Engine Braking 'Brake Light' Mod (Theory)

[Jiggles]

I like to engine brake, a lot. And I got to thinking, it would be really cool if a brake light came on while I was engine braking. Actually, wouldn't it be awesome if a brake light came on ANY time I was decelerating?

My idea is to wire up a second brake light that comes on any time the bike is slowing down. I figure the simplest way to do this would be a slightly inclined rail with a small metal ball bearing. When you are accelerating or maintaining speed, the ball will be at the bottom of the rail. When you are decelerating, the ball will move to the top of the rail, complete the circuit, and turn on the secondary brake light.

I would love to work on designing this but I simply do not have the time. So I turn to you. Implement this idea or design a better one.

[CZroe]

It would be hard to make it work right when going up or down various inclines.

[justinswidebody]

Your best bet would be for the light to come on when the throttle is in standard possition.

[Scattcatt]

What about a simple pendulum design? As you decelerate, a wire with a hanging weight would move forward and touch a contact plate connecting the circuit? Another simple design idea. I do love the thought though. I personally spend probably about 80% of my braking time engine braking and normally don't even need to touch the brakes until I'm in 1st gear pulling right up to wherever I'm stopping. This would benefit me very much. For now I just flash my brakes a few times as I'm engine braking. I do see JET's point about making this simple design work for inclines, but honestly having it work at all would make me happier than not having it ever work, ya know? That would just mean going up an incline would be no different than going up an incline now for me at least

[choneofakind]

I feel like this engine braking brake light thing would leave your brake light blinking on and off constantly, when you didn't mean it to. You would have to tell it to only light up when the throttle is closed AND a certain deceleration is occuring. So, it would need an accelerometer somewhere on the bike, along with a switch on the throttle

It would be a pretty involved system when the alternative is to push the rear brake pedal just enough to get the brake to light up.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

It would be a pretty involved system when the alternative is to push the rear brake pedal just enough to get the brake to light up.

Didnt you get the memo? Rear brake pedal has its uses. This is one of them.

[WhiteRice]

Originally Posted by setasai

Didnt you get the memo? Rear brake pedal has its uses. This is one of them.

I was gonna say this, but I think the idea is kinda neat

[n4mwd]

I like the concept and I don't always remember to tap the rears whenI'm engine braking.

Maybe use an accelerometer and a small CPU to figure out when the bike is decelerating. Not hard to distinguish true deceleration and an incline with a CPU. There might also be a way to detect deceleration with the engine vacuum.

Anyway, I like the idea of turning both rear amber turn signals on solid during deceleration and leave the middle rear brake light alone. When turning, the blinking side would still blink normally.

With an accelerometer, you could also use it to make a simple alarm system with the same CPU. But if you don't like accelerometers, you could just use the CPU to monitor the engine RPM and the clutch lever switch and determine engine braking from that.

[Gorilla25]

i like the accelerometer idea.

[akima]

I've been thinking about this myself.

Originally Posted by justinswidebody

Your best bet would be for the light to come on when the throttle is in standard possition.

Good idea and welcome to the forum

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I like the concept and I don't always remember to tap the rears whenI'm engine braking.

Maybe use an accelerometer and a small CPU to figure out when the bike is decelerating. Not hard to distinguish true deceleration and an incline with a CPU. There might also be a way to detect deceleration with the engine vacuum.

Anyway, I like the idea of turning both rear amber turn signals on solid during deceleration and leave the middle rear brake light alone. When turning, the blinking side would still blink normally.

With an accelerometer, you could also use it to make a simple alarm system with the same CPU. But if you don't like accelerometers, you could just use the CPU to monitor the engine RPM and the clutch lever switch and determine engine braking from that.

We think alike. This is the solution I came up with too... complete with the duel-function alarm unit. I'm more of a geek than a greaser.

I also thought you could add some gps tracking in there too so you can track your bike if it's stolen.

Slowly progressing towards a bike with AI.

I want to step onto my bike and it say: "Good morning Akima. I recommend you warm me up for longer before riding: there is a low ambient temperature. The engine timing is a little off so I took the liberty of booking you into the local garage later on to day so I can get some tuning" he he

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by akima

I've been thinking about this myself.



