to do, but it's better than just scrapping the bike since you don't have full coverage. I can't say with any confidence whether or not the shop's insurance company covers this since an employee's actions were not the cause.

[dk58]

That is a crappy situation... In to see how this pans out. Hope it works out OP

[ator]

Originally Posted by mustang5.0

from the insurance world.... the stores insurance is liable for all damages to customers car while the car is in the shop possession

FIRST: Laws vary from state to state

When you drop off your bike (or a car) for service, they have you sign something, usually this includes language to not hold the dealer responsible for damage out of their control. As said above, if THEY caused the damage they will usually fix it without question. That is not the situation in this case.

I would first get some local legal advice regarding YOUR situation. Then speak with the dealership. If the advice you receive says that they are not responsible, then I would speak with them to try and work something out. Let them know that you are not insured. If the advice says that they ARE responsible, I would have a much different conversation with the dealership.

Remember, even if the dealership is responsible for damages AND insured, there could be (at the dealership) potentially 100's of thousands of dollars worth of damage (could be in the millions even depending on the size of dealership) and they may not have enough insurance to cover it all

[edxmon]

Originally Posted by trixter

Flood insurance is a separate policy. You are not required to have it for business but if you live in a flood plain it is a really good idea.

The bike was left at their shop, they were entrusted to keep it safe for the duration they have it. While at their shop it was damaged. They made a business choice to self insure against flood damage instead of buying a policy and paying a monthly premium. If the flood was of natural causes it is likely that they were in a known flood plain (maps are available because those maps dictate if you are required to have flood insurance for certain mortgages on residential properties). If the flood was for unnatural causes (water main broke for example) then there may be an additional party that could ultimately be held liable but that gets murky in terms of who you, as the bike owner, can name in a suit.

The basis of tort law is to restore the affected party from harm that was done. This restoration means a bike that is in the same condition as when you left it, or suitable compensation for the loss of your property.

The dealership likely has a finite amount of money which is much smaller than the damage claims that would be made. It is usually first come first served in instances like that. You may want to be more aggressive about getting them to resolve this for you and if they refuse file a claim in small claims court (no lawyers in the court room but you can have one help prepare you for court but you usually do not get that reimbursed in small claims judgments). Not aggressive in a hostile way but aggressive in a 'squeaky wheel gets the grease' way.

Record all contacts, times, dates, who you spoke with, notes on what was said, etc. This will be important if you do have to go to court. Do as much in writing if possible, otherwise its a he said she said situation and unless they admit to something you have no evidence they ever said it. Registered return receipt mail is best because you have a log that you sent them something (keep a copy of the letters you send) and a log of what they said. Email is also accepted in many courts (for small claims).

This , don't be passive about this, and have documentation on EVERYTHING.

[mustang5.0]

Originally Posted by ator

FIRST: Laws vary from state to state

When you drop off your bike (or a car) for service, they have you sign something, usually this includes language to not hold the dealer responsible for damage out of their control. As said above, if THEY caused the damage they will usually fix it without question. That is not the situation in this case.

I would first get some local legal advice regarding YOUR situation. Then speak with the dealership. If the advice you receive says that they are not responsible, then I would speak with them to try and work something out. Let them know that you are not insured. If the advice says that they ARE responsible, I would have a much different conversation with the dealership.

Remember, even if the dealership is responsible for damages AND insured, there could be (at the dealership) potentially 100's of thousands of dollars worth of damage (could be in the millions even depending on the size of dealership) and they may not have enough insurance to cover it all

2nd...rly
as soon they take possession of the bike/car, they are liable.. it doesn't matter what state... or even the flood laws..
the cause of the damage is not the issue... it the fact that a customers bike was damaged.

[mustang5.0]

Originally Posted by trixter

Flood insurance is a separate policy. You are not required to have it for business but if you live in a flood plain it is a really good idea.

The bike was left at their shop, they were entrusted to keep it safe for the duration they have it. While at their shop it was damaged. They made a business choice to self insure against flood damage instead of buying a policy and paying a monthly premium. If the flood was of natural causes it is likely that they were in a known flood plain (maps are available because those maps dictate if you are required to have flood insurance for certain mortgages on residential properties). If the flood was for unnatural causes (water main broke for example) then there may be an additional party that could ultimately be held liable but that gets murky in terms of who you, as the bike owner, can name in a suit.

