I REALLY need your input

[Sailariel]

I don`t know if this is the right place, but I need some input from the "Family". Somehow I am not "getting it". My 25 year old nephew just got his permit and has not taken the MSF Course--nor does he intend to, since his "friends" are going to teach him anything he needs to know. Obviously, I am a geezer who rides a wimpy 250 and does not know jack. The fact that I have 50 years experience with no accidents further proves that I am a real wuss. The problem I have is that he bought a ZX10R as his first bike, used, from one of his friends who bought a Hayabusa (The friend is also 25 and has been riding for two years--also no MSF Course) MSF courses are for losers. I am not close to this nephew--but he is family and it does affect us. His father is one of those Libertarians whose philosophy is "Let him do his thing." As I read this thread, I feel I should really be writing to "Dear Abby", but she would not know a ZX10R from a `Busa. I have tried the "appreciation approach"--start small and work up, but that fell on deaf ears since all his friends are riding the heavy hardware. I am at a loss. Wife says, there is not a damn thing you can do that you haven`t done already. She says, "No such thing as bad kids--just bad parents." I just can`t seem to dismiss it like that. Am waiting for the other shoe to drop. Maybe I should see a Shrink.

[Tigress]

Have you tried talking to his parents to try and convince them to talk to him. Of course it sounds like it will go in one ear and out the other. How about showing them some videos and posts of accidents? It sounds like he and his "friends" are perfect examples of squids unfortunately, and there are a ton of videos on the internet. Maybe they need some SHOCK tv. Outside of that, if you're a religious person, stay prayed up and have faith that angels will watch over him and keep him.

[JaeL]

Wow that's a big bike. I am 25 and didn't/won't be taking the MSF because I am just as stubborn. Does he know how to properly operate the bike, ie basics? BTW at 25 were any of you still asking mommy and daddy permission to do things?

[ninjabrewer]

Sounds like he is at that age where he is invincible. If you were close to him, I would suggest that you might pay for his class or part of it. Convince him that the MSF class can get him his license for him, no need to take the ride test. As far as the ZX-10, I can't offer any advice on that. The invincible youth of today are no different than the invincible youth of our time. It will take a shock to convince him.

nb

[bob706]

If you have done your best to convince him to take the MSF, I say let him go and pray for him. Hopefully in six months you still have a nephew. And a ZX-10, for real? I've been told they can be a VERY unforgiving beast. Does your nephew have any expirience at all on a motorcycle at all?

[zartan]

Kudos for caring, folks don't listen to what they don't want to hear.
You can only offer advice. Know that you care and let it go.

Take that advice and apply it to others who will listen. Don't let it go to waste.

[KJohnson21]

I remember that you explained the parents' attitude awhile ago, "You have to let them do their thing." So, they won't help at all.

Unfortunately, it sounds like none of them appreciate the potential dangers that are always present for motorcyclists, especially uneducated motorcyclists. They probably won't until he, or one of his friends, ends up in the ER. Maybe they'll be lucky enough to get through it all without that ever happening. (It is possible, but that's not the kind of thing I like to bet on.)

You can't force him to do it, and if you get too carried with constantly harping about it you'll just alienate him. It might be that all you can do is make sure that he knows what your opinion is and that you're willing to help. (That sounds evangelical, I guess it is.)

My daughters have a number of close friends that they've known over the years, some of them are like foster kids to us. I don't know what I'd do if one of them got into motorcycling and blew off the safety concerns.

[kkim]

What does his mother have to say?

[sofo]

If you have the money, offer to buy him a really good helmet, jacket or other gear if he takes the course. It could be an out for him to tell his buddies he did the course to get his sweet CF helmet and you can rest easier that he took the course and has a good quality piece of protective gear.

If discreet bribery isn't an option, are there any race tracks in your area where you could talk to some racers who have a clue and might be willing to talk to your nephew about the reality of jumping on a ZX-10R with no training in the basics?

[ManyCavies]

Does his insurance offer a discount for the rider safety course? Money talks.

[Sailariel]

Andrew, Super Idea! Get him a gift certificate for some track time at Loudon NH. Maybe that will have some impact. He does have the gear--fortunately that is the in thing.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by kkim

What does his mother have to say?

