What would you have done? Car coming into you from left but another car to your right

[Omarel]

I had a close call. What would you have done?

On a 40mph road. Was going to make a left which had its own left lane to turn left. As I was waiting to make the left, there was car turning right out of that street I was going in, and the car, instead of turning into his lane, he was slowly turning wide and was swinging his car into my lane right where I was still.

Unfortunately, without looking to my right I served my bike to the right to avoid him. Luckily I didn't go into the main lane, but I was really close, and a huge van flew by me on my right side and nearly brushed me. Had to be inches away.

I was like ****. What did I just do.

I realized I tried to evade this car that was coming into me but I didn't have the instinct that I could've swerved too much into my right and have been hit by another car badly.

A definite learning experience in a lucky way, but I'm wondering....

Had I even noticed that car flying by my right how would I have evaded that car making a wide right turn swinging into me?

Hope this makes sense.

[adouglas]

No-win scenario. If an oncoming car is going to be exactly where you are and you have nowhere to go, you're the bug on the windshield.

Standard answer is to always give yourself an escape route, e.g. when at a light, angle your bike so you can get out of there if someone's about to rear-end you, monitor mirrors and crossing traffic, etc.

[Omarel]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Standard answer is to always give yourself an escape route, e.g. when at a light, angle your bike so you can get out of there if someone's about to rear-end you, monitor mirrors and crossing traffic, etc.

Interesting. This isn't the first time I've felt that when riding I should never get to close to the end of any intersection while waiting. I've seen cars come really close often.

[csmith12]

O, first off I am glad you came out of your situation unharmed and your quick thinking worked out in your favor. But.... you're asking the wrong questions my friend. The question should be how to avoid that situation going forward.

Some examples;
Where in the lane did you stop?
Did you signal?
Did you check your mirrors to have a clue what was behind you?
Did you pass any cages before the intersection?
Was the car already stopped at the intersection when you arrived?
Can you eliminate this intersection from your route?
Is this intersection in a high traffic, high distraction area?

I can't exactly explain it but it kinda goes like this when I am riding street. My turn is coming up (around 12 seconds of vision). During those 12 seconds I am on high alert of possible outcomes that are constantly changing based on what I am seeing. If I feel any possible outcomes are beyond my risk level... I simply will not turn and continue until I can uturn.

Mr. Fist is 100% right though. There are no win situations, but having a plan b on tap as often as you can will serve you well on a bike or in a cage. Never forget the golden rule, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

So to answer your question, I would pose one to you. Were there any clues that would have alerted you to being at risk?

Lastly, @Motofool has some great graphics of different places to put you and your bike during different situations. They are a great review, even for experienced riders.

Best of luck to you!

[Omarel]

@csmith these are all great questions.

I'm not sure I could've predicted this, but I realized that a sudden swerve without knowing what's there is very dangerous.

My mirrors don't give me a good view. No matter how I adjust them, I mostly see my arms and a little to the left and right side and not much behind me.

I hate that on a bike I can't see the view directly behind me while riding, like in a car.

I read in "Proficient motorcycle" that rear ends account for a tiny percentage of accidents, but the more I ride I realize that the action of cars speeding from behind me play a big part in my safety. Every time I ride I'm like damn where did that car come from??

Sometimes I'll turn my whole head and by the time I go to do the next action another unexpected car has already gotten in view again.

- Are there any add-ons or hacks to make mirrors show what's directly behind you and also open up the views more to your rear left and right?

- Also can you link me to those graphics you mentioned.

[csmith12]

Mirror extenders can help with getting past your arms, some riders like bar end mirrors. YMMV using either solution.

I am seeing a theme in your comments though. The theme is "surprises". The skill of prediction is very hard to build without direct experience. I can post about what I did to my kids to teach them prediction when I taught them to drive if you would like, just let me know. Most surprises can be avoided with improving visual skills and putting you and your bike in the area of least risk, it's your best weapon while riding. As a msf coach, we touch on this topic often but wish it was represented stronger in the materials and hope some day they have a specific visual skill range drill.

Anyway, here is the link you asked for. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Mirror extenders can help with getting past your arms, some riders like bar end mirrors. YMMV using either solution.

I am seeing a theme in your comments though. The theme is "surprises". The skill of prediction is very hard to build without direct experience. I can post about what I did to my kids to teach them prediction when I taught them to drive if you would like, just let me know. Most surprises can be avoided with improving visual skills and putting you and your bike in the area of least risk, it's your best weapon while riding. As a msf coach, we touch on this topic often but wish it was represented stronger in the materials and hope some day they have a specific visual skill range drill.

Anyway, here is the link you asked for. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

@Omarel; It is important you persue the knowledge Chris is offering! You can't make yourself bulletproof however; there are many "Best Practices" that will help you to survive out on the streets! The best money you can spend in motorcycling is for training. Take at least one advanced riding school program that is focused on street riding schools. They will be offered by a school near you. If I were you; my first step would be to PM Chris!