The basis of tort law is to restore the affected party from harm that was done. This restoration means a bike that is in the same condition as when you left it, or suitable compensation for the loss of your property.

The dealership likely has a finite amount of money which is much smaller than the damage claims that would be made. It is usually first come first served in instances like that. You may want to be more aggressive about getting them to resolve this for you and if they refuse file a claim in small claims court (no lawyers in the court room but you can have one help prepare you for court but you usually do not get that reimbursed in small claims judgments). Not aggressive in a hostile way but aggressive in a 'squeaky wheel gets the grease' way.

Record all contacts, times, dates, who you spoke with, notes on what was said, etc. This will be important if you do have to go to court. Do as much in writing if possible, otherwise its a he said she said situation and unless they admit to something you have no evidence they ever said it. Registered return receipt mail is best because you have a log that you sent them something (keep a copy of the letters you send) and a log of what they said. Email is also accepted in many courts (for small claims).

follow this to the T
Trixter do you work in the industry, cause your advice is spot on?

[ator]

Originally Posted by mustang5.0

2nd...rly
as soon they take possession of the bike/car, they are liable.. it doesn't matter what state... or even the flood laws..
the cause of the damage is not the issue... it the fact that a customers bike was damaged.

First off, let me say I was wrong by saying that the laws are different in every state, what I should have said is that the laws are NOT THE SAME in every state.

I can tell you for a fact in MY STATE dealerships have you sign when you drop off a vehicle. This form absolves them of any responsibility to any damage that happens beyond their control while in their possession. Period! And its legal for them to do so. (in my state) If you don't like it you can take it somewhere else, but they all have you sign a form with the same basic language.

How simple it would be if every time you dropped of a vehicle (or motorcycle) that they were absolutely responsible for anything that could happen! Fact is They are not. That's why they informed the OP to have his insurance adjuster come down to take a look at it.

Bottom line is, OP would have to prove negligence on the dealerships part in order to make them absolutely responsible. Read what you sign.

I still stick with my original advice to the OP and wish him the best of luck.

And by all means, document everything you can, dates, times, conversations ...

[ator]

Originally Posted by trixter

That is called a waiver of liability and it falls under "contract law" instead of the laws of a state. That waiver is a private contract between the parties that are entering into it.

To suggest that this is somehow a state law is erroneous. It is a contract and nothing more. Contracts however may not violate the laws of the jurisdiction (city, county, state, federal, interplanetary, galactic, interdimensional whomever your overlords are).

The reason that have you sign that waiver of liability is because the default is that they are liable.



In contracts like that the general default rule is that ambiguities favor the person who did not write the contract. If their waiver of liability is not well written or if it can be severed or shown to otherwise be defective then there is no waiver of liability.

There is usually a severability clause in such things so that if any portion is in violation of the law the rest of the document is intact although as recent shenanigans on the federal level shows that is not always the case. Anyone following the last 3 days of the Supreme Court stuff will probably have heard something about how congress forgot to have a severability clause in the health care legislation and the effect of that should any single provision in it be tossed.

Nice post, I believe that it further proves my point, thank you!.

So basically, you are saying, if the "contract" that you sign when dropping off a vehicle is "sound" and without ambiguity, then the dealership is not liable for this damage.

Reason why I specified "in my state" is because A) I am not a lawyer. and B)It happened to me in my state.

Not trying to get into a whole legal discussion, as I am not a lawyer, just speaking from experience. I DID in fact consult a lawyer when my vehicle was damaged while at a dealer. I still had to make a claim on my own insurance.

According to mustang 5.0 "as soon they take possession of the bike/car, they are liable.." which is not completely true

And lastly, we know nothing of this dealer, fact is this situation can be bad enough to potentially bankrupt them, providing they are not properly insured themselves. Who knows how many dealer owned motorcycles (or other equipment) was destroyed. Not to mention the facility itself.

[mustang5.0]

Originally Posted by ator

First off, let me say I was wrong by saying that the laws are different in every state, what I should have said is that the laws are NOT THE SAME in every state.

I can tell you for a fact in MY STATE dealerships have you sign when you drop off a vehicle. This form absolves them of any responsibility to any damage that happens beyond their control while in their possession. Period! And its legal for them to do so. (in my state) If you don't like it you can take it somewhere else, but they all have you sign a form with the same basic language.