Good idea and welcome to the forum



We think alike. This is the solution I came up with too... complete with the duel-function alarm unit. I'm more of a geek than a greaser.

I also thought you could add some gps tracking in there too so you can track your bike if it's stolen.

Slowly progressing towards a bike with AI.

I want to step onto my bike and it say: "Good morning Akima. I recommend you warm me up for longer before riding: there is a low ambient temperature. The engine timing is a little off so I took the liberty of booking you into the local garage later on to day so I can get some tuning" he he

^ oh HECK yes! Sign me up for THAT!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Gorilla25

i like the accelerometer idea.

After I thought about it a while, I was thinking that it would be possible to put everything in a little box in the rear of the bike. It would tap into the brake, tail and turn light wiring. It would get its main power from the tail light wire, the stop light would reset the circuit, and it would use the accelerometer to control the turn signal lights while still allowing actual turn signals to pass through.

Because of the location, it would be hard to make it be an alarm too, but you could still make it work as a brake light flasher.

[Mountain Dew]

Why not just use your brakes? Brakes are a lot cheaper and easier to replace than a transmission.

[Jiggles]

I considered an accelerometer but I figured a rolling ball would be a simpler solution. I was considering an incline of 3-5 degrees in order to eliminate steady speed and very slight deceleration from activating the light. At a 5 degree incline, the ball will be accelerated by gravity at 1.39ft/s^2 toward the bottom of the incline. In order to overcome this, the bike would need to be decelerating at a rate of about 1mi/hr/s. Lol I think that is correct, One Mile Per Hour Per Second. I haven't been in physics for a while so forgive me if that is off. This should be sufficient enough to prevent the brake light from constantly flickering on an off.

[n4mwd]

The rolling ball method doesn't work very well in practice. I had an older car once that used this method to detect a crash and activate the seat belts. It had a little box with a gold plated 1" ball bearing in it. I still have that ball. The problem was that every little bump, the seat belts would lock. Then sometimes they would stay locked and not let me pull them out when I got back into the car.

A brand new accelerometer chip costs about $5-$10. Its not worth fighting with mechanical stuff.

[rockNroll]

I find it odd that someone would do very much engine braking w/out any brake application at all, other than using it to keep speed down during a long hill. I also wonder... I bet this wouldn't be legal in many places.

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

I find it odd that someone would do very much engine braking w/out any brake application at all, other than using it to keep speed down during a long hill. I also wonder... I bet this wouldn't be legal in many places.

Why's that? It's what I've always done lol, I thought it was a normal thing to do this whole time. I mean could it really be that bad for the transmission? I blip as I go down, so it's not like it's jerky or anything, it's very smooth which I figured would mean that it wouldn't have much if any extra wear and tear effects on the transmission. The clutch plates? Sure. I can imagine that they would wear down quicker but that's all I saw. As for legal issues, here in the city they post up signs where engine braking is prohibited, most of these areas are towards the outside of town coming off of free way off ramps. Do I really follow them though? Honestly no... Not normally, cops don't seem to care either so I never really concern myself with those signs.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Why's that? It's what I've always done lol, I thought it was a normal thing to do this whole time. I mean could it really be that bad for the transmission? I blip as I go down, so it's not like it's jerky or anything, it's very smooth which I figured would mean that it wouldn't have much if any extra wear and tear effects on the transmission. The clutch plates? Sure. I can imagine that they would wear down quicker but that's all I saw. As for legal issues, here in the city they post up signs where engine braking is prohibited, most of these areas are towards the outside of town coming off of free way off ramps. Do I really follow them though? Honestly no... Not normally, cops don't seem to care either so I never really concern myself with those signs.

I never posted that it's bad for the transmission nor jerky. You got that out of what I posted?

I think that having brake lights that illuminate w/out brake application would not be legal in many places... not engine braking.

[Scattcatt]

Oh no lol, that was kind of a hybrid response to both you and Jaymie who commented on the transmission. Sorry for being unclear haha

[csmith12]

I have given this a bit of thought. A first I liked the idea but after review, I would have to lean toward rockNroll's response with some additional logic.

