Engine revs issues

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 05:45 PM

Hi everybody, i had some issues since like 2 months with my ninja 250 SE 2012.
Bike is running A full Firetorch race exhaust ( Thai brand )
Power commander V
stock Airfilter

The bike is overall working fine, when i start it everything is ok, but then when the engine starts to heat up, the revs will decrease until the bike is shut down.

After that i can start it again but the problem will stay.

another point is, look like the idle adjuster is not working properly or doesn't work at all.

I made my last check, cleaned my valve, changed oil and changed battery and some fuses in the bike 3 months ago.
The issue started 1 month after i changed the battery, since then i haven't been using it since yesterday.

Thanks for the answer in advance

HoneyBadgerRy · April 18th, 2016, 06:13 PM

I don't know much about the power commanders, but is there some way to reset it?

Can you run the bike without it just to test and see if its the problem? I know the bike will be lean, but if the only mod is an exhaust and maybe a snorkle removal it should be fine for a short test.

HoneyBadgerRy · April 18th, 2016, 06:14 PM

Also, is the bike overheating? Is the fan turning on? Anything recently been done that may have caused the problem?

mgentz · April 18th, 2016, 06:29 PM

could it be the ignitor or "ECM" issue that I have heard about?

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Also, is the bike overheating? Is the fan turning on? Anything recently been done that may have caused the problem?

Fan is turning on correctly

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

could it be the ignitor or "ECM" issue that I have heard about?

Not sure but i will try to check it on the net, what is that issue is about?

mgentz · April 18th, 2016, 06:48 PM

start here:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ight=cdi+issue

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

start here:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ight=cdi+issue

Thank you very much bro

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Also, is the bike overheating? Is the fan turning on? Anything recently been done that may have caused the problem?

the very last recent thing i did is replacing the engine oil which was the shell i think 10-40W

HoneyBadgerRy · April 18th, 2016, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadydrift

the very last recent thing i did is replacing the engine oil which was the shell i think 10-40W

Probably rotella t6. Anyway that's besides the point.

I can't see that harming anything, unless you unplugged anything. Its worth a shot to double check everything is plugged in. (Doesn't really sound like a promising lead though)

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Probably rotella t6. Anyway that's besides the point.

I can't see that harming anything, unless you unplugged anything. Its worth a shot to double check everything is plugged in. (Doesn't really sound like a promising lead though)

i changed the battery and the fuses aswell but not all the fuses maybe one of them is down? if one of the fuses can have something related to this

HoneyBadgerRy · April 18th, 2016, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadydrift

i changed the battery and the fuses aswell but not all the fuses maybe one of them is down? if one of the fuses can have something related to this

I could see hypothetically if you changed one and it was underrated it would add resistance as it heated up and that could mess with the ecu. However, this is very unlikely. And the ODs if the fuse not blowing after a couple test is astronomical. If when you changed the battery you might have charged it with a bad charger or hooked it up backwards or in some way shocked the ecu/piggyback.

I don't see these as likely scenarios though.

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

I could see hypothetically if you changed one and it was underrated it would add resistance as it heated up and that could mess with the ecu. However, this is very unlikely. And the ODs if the fuse not blowing after a couple test is astronomical. If when you changed the battery you might have charged it with a bad charger or hooked it up backwards or in some way shocked the ecu/piggyback.

I don't see these as likely scenarios though.

yeah :/ it occured one months after i changed the battery, or maybe the RPM adjuster is stuck in a position which gets the revs very low

HoneyBadgerRy · April 18th, 2016, 07:35 PM

I think @csmith12 will be able to help out more than I can. I am unfamiliar with the newgen and the powercomander. He has more knowledge about them than I.

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

I think @csmith12 will be able to help out more than I can. I am unfamiliar with the newgen and the powercomander. He has more knowledge about them than I.

Ok thank you very much for this, i will try to explain and ask him

csmith12 · April 18th, 2016, 07:56 PM

Let's rule out temps first.

Where is the pc mounted? If you let the bike cool off before trying to start it again does thing go back to normal until hot? PcV's don't like to have the ground point get hot either. Try running the wire directly to the neg. on the battery.

It's going to be one of 3 things; bad ground, heat problem (ground or pc box itself) or it's defective. It's also possible you have a bad map or flash, but I am assuming you downloaded one from the pc website. They are not perfect, but should be at least ball park close and NOT cause your bike to stall out.

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csmith12

Let's rule out temps first.