[Omarel]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I am seeing a theme in your comments though. The theme is "surprises". The skill of prediction is very hard to build without direct experience. I can post about what I did to my kids to teach them prediction when I taught them to drive if you would like, just let me know. [/URL]

Yeah, I'm a new rider, less than a year, getting surprised everyday. I took the msf course and read 2 textbooks on riding. I watch a ton of videos to study the hazards. It's helped me avoid riding recklessly, but I feel like it takes real riding practice for some of these things to become instinctual. The unfortunate thing is I'm practicing in real danger.

At the same time, I'm really trying not to let the fear prevent me from riding.

You said something amazing here that really hit home for me. The skill of prediction! That's exactly it!

Because no matter how much I try and use my (albeit newbie) skills while riding, without predicting what could happen it becomes useless in a way.

That was an interesting post you sent over.

Yes, I would love to hear more about prediction and any other things you can point me to. I'm going to do some research into an advanced msf course in my area.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Omarel

Yeah, I'm a new rider, less than a year, getting surprised everyday. I took the msf course and read 2 textbooks on riding. I watch a ton of videos to study the hazards. It's helped me avoid riding recklessly, but I feel like it takes real riding practice for some of these things to become instinctual. The unfortunate thing is I'm practicing in real danger.

At the same time, I'm really trying not to let the fear prevent me from riding.

You said something amazing here that really hit home for me. The skill of prediction! That's exactly it!

Because no matter how much I try and use my (albeit newbie) skills while riding, without predicting what could happen it becomes useless in a way.

That was an interesting post you sent over.

Yes, I would love to hear more about prediction and any other things you can point me to. I'm going to do some research into an advanced msf course in my area.

Roadcraft - police rider's handbook, I don't know if there's a 'wrong side of the road' edition for the USA, but it's worth a read.

Find some quiet backroads to practise on.

[Motofool]

[QUOTE=Omarel;1075636]

Originally Posted by Omarel

........ I'm not sure I could've predicted this, but I realized that a sudden swerve without knowing what's there is very dangerous.

The situation that you described has no easy way out; as explained by others, avoiding to put yourself in it, if possible, is the best approach.
Left turns are bad news in most cases, especially if a curb-divider is present.

Any situation in which we seat still is bad, it takes precious few seconds to accelerate to escape: sometimes timing the turn by slowing down some, so you arrive to it at the right moment to initiate the turn, is less risky than becoming a sitting duck.
Having some speed enables us to quickly change positions and/or speed.

I was forced to be in that situation everyday during my work commute and my best approach was to stop close to the right lane, keep the bike in first and ready to launch forward and study every driver approaching to turn right and swing by me ...... way before they reached the corner.
I did spot many distracted and sloppy drivers that way and I had to launch forward more than a couple of times.

Crossing to the right lane would be a gambling risk, as your case has demonstrated.

......... My mirrors don't give me a good view. No matter how I adjust them, I mostly see my arms and a little to the left and right side and not much behind me.

I hate that on a bike I can't see the view directly behind me while riding, like in a car.

I read in "Proficient motorcycle" that rear ends account for a tiny percentage of accidents, but the more I ride I realize that the action of cars speeding from behind me play a big part in my safety. Every time I ride I'm like damn where did that car come from??

Sometimes I'll turn my whole head and by the time I go to do the next action another unexpected car has already gotten in view again.

- Are there any add-ons or hacks to make mirrors show what's directly behind you and also open up the views more to your rear left and right?


Check this out:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/I_hate_these_mirrors

When stopping, I angle my bike in order to have a great view from one of my mirrors and to be able to launch forward into the space between the two cars ahead of me, in case someone doesn't come to a stop in a normal way.

When riding, I use both mirrors, moving my elbows in, but not much to prevent rear end crashes but in order to asses the situation around me so I can continuously plan my escape routes.

Either using the mirrors or head turns, the key is not to use any time looking rearward, but rather to take a picture and return the face to look forward and only then to process the information of that picture and plan a reaction if needed.

Most chances of crashes come from your 11 to 1 o'clock and you are moving toward that point at tens of feet per second: "Proficient motorcycle" is correct, what is ahead of your trajectory requires 90% of your attention, in any condition and moment.

....... Yeah, I'm a new rider, less than a year, getting surprised everyday. I took the msf course and read 2 textbooks on riding. I watch a ton of videos to study the hazards. It's helped me avoid riding recklessly, but I feel like it takes real riding practice for some of these things to become instinctual. The unfortunate thing is I'm practicing in real danger.

At the same time, I'm really trying not to let the fear prevent me from riding.

Riding in fear is a very bad thing.
Fear tends to paralyze us, limiting our best performance, mental and skills-wise.
With practice, you will develop a better situational awareness and predictability of what other drivers tend to do.
The only thing that we can do to survive the increasing lack of attention of road users is to increase our attention to our surroundings up to the point of becoming mind readers.