How simple it would be if every time you dropped of a vehicle (or motorcycle) that they were absolutely responsible for anything that could happen! Fact is They are not. That's why they informed the OP to have his insurance adjuster come down to take a look at it.

Bottom line is, OP would have to prove negligence on the dealerships part in order to make them absolutely responsible. Read what you sign.

I still stick with my original advice to the OP and wish him the best of luck.

And by all means, document everything you can, dates, times, conversations ...

its cool.. we can agree to disagree
but for all the recent years working in the insurance industry, you are giving him bad advice..

[ator]

Originally Posted by mustang5.0

its cool.. we can agree to disagree
but for all the recent years working in the insurance industry, you are giving him bad advice..

Really???? we can agree to disagree but bad advice???

Here is my advice copy and pasted:

"I would first get some local legal advice regarding YOUR situation. Then speak with the dealership. If the advice you receive says that they are not responsible, then I would speak with them to try and work something out. Let them know that you are not insured. If the advice says that they ARE responsible, I would have a much different conversation with the dealership."

"And by all means, document everything you can, dates, times, conversations ..."

I can even add that if legal advice says to just take them to court, then just do that.

Bad advice would be to just assume that they are liable, sit back, and wait for a check. That would be bad advice.

[ator]

You even said that you have to demonstrate that they were liable through negligence (which is not the only way they may have liability but ok). In this case it was a flood, apparently more than a couple inches of water on the floor of the dealership. Did they do anything to mitigate that damage? Did they attempt to inform the owner of the property that they were unprepared to deal with a flood that most likely was forecast on the weather reports in the area well in advance of the storm that caused it? Did they have flood insurance on their own stuff proving they knew they were in a flood plain?

Was there improper or inadequate drainage? Covered drains due to excessive debris such as packaging for parts and accessories could actually expose them directly and fairly easily to liability. I just dont know enough about the conditions of the flood in question.

It is possible but unlikely that they were not in a flood plain and got flooded enough to damage a bike. There are 100 year floods and 500 year floods and then seasonal flooding. The flood plain maps will mark what type of area you are in, which in turn helps to set your premium for any flood insurance. The more rare it is for that area the less likely they were in a marked known flood plain that would require flood insurance by any mortgage holder for the property. If they only leased the property they would never have seen the requirements of the mortgage holder.

And how much would it cost the OP to prove all of this??

but it is the default rule.

which again is why they have you sign when dropping off a car/motorcycle

[ator]

Originally Posted by trixter

You also have to be careful about intentionally bankrupting someone by suing them. Church of Scientology did that to the Cult Awareness Network (then bought them out of bankruptcy and delisted themselves as a cult). They had 20 people all send form resumes offering to volunteer. All were rejected because the owner said "hmm something weird with 20 form letters all arriving within days". They all individually sued, $200 filing fee each, and all had virtually identical briefs even though they claimed to not have conspired to do this. It is believed a CoS lawyer was behind this. CAN spent about $1 million fighting these 20 cases (vs the combined $4000 spent to file) and won every single one of them. CAN was then bankrupt. Remember you only can recover lawyer fees if you file a suit and win, if you are sued and win you get nothing. People are opposed to tort reform that would fix this saying that it puts rich people at an advantage or something without knowing what they are talking about. sigh.

I never suggested that anyone would sue to intentionally bankrupt the dealership. But I do know this, Local dealer here has anywhere from 80 to 150 bikes on their showroom floor at any time. Plus another 50 ATV's. Also, this time of year, you can drive by and see about 75 bikes parked outside the service area. If they had a catastrophic event that destroyed ALL of these bikes, and were not properly insured, they would be bankrupt.

[ator]

Again, not saying the OP is SOL. But he might have an uphill battle. Sure, a new Ninja 250 is cheap and it's cost may pale in comparison to any other expenses this dealership may incur due to the flooding. But it doesn't mean that they will just had over a new 250.

Again, have someone look at your contract. If the consensus is that the dealership is liable, then the OP should contact the dealer and tell them, "No you are liable" If the contract is strong enough to absolve the dealership of responsibility, then the OP should talk with the dealership to try and work something out.