Kelly, Hate to say this, but the woman is brain dead.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Kelly, Hate to say this, but the woman is brain dead.

runs in the family, eh?

I'm afraid you won't be able to do anything for/with him. He sounds like a spoiled brat.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by KJohnson21

I remember that you explained the parents' attitude awhile ago, "You have to let them do their thing." So, they won't help at all.

Unfortunately, it sounds like none of them appreciate the potential dangers that are always present for motorcyclists, especially uneducated motorcyclists. They probably won't until he, or one of his friends, ends up in the ER. Maybe they'll be lucky enough to get through it all without that ever happening. (It is possible, but that's not the kind of thing I like to bet on.)

You can't force him to do it, and if you get too carried with constantly harping about it you'll just alienate him. It might be that all you can do is make sure that he knows what your opinion is and that you're willing to help. (That sounds evangelical, I guess it is.)

My daughters have a number of close friends that they've known over the years, some of them are like foster kids to us. I don't know what I'd do if one of them got into motorcycling and blew off the safety concerns.

I spoke to him once and mentioned that the ZX10R can be quite a handful. His reply was that compared to the "Moped Iam riding" that may very well be true. I had no answer for that and simply bit my tongue. I really have no intention to get into a pissing match with him or his parents--It is that I have seen enough carnage in my life and do not need to see more.

[sombo]

I hate to say it, but he sounds like another one of those ultra-macho lost causes. It's sad, because those kind of riders are 100% clueless about how they not only put themselves at extreme risk, but also the others around them. Add to that how they are the ones that are destroying the biker image and making non-bikers look at ALL bikers as nothing more then ego-maniacal, speed freaks with no care or intelligence.

His little group are the ones that don't realize that virtually all of the best racers out there in EVERY class started small in order to learn how to push a vehicle to it's absolute limit without losing control. You can't do that if your first vehicle is nearly the top machine in it's class. So totally clueless.

I agree with the sending him to the track and have a real racer talk to him. If that doesn't work, then find a really tight twisty course and go spank his arse with the 250. Then rub it in his face "What happened to your superbike? Can't it keep up with my 'little moped'?" hehe

Yes I'm mean when I want to be. And I only throw that suggestion out since alot of times the only way to reach guys like that is to fight fire with fire and make them look stupid. Sad method but sometimes it's the only thing they'll listen to.

[noche_caliente]

hmmm, get him neutered and some neuticals implanted... then send his mom the link to rideordie.com.... ok, so neither of those options will actually help, but they hopefully gave you a good laugh at least

[KJohnson21]

Originally Posted by sombo

If that doesn't work, then find a really tight twisty course and go spank his arse with the 250. Then rub it in his face "What happened to your superbike? Can't it keep up with my 'little moped'?" hehe

That might work, but I don't think that Alex want's to be the one that the kid's following if (when) he gets in over his head.

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by sombo

If that doesn't work, then find a really tight twisty course and go spank his arse with the 250. Then rub it in his face "What happened to your superbike? Can't it keep up with my 'little moped'?" hehe

While the emotional side of us would like to do that it won't help one bit in this situation (imho) and could well end up having him wipe out trying to keep up with the 250.

Alex I think you have done all you can do at this point. All that is left is to be there for him when he a) wipes out or b) finally grows up. Hopefully it is b) and that happens before a).

Some place I once read there are three situations; ones you can control, ones you can influence, and ones you have no control over. The point being if you are in control you can change the outcome, if you can influence you might be able to change the outcome, but if you have no control you can only try which you have.

Don't eat yourself up Alex. You've done all you can do.

[sombo]

Sarcasm never comes through on the computer.

Yes, that was meant as a joke. I would hate to see your nephew wreck. However if he is ever going to wreck I would rather have it happen at a track with full gear and a safety crew on call then with no gear and on the street.

As others have stated, you're at the point where there might not be anything more you can do but pray.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Tough to tell these young kids anything. Of course 20 yrs ago when I was 25 I wouldn't listen either. Was at the shop the other day and a guy asked the salesguy if an ECU override (power commander, etc) could trump the 186 mph limit. Then I hear someone mention 600 cc bikes being lethargic under 7K rpm. I wanted to tell him that my bike has no 186 mph limiter in place, but he would just dismiss the 250 anyway.