If a rider has time to engine brake before a corner, then it would seem to me that the "brake marker" for that corner is to far out. Simple concept on the track. It may be alittle more tricky on the street, but the concept should still be generally the same with the exceptions of double apex curves, traffic and such.

"Pads are cheap, engines are not." - Keith Code

Also from the safety standpoint, the additional brake light action has a greater changes of getting some attention I would agree. For some riders, this would compete with the normal brake light action trigger by the brake lever rendering the mod ineffective.

[akima]

If you don't engine brake before a corner, what do you do? Do you pull in the clutch lever to disgengage the engine, brake, then re-engage the clutch? That seems a lil odd to me and even a little dangerous.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by akima

If you don't engine brake before a corner, what do you do? Do you pull in the clutch lever to disgengage the engine, brake, then re-engage the clutch? That seems a lil odd to me and even a little dangerous.

You just described the basics of blipping..... just need to add a touch of throttle and a downshift to the mix.

[csmith12]

akima,

Sorry my last response was not complete enough. Sure there are going to be curves where a nice roll off (engine brake) where set your entry speed just fine. Difference between track street.

But yes for sure. If your speed is 55mph and you need to slow to 25mph for a curve ahead, then blip down a gear or 2 to set entry speed to your comfort level. A blip will disengage the engine for the moment of downshift, while on the brakes all the while.

Another good example is 45mph to a stop light. How do you shift down and apply brakes? Do you slow from 45mph to near 5mph with just engine or do you also apply brakes?

Think about it..... and how it would affect such a mod to the brake light.

[akima]

Not sure what blipping is.

[akima]

^ Posted that before your post was there. I'm still not really sure what blipping is.

Also: I can't imagine applying what you just wrote to my riding. When I need to slow down, I slow down over a long stretch of road. I don't want to get rear ended. If the only braking I did was when I was changing down gears then I'd have to brake very hard in order to shave off enough speed. The only other alternative I can think of (trying to use the braking method you suggest) is to keep the clutch disengaged and the brakes on for a period after I have changed down gears. That means I will be coasting, which lots of people have told me is bad because it's important to have the engine drive there if you need it.

[Mountain Dew]

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Braking...g_the_throttle

Blipping the throttle is also called "Rev Matching," if you're familiar with that term. You "blip" (or give the throttle a little twist) to match the engine's RPMs to the RPMs of the lower gear.

(If you know this already, forgive me. Some people do it without knowing what it is, like countersteering )

[csmith12]

akima,

We should start another thread on blipping and braking and such.

Back on topic here....
The whole point is that for some riders and especially the more experienced, this mod for the brake light would be in conflict with their normal riding style and braking actions.

It's a timing thing, between when you roll off the gas, vs when you actually pull the brake lever or step on the rear brake. For some of us, there is very little time between the two, hence the brake light would be on anyway.

[n4mwd]

I recently read a post somewhere (I hope it wasn't this thread) where the guy actually removed his rear brake assembly because it weighed too much and was causing him to have accidents.

Using the engine to brake is fine and downshifting is optional. It wont hurt the transmission as long as you use the clutch.

But regarding corners. Its just fine to brake and downshift before the corner, but inside the corner, its easy to cause the bike to lowside if the rear wheel is improperly braked. This is especially true of engine braking where a miscalculation of RPM and gear combination could cause the rear wheel to skid and initiate a lowside.

But outside of corners, I engine brake all the time such as when I am coming up to a red light or stop sign - or when I come up behind a slug on a two lane road. In those cases, I don't apply the real brakes until I am closer to the stopping point. It would be nice to have some way to signal people and tailgaters behind me that I am slowing down.

Something like that could mean the difference between eating pizza by the road and BEING road pizza.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

It would be nice to have some way to signal people and tailgaters behind me that I am slowing down.

Cant you just tap the brakes? I do that every once in a while. Sometimes when i'm stopped at the front I'll tap the brakes just in case to let an approaching car know I'm there.

I'm getting the feeling that all of you are saying almost the same thing. In the end, if you want the brake lights to be on, hit the brakes. Giving people a false sense of braking, often, is a bad idea.

If you were riding/driving and you saw someone's brake lights flash every few seconds because they let off the gas or throttle, wouldnt you be annoyed?