Where is the pc mounted? If you let the bike cool off before trying to start it again does thing go back to normal until hot? PcV's don't like to have the ground point get hot either. Try running the wire directly to the neg. on the battery.

It's going to be one of 3 things; bad ground, heat problem (ground or pc box itself) or it's defective. It's also possible you have a bad map or flash, but I am assuming you downloaded one from the pc website. They are not perfect, but should be at least ball park close and NOT cause your bike to stall out.

If i let the bike cool down and restart it, it will get back to normal for 1-3 minutes then the revs will go down and it will stall.

The PCV box is under the backseat cover, The mapping was done from the shop i buy the PCV itself (Dirtshop).

The mapping was done while my bike was on an open air filter, then i switched back to stock airfilter without modifying anything on the mapping.

And yeah the heat at the moment in Thailand is 40 degress at daytime and goes to 35-38 on nighttime and early morning

!!! the backccover seat is not that sealed as the stock seat, is it possible that i could get defective due to washing the bike and some waters goes in?

csmith12 · April 18th, 2016, 08:26 PM

Getting the unit wet should not be a problem. We put pc's on buggies, sink them in the mud and run them through the river. They get wet... it's normally not a problem as it's a sealed box. Just keep the usb port clean and clear and your good.

Like I said, move the ground wire directly to the neg on the battery and see if it still does it.

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csmith12

Getting the unit wet should not be a problem. We put pc's on buggies, sink them in the mud and run them through the river. They get wet... it's normally not a problem as it's a sealed box. Just keep the usb port clean and clear and your good.

Like I said, move the ground wire directly to the neg on the battery and see if it still does it.

Ok, thank you very much for the tip, i will do it today

mgentz · April 18th, 2016, 09:11 PM

why not just unplug the PC and try to run the bike for a few minutes? this will rule it out completely or give you more focus.

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

why not just unplug the PC and try to run the bike for a few minutes? this will rule it out completely or give you more focus.

are you sure it's a good idea??

csmith12 · April 18th, 2016, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadydrift

are you sure it's a good idea??

Yes, that is also a good idea. It will totally isolate the problem to the bike or the pc box itself and/or it's installation. Another very simple thing to try is running the bike at night when the air temps are down.

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csmith12

Yes, that is also a good idea. It will totally isolate the problem to the pc or it's installation. Another very simple thing to try is running the bike at night when the air temps are down.

Ok i will first follow your steps, then if it doesn't work i will try the other solution

SteveL · April 18th, 2016, 10:49 PM

If you suspect the power commander run the motor until the fault is present, then up load the program from the device. This should tell you that the commander is working to some degree and that the fuel mapping is accessible to the device.

Steve

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveL

If you suspect the power commander run the motor until the fault is present, then up load the program from the device. This should tell you that the commander is working to some degree and that the fuel mapping is accessible to the device.

Steve

thank you very much steve i'll try to do this

Tadydrift · April 18th, 2016, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csmith12

Yes, that is also a good idea. It will totally isolate the problem to the bike or the pc box itself and/or it's installation. Another very simple thing to try is running the bike at night when the air temps are down.

One question, if i download a map from power commander website ( they only have european version ) will it work on my japanese Ninja 250?

mgentz · April 19th, 2016, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadydrift

One question, if i download a map from power commander website ( they only have european version ) will it work on my japanese Ninja 250?

It will be close. Those maps are only meant to serve as a baseline until you can get it professionally mapped.

But seriously, before we all go too far, unplug it and see. Running the bIke for 5 to 10 minutes will not be a big issue. It may be slightly lean, but should not be excessive.

Tadydrift · April 19th, 2016, 07:21 PM

ok, so i discovered something this morning, when starting the bike, i try to plug in the device to computer and see the symptoms,

Yesterday night

the bike starts normally, revs were at 1300-1442 rpm( engine was warm ) Then in about 30 seconds it goes down like this : 1200->1100->1024->900->840-> 554 and the bike stall.

( i take the oportunity to save the mapping that was on the PCV itself )

What i see, was that in the Ignition table it shows 0 everywhere even when reving up the engine ( IS IT NORMAL ? )

This morning i tried to check anything about the PCV and nothing physically
I then started the bike to get it warm, same symtoms as yesterday night test

Then i try to adjust the revs with the adjuster, i put it to 1500 rpm.
It worked the bike wasn't stalling anymore, then i ride out for 30 min, what i saw was that the revs where now around 1800-2000 rpm ( engine fully warmed-up ).

