Body Position review/help/comments, please

[NevadaWolf]

Hey all you far more experienced track riders.

Last weekend I finally got tired of hearing my pegs scrape so I attempted to scootch my butt over and try to bring the bike upward.

Self-critique: I know I get too far off the seat and need to not move so much when setting up for the turn. I also need to reposition my feet as I think I'm on the balls of my foot when the video shows I am actually closer to the arches. I think I found the right foot position mid way through the second day. I also feel like I am pulling the bike over with me and need to figure out how to push it up as I go around the corner so I don't drag peg while hanging off.

Now, though, I don't know if my shoulders or back are in the right place or if my arms and hands are held correctly. I also can't tell if i am crossed up or if its my suit design making me look weird (though I look weird anyway so it may be natural there). Could you, with the more experienced eye, help this noob out? Please? Thank you very very very much.

Here's the album for larger versions if needed.

Day one sighting lap:


Day one mid day


Day two mid day


Day two other direction


Day one side


Day two side


Knee, foot, and peg drag


Noob rear shot

[Motofool]

No experienced track rider here, but I believe that you look great, Teri !!!

Just remember that you butt off doesn't do much, your head and upper torso are much more heavier and locating those as off-center as possible (without compromising comfort and controls) is what makes a difference in the lean angle of the suspension.

With that in mind, your butt will follow your head displacement and you will not be crossed up.

Love the eyes of the bike !!!

[adouglas]

Not an experienced track rider here either but I agree... you look good.

I can't help but notice how awkward the stock bars are when it comes to your wrist position (Day Two side photo). Get some clip-ons and I'll bet you'll find it easier to reposition yourself.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Motofool

No experienced track rider here, but I believe that you look great, Teri !!!

Just remember that you butt off doesn't do much, your head and upper torso are much more heavier and locating those as off-center as possible (without compromising comfort and controls) is what makes a difference in the lean angle of the suspension.

With that in mind, your butt will follow your head displacement and you will not be crossed up.

Love the eyes of the bike !!!

Thank you.

I try getting my head and chest off line but without moving my rear it feels like my spine is kinked. I found myself doing a mini-hop in the seat to get my body in line and I think that is what caused me to move too far.

There's another rider who last season had a 250 and he put eyes on. Now he has something with just round headlights so he has just eyes. I loved the idea and saw someone on here had cookie monster eyes. So had to steal the idea.

Originally Posted by adouglas

Not an experienced track rider here either but I agree... you look good.

I can't help but notice how awkward the stock bars are when it comes to your wrist position (Day Two side photo). Get some clip-ons and I'll bet you'll find it easier to reposition yourself.

Thank you, too.

How much do clipons move the stock bar position? I don't want to lower them as the stocks are a little low to begin with for me. Would they just rotate the angle out so my wrist isn't bent so much? Haven't looked into clipons since they always looked too low for my comfort.

[rojoracing53]

I would say try not to tuck so much and let you back straiten out mid corner. This will make it more comfortable to shift your shoulder to the outside just a bit more while maintain a higher leverage on the bars with less stress on your wrist giving more control. The position your using with your upper body is what I use in a high speed dog leg but I keep my knees in for aerodynamics.

Do you ever watch world Superbike? In the top ten riders you'll see at least 4 distinctly different BP styles that all allow those guys to go fast then most ever will. Just keep in mind BP is not a absolute limiting factor and its only one small part to the whole picture. So go ahead and focus on it to try and change it but understand its not the only thing holding you back so change up your focus from time to time to the other parts of the puzzle to improve slowly overall. Once you get better at one part of cornering the other parts will be easier to learn up to the level of the first part you improved. Then you can go back and further improve on the first piece and likewise the others as well. I just just keep focusing on only the one part over and over it will be your lack a mastery of the other parts that begin to hold you back.

Just from friendly advise to you and anyone else happening upon this thread.

And like the others said you look good in those pics

[Panda]

Nothing to add except you look badass in this pic -

[geeker]

Your bp looks better than mine at my recent first trackday. While I understand @Motofool's idea of weight distribution, your rear end is just as important. All in all, I think your first efforts are much better than my own. Try to grip both handlebars like a screwdriver and that should alleviate the awkward wrists. But work on things incrementally until you have each facet of your bp down.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I would say try not to tuck so much and let you back straiten out mid corner. This will make it more comfortable to shift your shoulder to the outside just a bit more while maintain a higher leverage on the bars with less stress on your wrist giving more control. The position your using with your upper body is what I use in a high speed dog leg but I keep my knees in for aerodynamics.