Listen, This happened a couple years ago: I took my car in for service. They kept it overnight to finish in the morning. They were waiting for a part so they parked it outside in a secured lot on their property. That night some kids broke in the lot and damaged some cars (stole some things) and were caught on tape (so yes they were caught) Dealership calls me and asks for my insurance info, tells me what happened. I am of course upset and refuse to make an insurance claim. I consult a lawyer who says that I can "try" and sue them but that in these types of cases I probably would not win based on the contract that I signed when dropping off my car. It had a little over $10K in damage. My insurance paid, dealer offered to pay the deductible. Thank god I had insurance.

[ator]

Originally Posted by trixter

which does not remove all liability if it did then the ski lift ticket that says they are not liable for death or injury would never be sued. They are, they lose, they settle for way more than it would cost to defend the case because its less than the likely judgement would be. Read any ski lift ticket, it has a waiver against death and injury in clear print right on it.

It is the same governing law that covers that waiver of liability as it does the vehicle drop off at service desks.

Totally different scenario. apples and oranges. The OP didn't just drop off his motorcycle and was handed a ticket that says "we are not responsible for any damage"

[mustang5.0]

the default does apply.... a shop can not damage your property and just return it damaged

when the shop or any shop buys insurance.. the insurance company has 90 day to get off the policy... they send out an inspector to look all possible losses.. include flood even though its not provided as part of a regular policy...

if you think that every bike, scooter or whatever has individualize coverage for each bike... no... all bike are cover under an umbrella policy as would any customer bike on the property...

anyone with a ARM OR AU OR CPCU designation care to chime in

[ator]

Originally Posted by mustang5.0

the default does apply.... a shop can not damage your property and just return it damaged

when the shop or any shop buys insurance.. the insurance company has 90 day to get off the policy... they send out an inspector to look all possible losses.. include flood even though its not provided as part of a regular policy...

if you think that every bike, scooter or whatever has individualize coverage for each bike... no... all bike are cover under an umbrella policy as would any customer bike on the property...

anyone with a ARM OR AU OR CPCU designation care to chime in

But the shop did not damage it. The damage was cause by flooding, and as Trixter said, you would have to prove that the dealership's negligence contributed to the flooding which caused the damage.

[mustang5.0]

Originally Posted by ator

But the shop did not damage it. The damage was cause by flooding, and as Trixter said, you would have to prove that the dealership's negligence contributed to the flooding which caused the damage.

if it was a broke pipe in the building, broken water main out front or a flood zone... it doesn't matter... insurance company plans and provides rates based on every possible scenario. if one part of the multi-line coverage
its easier to prove that they did nothing to prevent it.. improper drainage, old pipes, no pumps or pumps back up to mitigate water damage in a flood zone... as basically what was said earlier

its what i did for a living.

[jmgrande]

Originally Posted by jmgrande

That sucks, while my brother worked at Porsche, the nearby airport burned to the ground and the heat from the fire melted the paint off some of the customers cars and overall destroyed a ton of them. Lights, mirrors, etc. Although your insurance might cover it, they (the dealership) is liable and their insurance should pay for it. Just like when you are in an accident that is the other persons fault, our insurance company and yourself will pay nothing.

So ignored me I was talking to my brother at work tonight and he said that the people's insurance had to cover damages.

But the dealer should be will be work with you.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by trixter

Flood insurance is a separate policy. You are not required to have it for business but if you live in a flood plain it is a really good idea.
...

If you live in a flood plain, many (most?) will not allow you to buy flood insurance.

[TnNinjaGirl]

@Alex Maybe make a sticky for "preemptive legal advice" with Trixter's comments.

[Alex]

@TnNinjaGirl - I think it's good information, but I'm not sure where it would fit as a sticky. What forum? What would the topic be?

[Hoodie Ninja]

Sounds like **** luck. I just recently lost my first bike in a flood too. THEIR insurance company should be taking care of everything. Though it wouldn't hurt to give yours a call just to check on the situation. Not only that, but your ins. co. should be able to give them a little bit of pressure. Good luck with everything.

[leed]

Originally Posted by Alex

@TnNinjaGirl - I think it's good information, but I'm not sure where it would fit as a sticky. What forum? What would the topic be?

@#$%@# Crashed? Or maybe in General Motorcycle Discussion.

[jon.b.calderon]

update: i called them up and they said my bike was ready to pick up, but the fuel gauge is no longer working, i guess i have to go back and get it fixed.