I now let it rest and cool down and i will try to make a cold start to see the symptoms.

PS : i also move the cable of the PCV because i notice they where stuck in some little space and was being pressed by other cables
The revs adjuster was a bit lossy

csmith12 · April 19th, 2016, 07:45 PM

Sounds like a little progress to me!

Set your idle when your bike has reached full operating temp. Aside of that, it seems pretty close to normal. A 0'ed out pc map can be ok but it's definately not taking advantage of the device you paid for. Sounds like a trip to the dyno is in your future to get your $$$ worth.

RacinNinja · April 19th, 2016, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csmith12

Sounds like a little progress to me!

Set your idle when your bike has reached full operating temp. Aside of that, it seems pretty close to normal. A 0'ed out pc map can be ok but it's definately not taking advantage of the device you paid for. Sounds like a trip to the dyno is in your future to get your $$$ worth.

The ignition table only works with a PowerCommander when you have the additional Ignition module. Since it only interfaces with the fuel injectors, only the Fuel map should have values.

This is perfectly normal. Keep looking.....

EDIT: Didn't know they made an all-in-one unit. Nevermind then!

Tadydrift · April 19th, 2016, 07:51 PM

sure, i will need to get to the dyno

and it will ruin me lol, anyway thanks everybody for the tip, i will keep updating any progress until bike is 100% fine

RacinNinja · April 19th, 2016, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tadydrift

sure, i will need to get to the dyno

and it will ruin me lol, anyway thanks everybody for the tip, i will keep updating any progress until bike is 100% fine

I didn't know they made an all-in-one unit. Learned something!

Still, all the 0 table means is that it's using the stock ECU timing table. This shouldn't be an issue.

I do agree that you should completely disconnect the PowerCommander and go ride to see if the issue still presents itself. If it does, it may be a fuel pressure issue since it's temperature related.

Tadydrift · April 19th, 2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

I didn't know they made an all-in-one unit. Learned something!

Still, all the 0 table means is that it's using the stock ECU timing table. This shouldn't be an issue.

I do agree that you should completely disconnect the PowerCommander and go ride to see if the issue still presents itself. If it does, it may be a fuel pressure issue since it's temperature related.

I will Check it

Tadydrift · April 20th, 2016, 06:16 PM

It actually does look like something related to the temp, at a certain temperature the engine does idle normally, but just after a cold start it is unstable, then when it is fully warmed up it is normal.

April 18th, 2016, 05:45 PM	#1
Tadydrift ninjette.org Rider Name: Tanguy Location: Thailand/France Join Date: Dec 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 SE 2012 Posts: 63	Engine revs issues Hi everybody, i had some issues since like 2 months with my ninja 250 SE 2012. Bike is running A full Firetorch race exhaust ( Thai brand ) Power commander V stock Airfilter The bike is overall working fine, when i start it everything is ok, but then when the engine starts to heat up, the revs will decrease until the bike is shut down. After that i can start it again but the problem will stay. another point is, look like the idle adjuster is not working properly or doesn't work at all. I made my last check, cleaned my valve, changed oil and changed battery and some fuses in the bike 3 months ago. The issue started 1 month after i changed the battery, since then i haven't been using it since yesterday. Thanks for the answer in advance Last futzed with by Tadydrift; April 18th, 2016 at 07:55 PM. Reason: informations

April 18th, 2016, 06:13 PM	#2
HoneyBadgerRy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Ryan Location: Beaufort SC Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja 250, 04 KTM 625 SMC, 01 Xc250 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 3	I don't know much about the power commanders, but is there some way to reset it? Can you run the bike without it just to test and see if its the problem? I know the bike will be lean, but if the only mod is an exhaust and maybe a snorkle removal it should be fine for a short test. __________________________________________________ Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

April 18th, 2016, 06:14 PM	#3
HoneyBadgerRy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Ryan Location: Beaufort SC Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja 250, 04 KTM 625 SMC, 01 Xc250 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 3	Also, is the bike overheating? Is the fan turning on? Anything recently been done that may have caused the problem? __________________________________________________ Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

April 18th, 2016, 07:35 PM	#14
HoneyBadgerRy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Ryan Location: Beaufort SC Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja 250, 04 KTM 625 SMC, 01 Xc250 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 3	I think @csmith12 will be able to help out more than I can. I am unfamiliar with the newgen and the powercomander. He has more knowledge about them than I. __________________________________________________ Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