Ok, thank you very much. I'll sit up more which will also help in seeing as I was finding I was looking over my glasses at times.

Do you ever watch world Superbike? In the top ten riders you'll see at least 4 distinctly different BP styles that all allow those guys to go fast then most ever will. Just keep in mind BP is not a absolute limiting factor and its only one small part to the whole picture. So go ahead and focus on it to try and change it but understand its not the only thing holding you back so change up your focus from time to time to the other parts of the puzzle to improve slowly overall. Once you get better at one part of cornering the other parts will be easier to learn up to the level of the first part you improved. Then you can go back and further improve on the first piece and likewise the others as well. I just just keep focusing on only the one part over and over it will be your lack a mastery of the other parts that begin to hold you back.

Just from friendly advise to you and anyone else happening upon this thread.

And like the others said you look good in those pics

Oh, um, what's the rest of the puzzle? I just started this because my pegs were scraping and heard/read you hang off to straighten the bike up. Though I didn't stop scraping entirely, I didn't scrape nearly as much.

I'm a really slow learner and it takes me awhile to see things i am doing. I may not be able to see those other parts yet, but if they are lodged in my head somewhere now, when the time comes I may have a better chance of recognizing them.

And thank you.

[csmith12]

Teri, first off lemme say that a riders form is a personal comfort thing and can vary wildly between riders even at the very advanced stages. Also, some of the fastest riders/racers I know have some really whack forms but it works for them and it’s all good. I also think some riders just simply look good in pictures as well. What is right or wrong is really up to you in the end. Are your comfortable? Are you relaxed? Are you in 100% control? If you answer yes to all 3, you can push to take it to the next level.

My thoughts;
Are you crossed up? The pictures do no show you being crossed up. The pic labeled “Day two other direction” is the closest to crossed up I see. Your bum is off the seat a litte bit but your head is dead center. No big deal really from the looks of the corner and lean angle. A assumed pre-apex?

Your shoulders – Relax them and let them fall to a comfortable level and at that point, your hands should follow along without thinking about them. Check out your inside shoulder in the different pics. Are you consistently relaxed? Do you think it’s also a clue that you could be too tight on the bars also? Lemme ask you this, what can you do with one of your arms to give it a rest while cornering? Hint: Your tank

Pics labeled “Day two side” and “Noob rear shot” – shows an average BP that looks pretty darn good for one day of work. A more aggressive BP (a la Peanut) would put your head/chin within an inch or two from the back of your hand or even lower. Have a look through most of track riders pics (including my own) here and you will see you look much like them and only a few have a “very” aggressive BP. No worries, it’s something we build up to and only really use when the pace demands such aggressiveness.

Your feet/toe and peg scraping – As you know, try to minimize this when possible. You know what you need to do here but there is a way to relax your outside food and at the same assist in steering at the next level but that is for another discussion. Maybe it's time to start thinking about losing the stock rearsets and get some aftermarket ones that are higher.

Pulling the bike over with you? Are you still on the gas when getting your bum off the seat? When moving across the seat, what are you using for stability and to hold yourself on the bike? Your hands? Do this… go to youtube and search for knee to knee and tell me if you think that will help you here.

Clipons, rearsets and setting farther back in the seat go a long way in helping a rider get into a more aggressive position on the bike. Not sure why you think you get off the bike too much, looks fine to me???? Overall you look fabulous!

Ps. I like the suit, I have a similar one myself.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by Panda

Nothing to add except you look badass in this pic -

Thanks! That's actually my fav of the weekend.

Originally Posted by geeker

Your bp looks better than mine at my recent first trackday. While I understand @Motofool's idea of weight distribution, your rear end is just as important. All in all, I think your first efforts are much better than my own. Try to grip both handlebars like a screwdriver and that should alleviate the awkward wrists. But work on things incrementally until you have each facet of your bp down.

LOL my first trackday I looked my a stiff board on the bike. This is my fourth and finally feeling brave enough to try moving.

Since you've both pointed out my awkward wrists, i'll definitely have to work on that next time. Our instructors recommend either a screwdriver or a door handle. I must have the wrong image in mind since when I tried that, my wrists hurt so much after the first lap I had to pull off nearly in tears. I'm used to a dull ache of riding for hours, but that 4 minutes was sheer pain. I'll grab someone next time to better demonstrate how to hold my wrists properly.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

I'm used to a dull ache of riding for hours, but that 4 minutes was sheer pain. I'll grab someone next time to better demonstrate how to hold my wrists properly.

This is another clue about being tight on the bars.

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is another clue about being tight on the bars.