[kazam58]

Alex, I really hate to say it, but beyond making him go to a school of some sort, there's nothing you can do. I'm part of this young generation (and stereotypically speaking: I'm younger and more stupid) and I see this a lot. And it bothers me. I like to think that I'm far more mature than most other kids my age (I'm a nerd on a bike, quite honestly). I bought the ninjette because it was small, paid for it all myself, and I have no one to impress. Sometimes I wish I had friends to ride with, but then I always remember that they would be like your nephew.
I did my best not to go on a rant. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful, but situations like these just really bother me.

[addy126]

I see so many in here dumping their 250's for many different reasons, the most common tho is "inexperience". This tells me prepare yourself when it comes to the 10R and pray to god its a small incident that wakes him up. I do support the "take him to a track" suggestion. Some learn thru doing, it may very well help you.

[andrewexd]

tell him to get an insurance quote

[backinthesaddleagain]

Part of the problem is also how good bikes are today. Lets face it a 600 isn't that much heavier than a 250, and a 1000 isn't that much heavier than a 600. In fact the CBR900RR was once lower weight than a 600RR.
I had lunch with a buddy yesterday. We rode trail bikes together in the 70s and he has worked in bike shops on and off over 20 years. He agreed part of the problem is again how good the bikes are. He has a 700 and a literbike. As he put it remember when a CB1100F just felt so much bigger than a CB750F, and if you weren't sure you went middle of the road and got a CB900F (early 80s). Those bikes felt big, were heavy, and the brakes weren't anything like we have today.
Therefore the big bikes made you respect them and maybe shy away from buying them. Today's big bikes don't have that big bike feel, until you are overcooking it in a turn with no room to recover safely.
Now thats not to say I don't sit on a 600 or 1000 every week, then ride home at 45mph or so and say geez I have plenty of throttle left, why would I need a faster bike where/how I ride.

[P1NDLESK1N]

I know in NY the MSF course takes 10-15% off ANY vehicle insurance.

If I were to price insurance for a 10R at the age of 25, I would love me some discounts.

[dimeified]

Look, my buddy Gary bought a Suzuki GSXR600 around June (didnt take MSF). I bought my Ninja 250R around July (I took MSF). 2 weeks ago he "had to lay down the bike because a woman stopped short." What he really means is, "i didn't do the msf course and when i was following this broad i didn't give myself 4 seconds of space so when i braked i didn't have enough space and rear ended her. Did i mention i didn't use 70/30 front/rear brake pressure because i didn't take msf?"

Today i almost ran over a rusty muffler or catalytic converter on the Cross Bronx Expressway in NY because I didn't keep the 4 second rule. I only missed it by chance. Had I been in line with it there's NO CHANCE IN HELL i would have been able to avoid it.

What lesson did i learn?
650 boy's bike is wrecked, my 250 is still screaming. MSF 1, DMV 0.

If its possible for him to switch to a 250 and it is a viable option and your serious about getting him into it, tell him to youtube some 250r track videos. The first time i did this i decided that I will not be upgrading to a bigger bike until my knee touches the track. I am very serious about this and I'll hold myself to it.

edit: i forgot to mention that I'm 26 years old, my buddy Gary is 24.

[Alex]

He's 25. If he's too dense to listen, it's on him. I get the fact that a kid is always someone's kid no matter how old they get, but that doesn't mean treating them as if they were still a kid will have much of an effect. (I realize he's not yours directly, but you still feel somewhat responsible as a close relative). 7 years ago he was old enough to go to war. He's at the point where he can freely decide to do something particularly stupid, it's the American way.

That said, a ZX-10 doesn't equal certain death & dismemberment, just like a Ninja 250 doesn't equal certain safety and security on a motorcycle. Sure, the extra mojo on the literbike can get someone into trouble a little quicker if they are so inclined, but the issue isn't as much the bike as it is the rider. I'd focus less on trying to encourage a change of bike (he's already bought it, it's not going back), and continue to encourage the gear, the training, and finding some non-dense riding mentors.

[dimeified]

Alex pretty much sumed it up, nicely I must add.