April 18th, 2016, 07:56 PM	#16
csmith12 The Corner Whisperer Name: Chris (aka Reactor) Location: Northern KY Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much. MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13	Let's rule out temps first. Where is the pc mounted? If you let the bike cool off before trying to start it again does thing go back to normal until hot? PcV's don't like to have the ground point get hot either. Try running the wire directly to the neg. on the battery. It's going to be one of 3 things; bad ground, heat problem (ground or pc box itself) or it's defective. It's also possible you have a bad map or flash, but I am assuming you downloaded one from the pc website. They are not perfect, but should be at least ball park close and NOT cause your bike to stall out. __________________________________________________ Goal: Shake A Million Hands \| Look through the corners \| Track Day Prep \| Closest track? \| The Mid-Ohio School

April 18th, 2016, 06:29 PM	#4
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	could it be the ignitor or "ECM" issue that I have heard about?

April 18th, 2016, 06:48 PM	#7
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	start here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ight=cdi+issue

April 18th, 2016, 08:26 PM	#18
csmith12 The Corner Whisperer Name: Chris (aka Reactor) Location: Northern KY Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much. MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13	Getting the unit wet should not be a problem. We put pc's on buggies, sink them in the mud and run them through the river. They get wet... it's normally not a problem as it's a sealed box. Just keep the usb port clean and clear and your good. Like I said, move the ground wire directly to the neg on the battery and see if it still does it. __________________________________________________ Goal: Shake A Million Hands \| Look through the corners \| Track Day Prep \| Closest track? \| The Mid-Ohio School

April 18th, 2016, 09:11 PM	#20
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	why not just unplug the PC and try to run the bike for a few minutes? this will rule it out completely or give you more focus.
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

April 18th, 2016, 10:49 PM	#24
SteveL old git Name: Steve Location: Geneve Switzerland Join Date: Mar 2009 Motorcycle(s): BMW K1300S Posts: 479	If you suspect the power commander run the motor until the fault is present, then up load the program from the device. This should tell you that the commander is working to some degree and that the fuel mapping is accessible to the device. Steve __________________________________________________ Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.

April 19th, 2016, 07:21 PM	#28
Tadydrift ninjette.org Rider Name: Tanguy Location: Thailand/France Join Date: Dec 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 SE 2012 Posts: 63	ok, so i discovered something this morning, when starting the bike, i try to plug in the device to computer and see the symptoms, Yesterday night the bike starts normally, revs were at 1300-1442 rpm( engine was warm ) Then in about 30 seconds it goes down like this : 1200->1100->1024->900->840-> 554 and the bike stall. ( i take the oportunity to save the mapping that was on the PCV itself ) What i see, was that in the Ignition table it shows 0 everywhere even when reving up the engine ( IS IT NORMAL ? ) This morning i tried to check anything about the PCV and nothing physically I then started the bike to get it warm, same symtoms as yesterday night test Then i try to adjust the revs with the adjuster, i put it to 1500 rpm. It worked the bike wasn't stalling anymore, then i ride out for 30 min, what i saw was that the revs where now around 1800-2000 rpm ( engine fully warmed-up ). I now let it rest and cool down and i will try to make a cold start to see the symptoms. PS : i also move the cable of the PCV because i notice they where stuck in some little space and was being pressed by other cables The revs adjuster was a bit lossy

April 19th, 2016, 07:45 PM	#29
csmith12 The Corner Whisperer Name: Chris (aka Reactor) Location: Northern KY Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much. MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13	Sounds like a little progress to me! Set your idle when your bike has reached full operating temp. Aside of that, it seems pretty close to normal. A 0'ed out pc map can be ok but it's definately not taking advantage of the device you paid for. Sounds like a trip to the dyno is in your future to get your $$$ worth. __________________________________________________ Goal: Shake A Million Hands \| Look through the corners \| Track Day Prep \| Closest track? \| The Mid-Ohio School

April 19th, 2016, 07:51 PM	#31
Tadydrift ninjette.org Rider Name: Tanguy Location: Thailand/France Join Date: Dec 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 SE 2012 Posts: 63	sure, i will need to get to the dyno and it will ruin me lol, anyway thanks everybody for the tip, i will keep updating any progress until bike is 100% fine

April 20th, 2016, 06:16 PM	#34
Tadydrift ninjette.org Rider Name: Tanguy Location: Thailand/France Join Date: Dec 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 SE 2012 Posts: 63	It actually does look like something related to the temp, at a certain temperature the engine does idle normally, but just after a cold start it is unstable, then when it is fully warmed up it is normal.

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