I'll answer your longer one in a bit as I need to think on the questions you raise (and my cat is making responding rather difficult at the moment).

I have wondered about being too heavy/tight on the bars. The response we hear to being loose on the bars is being able to flap your arms around. I can easily move my shoulders and arms and yet still feel the ache in my hands (even a bit of numbness by the end of the day). I was writing that off the the vibration in the grips but now I'm getting that sense that's not normal.

[csmith12]

Tight on the bars comes in 2 forms. Stiff arms and shoulders and/or a tight grip. Both make the rider work harder instead of letting the bike do the hard work. In many of my pics, my fingers do not completely wrap the grip. It's another form of receiving to much input. The tighter your grip, the more vibration ya feel.

adouglas has a good point about the stock bars. They suck for trying to get into great bp. I have them on my race bike and I hate it.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

Ok, thank you very much. I'll sit up more which will also help in seeing as I was finding I was looking over my glasses at times.



Oh, um, what's the rest of the puzzle? I just started this because my pegs were scraping and heard/read you hang off to straighten the bike up. Though I didn't stop scraping entirely, I didn't scrape nearly as much.

I'm a really slow learner and it takes me awhile to see things i am doing. I may not be able to see those other parts yet, but if they are lodged in my head somewhere now, when the time comes I may have a better chance of recognizing them.

And thank you.

I don't know what the rest of the puzzle is but I'd say some raised rearsets would help but for the rest of the puzzle I'm sure someone on here can direct you to a book or something that can help.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't know what the rest of the puzzle is but I'd say some raised rearsets would help but for the rest of the puzzle I'm sure someone on here can direct you to a book or something that can help.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...ornering_form/

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...ng_your_knees/

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...torcycle_bars/

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe..._off_in_style/

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe..._riding_moves/

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...smooth_riding/

[NevadaWolf]

Yay! Reading material!!

[ally99]

Hey Teri! You look fantastic!! My advice mirrors what others have already said, but in a nutshell, practice dropping that inside shoulder as you set your lean. Just kinda let it go limp. Rest your outside arm on the tank and grip with your outer leg. Let the inside leg loose. It looks like you *might* still have yours a little stiff. And you're right, balls of feet on your pegs. Make that your first habit to develop before working on other things because you don't want to drag toe. That can end badly.
Raised rearsets help me feel more comfortable and less "bunched up" at the track. Most of all, stay LOOSE! Wiggle those fingers, arms, whatever. Relax, breathe, and trust your bike. You got this!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

Nothing to add except you look badass in this pic -

I know right!

@ally99 - dangit, you gave her one of the answers to her homework questions.

[NevadaWolf]

Who what?? Yay, thanks @ally99.

:combs through posts to find right homework question:

[choneofakind]

Dang, I hope I get some that are as good as that one. Great pictures!! I have nothing to add since I'm a track newbie myself, except that here's me in that suit that csmith12 was talking about last summer:

[NevadaWolf]

Oh yeah, I remember the twinsies suit! You look cool perched on your bike!

Keoke Photography gets some epic shots throughout the day. My only minor concern is they go out on the first session which for C group is boring sighting laps pictures. But they move all over the track and have a few photogs out there. I'm glad to hand them money at the end of the day.

[choneofakind]

Dude, track photographers rock. I still can't believe how beautifully they turn out.

Twinsies.

[alex.s]

didn't bother reading anything but the OP, but some small suggestions:

1) you still have room behind your butt. i find its easier to stay within the air pocket with the butt further back. it also helps me get all of my leg on the side of the bike when the bike is leaned over. having more surface area of your leg on holding on the bike makes it easier to hold. it also makes it easier to relax because you have your entire leg on the bike, not just your knee/shin, and boot on the peg.

2) so the last part kinda leads into this part... outside foot positioning on the peg. for my leg length, it works better for me to have the outside foot on the heel of the boot on the peg. then i point my toes. so then if you pull straight back on the peg, it kinda locks it in a little bit. so locked in foot with the entire leg against the bike (not just points)... and you can now kinda relax a little bit when you are leaned over. your back will still be doing a lot of support, but now your arms are free to flop around like limp dicks.

3) inside hands. so in your photos, your inside hand is holding the bar straight on. what this does is force you to bend your wrist in an awkward way which ends up feeling bad and limiting your upper body movement. so if you actually just rotate your hand and move it to the outside a bit more so its more like you are holding an icecream cone instead of grabbing a hand rail, it will be much easier to get your upper body down lower, and moving your upper body around will be far easier when leaned over. for the throttle hand, it also makes it a lot easier to smoothly apply throttle while you are all the way over.

a good way to tell if you are relaxed up top... coming out of a corner when you are full throttle, the bike should start to pick itself up... let it. dont let it change your upper body though. stay loose and you'll feel the bike go up while you stay down... once you get higher up you can transition BP for the next setup

oh yeah, relax your shoulders and remember to breathe.