[Ntotot]

my opinion:

since he already have zx10 then:

1. Make compulsory to attend MSF course
2. Offer PPE (personal protective equipment)
3. If both the above fails, I'd recommend you to show him the number 4.
4. Show him graphic images when things really turn to bad
http://home1.gte.net/res0ak9f/bike.htm

[DarkNinja52]

just my two cents.
I'm 21 (as of last week w00t) and took the msf course and got my bike last month, 250 of course.
None of my friends ride at all, and know nothing about bikes, but if my friends had much bigger bikes than 250cc i know my decision may and could have been swayed very easily.
I'm sure he got the bike he did because of his friends, and not necessarily because he feels invincible. I'm sure he does as i do occasionally except for reality checks such as my incident today.

But if you are going to talk to him or have his parents talk to him, make sure they address the peer pressure issue, because from what I see, that really is the biggest part. i dont feel that he doesnt want to be safe, or doesnt think motorcycles are dangerous. I'm sure he wants to not feel "inferior" to his friends especially if he is a big guy. I'm only 5'6 so a 250 really isn't a problem for me at all because i don't have a "macho appearance". If he and his friends are bigger guys then they will prob dismiss 250's as "not macho" or w/e buff guys call themselves. I dont know what his appearance, mindset, ego or his friends are like but im sure he has a good idea of how dangerous motorcycles are, and this situation goes a little beyond that. The only thing I think you can do is try to make sure he stays safe and teach him certain things long enough until he can make his own decision because right now it seems like his decisions are greatly influenced by a lot of things.

[dimeified]

Addressing peer pressure issues will likely trigger insecurity in most younger riders because we all like to think that we think independently, and we're not followers. Being the "uncle" wont help, but being THE COOL ASS uncle will, As Alex pointed out earlier, your stance is critical. He bought the ZX, i'd be surprised if he sold it and bought a 250r. Your best bet at this point is to ENCOURAGE him to enjoy the bike but with SAFETY in mind. Point him to this thread let him read up. I was taught in MSF that 4 seconds distance between you and the car in front of you could be a matter of life or death. But i didnt learn it until earlier yesterday when i missed a muffler on the cross bronx in the middle of the highway by inches.

[Verus Cidere]

I can't act like I know what this is like. I really don't understand people like this. I bought my bike when I was 16. It sat in my back yard until I finished the MSF course. I paid for, and continue to pay for everything on, in, and around the bike. I'm not even 18 yet. I hate it every time I hear or see idiots on liter bikes stunting and dragging on the street. I also dread seeing sport bike groups because I can almost guarantee they are going to get themselves hurt. Two other riders at my high school got themselves plowed over in less than a week because neither of them were riding safely. I don't understand this. I do however, understand your worry over your family. IMO, you're being too soft on him. If it were my family being this stupid, wreckless, and self-destructive, I'd get in their face about it, and show them the real data. Bad pictures are good, statistics are good, track days with professionals that he can respect are good, but all together is best. I wouldn't give him the time of day to make fun of my bike because I know that I almost die from other people's mistakes every day. If I can do that on a quarter-liter bike, someone who has NO riding experience can definitely get themselves killed on a liter bike. Again, this is my opinion, but if he won't listen to soft reason, give it to him hard. If it makes people mad, so be it. Your intention is to keep him out of the ER, the statistics list and the morgue.

[Rant/]

[dimeified]

Originally Posted by ninjabrewer

Sounds like he is at that age where he is invincible. If you were close to him, I would suggest that you might pay for his class or part of it.
nb

This is a very interesting post and i would like to expand... I don't know what your financial situation is, but if you can swing it, why not get him and yourself up for MSF? Sure he'll laugh at the beginner exercises, that is, until he hits the uturn box. Trust me, his confidence will be shaken, and he'll be trying the routine on his zx, and when he realized the bike is too damn big for a first time rider, he'll probably ask for advice. As for you, i don't care how experienced you are, a good old fashioned msf ass kickin' with you and the nephew might be the ticket to a mutual understanding, even if you yourself are above the law. Plus from his perspective, if not for quality time with "uncle safety" (im not laughing at you im laughing at your nephew) isn't "hip" these days, then at least the insurance break is chill.