These additional links may help you:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110975

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=968012

http://www.roadrunner.travel/2015/06...state-of-mind/

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120133

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114372

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213771

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149961

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=165053

[Pigeonherd]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I can post about what I did to my kids to teach them prediction when I taught them to drive if you would like, just let me know.

I'm interested......

Originally Posted by csmith12

Anyway, here is the link you asked for. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

@Omarel There's also this option, which I wish were listed on the hate-these-mirrors thread bc they're seriously cool:
https://www.doubletakemirror.com/

The back of which would actually be a great place for some of these guys:

retro-reflective stickers

[Omarel]

Originally Posted by Pigeonherd

There's also this option, which I wish were listed on the hate-these-mirrors thread bc they're seriously cool:
https://www.doubletakemirror.com/

Oh wow, super cool! I thought it was only me. My stock mirrors are useless. These can be life saving.

[MBZuki]

When I'm pulling up to intersections/stopping I always try to fit in a couple rear-checks to maybe catch someone who's looking down or anywhere else but where they should be. Regardless it's a lousy situation to be in.

[CaliGrrl]

That would be a scary spot to be in. So I'm seeing that predicting the stupid is the key. Gotcha.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Omarel

Yes, I would love to hear more about prediction and any other things you can point me to.

Originally Posted by Pigeonherd

I'm interested......

Ok gentlemen, prediction. It's a big, nasty, hard subject to tackle but ultimately boils down to three main factors. Observation, speed of thought and accepting that you can't know the future.

Here is how I taught this to my kids.

1. I had them do mazes and timed them. It helped me teach them to look farther & wider than the tip of their pencil. Same thing on a bike, focusing on the front of the bike is just like focusing on the tip of the pencil.

2. They played pong, breakout and billiards with me. This one starts easy and then gets faster and faster, as breakout progresses. It directly works on your observation and speed of thought skills. You can increase the difficulty by playing the breakout game with multiple balls. If you get too good at breakout, start wearing an eyepatch and try again. Oh, if you can, play breakout on a 70'' widescreen tv. When you play billiards, play "bank", where the object ball must hit a rail before falling into a pocket and don't forget to call your shots. Observing and predicting those angles will help.

3. I introduced them to randomness. Walk down your hall, passing by your mate. Do you expect them to trip you? No? Maybe just once? I would do crap to my kids to keep them on edge, guessing what I would do. Sometimes it would be nothing, other times they would have dodge a sliding chair. My 22yr old daughter still wonders if I would throat jab here when we pass by. It started simple enough though. I would ask them to hold my glass and then begin to pour knowing it would miss because I wasn't even over the cup. They had to adjust the glass before the pop started to come out or clean up the mess. Traffic is the worst about this, for example. Take 30 cages on the highway, at any given time they are doing the same thing without much fuss. A statistics class will teach you that smaller sample sizes give the most variance. Applying that to the street, statistically you're safer on the highway than on some random street with you and only one other motorist. This randomness is a sobering reminder that you cannot become complacent with what you believe is the future.

4. And lastly, I had them heard cats and/or chase chickens. God knows I have enough cats. If you can catch a semi feral cat, you are doing pretty good. They are fast, agile and can change direction faster than you can think. So you have to predict! I have this one estranged cat, it doesn't like to be touched. Only after my kids could catch it, I would allow them to drive. I knew my middle daughter was ahead of the game when she asked me to block a path while she was running. At that point I knew she was thinking ahead of her current place.

fyi... Many people distress over teaching someone to drive. I honestly love every minute of the torture they have to endure by picking me as their teacher.

EDIT: OH! I forgot to note how I was taught to predict. My father handed me a 22 rifle and we when rabbit hunting. In order to hit em, you gotta lead em. ie... predict where they will be when you pull the trigger. I still hunt rabbits with a 22 to this very day.

[BernawanFR]

Glad you're okay, but...I simply cannot answer that question because it would be unequal if I was in that kind of situation. It's spontaneous reaction I guess, I cannot predict to do this or that on a traffic.

Well...I would try to be more aware of the surrounding, to keep that close call thing from happening

[Ninja Rob]

When I drive my car or ride my bike, I made it a habit to try to notice ALL that is going on around me, even in the lanes that don't pertain to me. At this point. It is already second nature to me. If I cant see in front of the car in front of me, I keep a good distance and keep an eye on his break lights. If I can see the car in front of the car in front of me. I keep an eye on his break lights. Gives you an early warning if there is an abrupt stop in traffic. I watch oncoming traffic from a distance to see if they will cross over into my lane. When approaching 4 ways, I always slow down just a little, and make sure there are no cars coming or approaching the stop that might try to pass the stop. Look at every drive way that can possibly feed cars into your lanes. It helps if you are familiar with the roads you are on. You should know which are higher risk zones. I always check my rear view mirrors every now and then. Helps me keep tabs on who is behind me, which cars are driving more aggressive and likely to pas me up, which drivers are not being attentive. Basically, I try to be as much aware of everything going on around me as possible. You never want to be suprised on the road. But hey, it happens.