[alex.s]

one more point about being back in the seat... during braking, having more of your body behind the pegs means you can kinda push forward on the outside peg under heavy braking... this is good because it again-- frees up your arms so they dont have to support your upper body. if you haven't noticed, that is the important part of riding. being able to put in the input you want, without being forced to put in input you don't want.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

one more point about being back in the seat... during braking, having more of your body behind the pegs means you can kinda push forward on the outside peg under heavy braking... this is good because it again-- frees up your arms so they dont have to support your upper body. if you haven't noticed, that is the important part of riding. being able to put in the input you want, without being forced to put in input you don't want.

i didn't wanna interfere and just facepalm and let natural selection do its thing but alex you're giving wrong advice.

1. the more back you're at the seat the more extended your arms are and you can't keep your arms relaxed. any bump and since there's no bend in your elbow your handlebars push your whole arm/shoulders and we know how that ends..

2. the more back you sit the more weight you're putting on your rear shock in every little bump. do you think a loaded spring works better through bumps or a not so loaded one?

3. this might not apply to 250's but if you're braking hard and your rear tire is spinning, you wanna be ,again, closer to the tank. if your weight is all the way at the back of the seat, the slide is gonna get even worse and your ass will move more with it.

4. again maybe not a 250 issue but if you don't sit forward and up against the tank and forward at the exit, you'll have a lot of unwanted wheelies.

[Motofool]

[csmith12]

I gots no clue about the above couple of posts....

The general rule in seating position is; About a fists width between your crotch and the tank, then adjust as needed. Don't need to be all the way forward, nor all the way back. It's basically far enough back or far enough forward to get your knee under the lip of the tank, not that the 250 has much of a lip anyway. So you got to take advantage of what little there is. It's different for everyone.

There is a sweet spot for your bum in the seat & body on the bike. You will know it when you feel it, everything feels much, much better. Experiment around to find it. If you can find it, everything else follows more easily.

[alex.s]

oh really!

Originally Posted by Gurk

1. the more back you're at the seat the more extended your arms are and you can't keep your arms relaxed. any bump and since there's no bend in your elbow your handlebars push your whole arm/shoulders and we know how that ends..

you're right. you have short arms. try looking at the photos in the OP. not short arms.

Originally Posted by Gurk

2. the more back you sit the more weight you're putting on your rear shock in every little bump. do you think a loaded spring works better through bumps or a not so loaded one?

the spring is already loaded. and should be properly setup for the way you use the bike.

Originally Posted by Gurk

3. this might not apply to 250's but if you're braking hard and your rear tire is spinning, you wanna be ,again, closer to the tank. if your weight is all the way at the back of the seat, the slide is gonna get even worse and your ass will move more with it.

if you are braking hard, why would you want to get weight away from the rear tire which is trying to lift off of the ground? moving toward the tank will make it more likely you actually pick up the rear wheel. weight further back means more weight on the rear wheel which means harder to actually slide.

Originally Posted by Gurk

4. again maybe not a 250 issue but if you don't sit forward and up against the tank and forward at the exit, you'll have a lot of unwanted wheelies.

[/QUOTE]

its an issue on 250s at race start. thats about it. if you have proper upper body position, your weight is on the side of the gas tank. if you are wheelying it sounds like you have throttle control problems.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I gots no clue about the above couple of posts....

The general rule in seating position is; About a fists width between your crotch and the tank, then adjust as needed. Don't need to be all the way forward, nor all the way back. It's basically far enough back or far enough forward to get your knee under the lip of the tank, not that the 250 has much of a lip anyway. So you got to take advantage of what little there is. It's different for everyone.

There is a sweet spot for your bum in the seat & body on the bike. You will know it when you feel it, everything feels much, much better. Experiment around to find it. If you can find it, everything else follows more easily.

this is completely true. when i mean all the way forward i don't mean smash your ballz up against the tank

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

bunch of stuff

that was about the extent of time i was willing to spend replying to you.
try simon crafar / motovudu and jason pridmore / star school and let me know what you think..

cya!

[alex.s]

lol. whats that PR at button willow again gurk?

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

lol. whats that PR at button willow again gurk?

2.16

how is your question relevant?

I don't come on these forums pretend i'm an expert and give out advice like i'm a pro racer. I go listen to people who know what they're talking about and rephrase them where it applies.