[Jerry]

Originally Posted by Alex

... a ZX-10 doesn't equal certain death & dismemberment, just like a Ninja 250 doesn't equal certain safety and security on a motorcycle. Sure, the extra mojo on the literbike can get someone into trouble a little quicker if they are so inclined, but the issue isn't as much the bike as it is the rider. I'd focus less on trying to encourage a change of bike (he's already bought it, it's not going back), and continue to encourage the gear, the training, and finding some non-dense riding mentors.

As usual, very well said Alex...

I guess if it was my kid, and the bike was bought, I'd just try to get something in his head that would stick a bit...

Something like:
"You know, any bike can kill ya, even my 'moped'...but that monster can do it damn quick....you're gonna do what you're gonna do, but I would sure miss you if you were dead...just asking you to take it easy, until you get some practice in, and don't let your dumb-ass friends get you in over your head..."

[cwb48]

Originally Posted by Dimeified

"had to lay down the bike because a woman stopped short."

She didn't stop short- he stopped long.

Chris

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by cwb48

She didn't stop short- he stopped long.

Chris

+1.

There are 2 entrances into my office park, one is nice and curvy and no one uses it. I take it most of the time.

There is a straight entrance closer to the main intersection. That entrance has a gas station off of it, where no one ever looks coming out of.

So the other day I decide to take the straight entrance. Knowing cars come out of there recklessly as I said, I rode to the left of center as the view is straight to my parking lot. Don't you know here comes someone in a car, on the phone, and pulls wide even into my path. I grabbed a handful of brake and a bit of rear brake and the 250r slowed quickly, straight, with a bit of rear tire squeal. Sometimes you just know something is gonna happen.

[paterick4o8]

all I can say is HE WILL DIE!

..someday.. maybe not from a motorcycle accident, but a true statement!

[BlueTyke]

If he is not 'up' to taking the MSF course because it is not cool the next best is probably to get him onto the track. If anything it gives him a different view of others, perhaps not of his friends.

There are other things also. There are 'hip' books like twist of the throttle if he is interested in perhaps reading...

You can lead a horse to water but unfortunately no matter how hard you try, you simply cannot make it drink.

[Sailariel]

I really appreciate the input from all of you--It was very valuable and a good reality check for me. I think I will take the track route and do track time with him. I will have to check with the track if they will let a person with a permit--not an MC License do track time. This whole thing got me into some soul searching. In effect I did the same thing at age 19, when after riding a 250 NSU for one year, I decided to get a Vincent Rapide because all the people at the MC shop were riding Harleys, Square Fours, Triumphs, and Indians. I rode the Vincent ONE day--It scared the s--t out of me. Immediately sold it, and happily settled in with the NSU. My dad rode a 250 BMW back then. I figure the track thing will probably cost a bit--but, It`only money, and if it saves a life, it is certainly well spent. I feel bad for the parents because their political ideology could very well cost them a son. Like my wife says, "There are no bad kids--just bad parenting" I have to agree. Again, thanks for all the input--especially that of the 21 to 26 set. Don and Sunny, thanks.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by dimeified

This is a very interesting post and i would like to expand... I don't know what your financial situation is, but if you can swing it, why not get him and yourself up for MSF? Sure he'll laugh at the beginner exercises, that is, until he hits the uturn box. Trust me, his confidence will be shaken, and he'll be trying the routine on his zx, and when he realized the bike is too damn big for a first time rider, he'll probably ask for advice. As for you, i don't care how experienced you are, a good old fashioned msf ass kickin' with you and the nephew might be the ticket to a mutual understanding, even if you yourself are above the law. Plus from his perspective, if not for quality time with "uncle safety" (im not laughing at you im laughing at your nephew) isn't "hip" these days, then at least the insurance break is chill.

Bill, I made the MSF course offer. In fact I will be taking the advanced MSF next week. I have been riding on and off for the past 50 years and have logged a lot of miles on many different bikes. I did try out a Honda 600RR recently---a VERY nice bike, flickable, predictable, fantastic ride, and damn fast. I can just picture someone with a tight grip on the right bar hitting a pothole (we have lots around here)--AIRBORNE! Bikes like the 600RR and ZX10R are not unsafe--they just need a certain skill level to ride. I could go out and buy a Fender Stratacaster, but it ain`t going to make me a Jimi Hendrix.