I don't pretend I'm a mechanic and "help" my friends. I ask a pro mechanic and learn stuff and only help friends apply what I've learned if I'm sure..

See any difference yet between how we approach this?

[alex.s]

haha lol. i think i might start to see it. so you want to try to explain how suggesting its a good idea to move forward on the seat to brake is good advice? how exactly would taking weight off of a sliding tire make the bike slide less? or how you are on a 250 forum in a thread from a guy riding a 250 and you are trying to say the advice for a 250 rider is bad advice "because you'll wheelie coming out of a corner"? what about how you are suggesting to someone that is clearly cramped for space up front that... actually if they move back two more inches their arms will be locked out and they won't be able to properly control their inputs...

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

haha lol. i think i might start to see it. so you want to try to explain how suggesting its a good idea to move forward on the seat to brake is good advice? how exactly would taking weight off of a sliding tire make the bike slide less? or how you are on a 250 forum in a thread from a guy riding a 250 and you are trying to say the advice for a 250 rider is bad advice "because you'll wheelie coming out of a corner"?

I mentioned those 2 might not relate to 250. Did I not make it clear enough for you?

If you brake hard enough the rear WILL slide. Would you wanna be in control of the slide or go with it? How are you gonna be in control when your ass is all over the place sliding left and right right on top of the rear wheel? instead, if you're forward and get in your position to go into a corner the bike will point in the right direction and once the slide stops you'll be able to release brakes and apply throttle.

Again. These are not my keyboard racer opinions. I heard it from Simon Crafar and Pridmore. I tried it out on track and found it to be true.

I also tried your way too. First few tracks when I didn't know better I took that advice of sitting very back. All it did was upset the rear shock and felt like i was on a ****ing dirt track.

[alex.s]

oh yeah? you must be sub 1:50 at chuckwalla huh.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

oh yeah? you must be sub 1:50 at chuckwalla huh.

again, you prove to be a waste of time and a nobody.

here's a more relevant question. out of all the races you attended (5?4?) how many of them did you crash out of?

oh right. you were pushing the limit. so if you didn't crash you were gonna break lap record

you know crashing is a part of riding but.. you'd think one would just look at what he's doing wrong when he's crashing so many times and not racing for a podium spot.

at least every single small step i've taken has been forward and i never pretended to be fast. My chuckwalla best is 2.14 on my 2nd visit clockwise. I'm proud of it. Cause it can only go down more. I have a learning attitude. Not know it all.

[alex.s]

i have crashed out of exactly 0 races. would you like to try again?

you seem to not understand what a forum is. people ask for opinions, other people post it. i posted my opinion, you posted your opinion that my opinion was wrong. definitely sounds like a learning attitude.

btw for an example, me and max have been running sub 2:14 on the 250s at chuckwalla for awhile. how many HP difference is it on the r6? 30 to... 110hp? you definitely need to be backing it in and hook turning. you got this.

how many times have you crashed at the track gurk?

[Trailerboy531]

I'm not getting in to this but for (depressing) clarification Alex has never crashed in a race and I'm the guy who crashes all the time because I wasn't examining what I was doing wrong and all of my crashes were not while racing.

Alex has crashed twice; only once in the last year and it was in qualifying.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i have crashed out of exactly 0 races. would you like to try again?

you seem to not understand what a forum is. people ask for opinions, other people post it. i posted my opinion, you posted your opinion that my opinion was wrong. definitely sounds like a learning attitude.

btw for an example, me and max have been running sub 2:14 on the 250s at chuckwalla for awhile. how many HP difference is it on the r6? 30 to... 110hp? you definitely need to be backing it in and hook turning. you got this.

oh ok. so you crashed out of fp/qp and was able to race a total of 2 times?
lap times mean sooooo much when you can't even race or keep it up right

have you ever ridden a super sport? do you think you just twist the thorttle and go fast?

I've ridden for only 2 years and have always been on a super sport on track. I'm doing just fine buddy. Like I said, sub 2:14 (aka 2:13? ) is something I can beat and i'm in no hurry. It won't satisfy me that I beat you. Because you're irrelevant to my quest to become faster. If you noticed I don't ask your Buttonwillow best time. Cause I don't care.

Kudos to Max. I never had any problem with him. Infact I'm looking forward to go to streets of willow with him next weekend and talk about the track and how we both approach it. I hope he gets faster every day. At least he doesn't bs around like u do about riding/mechanic/all things motorcycle. All my convos with him has been supportive to each other.

[alex.s]

****in' qualifying.