I propose that the brake light be metered instead. If you brake lightly, 0-1 bars, Brake hard, 10+ bars, and anywhere in between. Atleast this way the people behind you might get a sense if you're slamming on your brakes. The idea has some kinks to work out and maybe it is too much info for the general public to understand but I for one would find it useful. Same kind of useful I like how some areas have timers on their yellow lights. Lets me know if i have enough time to run it before it turns red.

[Pyro]

Originally Posted by setasai

Cant you just tap the brakes? I do that every once in a while. Sometimes when i'm stopped at the front I'll tap the brakes just in case to let an approaching car know I'm there.

I'm getting the feeling that all of you are saying almost the same thing. In the end, if you want the brake lights to be on, hit the brakes. Giving people a false sense of braking, often, is a bad idea.

If you were riding/driving and you saw someone's brake lights flash every few seconds because they let off the gas or throttle, wouldnt you be annoyed?

I propose that the brake light be metered instead. If you brake lightly, 0-1 bars, Brake hard, 10+ bars, and anywhere in between. Atleast this way the people behind you might get a sense if you're slamming on your brakes. The idea has some kinks to work out and maybe it is too much info for the general public to understand but I for one would find it useful. Same kind of useful I like how some areas have timers on their yellow lights. Lets me know if i have enough time to run it before it turns red.

I would love to get something like that.

10 bars forward, 10 bars back indicating (+1g to -1g), although it's possibly enough to have 0.5g to -0.5g.

Yellow lights for forward, red for back would still comply with my local legislation.

My main problem is that getting electronic parts is a bit on the expensive side around here :/ I suspect you could do it without getting any CPU in there for much less, but that would make it less flexible and limit your choice of accelerometers.

[blink]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I like to engine brake, a lot. And I got to thinking, it would be really cool if a brake light came on while I was engine braking. Actually, wouldn't it be awesome if a brake light came on ANY time I was decelerating?

My idea is to wire up a second brake light that comes on any time the bike is slowing down. I figure the simplest way to do this would be a slightly inclined rail with a small metal ball bearing. When you are accelerating or maintaining speed, the ball will be at the bottom of the rail. When you are decelerating, the ball will move to the top of the rail, complete the circuit, and turn on the secondary brake light.

I would love to work on designing this but I simply do not have the time. So I turn to you. Implement this idea or design a better one.

that should work if you get a potentiometer in there

[n4mwd]

Actually, my take on the idea was to have deceleration trigger the rear turn signal lights - not the brake light. And it was for the very reason you mentioned which was that you don't want the brake lights coming on unless you are actually hitting the brakes.

People are already used to traffic lights turning yellow (caution) before they turn red. Why not do it on a Ninja too?

An electronic accelerometer and little CPU is the best way to make the thing, but if you can't get those, you can do it like I did for my old car that had the gold ball seat belt actuator. What I did there was to take a microswitch and crimp a lead fishing weight around the lever. Then I mounted it so that sudden deceleration would cause the weight to swing forward and activate the switch and thus the seat belts. It worked really well.

[ceke]

You could do this with a low cost accelerometer or even the accelerometer out of an old used Wii controller, I do use these in my RC Tri and Quad copters, they are sensitive enough. Use a Arduino, PICAXE, Parallax Stamp, or other MCU to convert the accelerometer output to control a superbright LED or LED Array and you wire it to a tail light wire. You should be able to set the g sensitivity to stop any false positives.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by Pyro

I would love to get something like that.

10 bars forward, 10 bars back indicating (+1g to -1g), although it's possibly enough to have 0.5g to -0.5g.

Yellow lights for forward, red for back would still comply with my local legislation.

My main problem is that getting electronic parts is a bit on the expensive side around here :/ I suspect you could do it without getting any CPU in there for much less, but that would make it less flexible and limit your choice of accelerometers.

Actually I was thinking of something a little bit more primative like an analog pressure sensor tied into the brake pedal and lever. Squeeze super hard translates to high pressure equaling 10+ bars.

The yellow light timer was in reference to traffic signals... not to the brakes conversation.

In all honesty, with the general public still having issues with stop signs and running lights, I dont think any addition to the bike will make a difference. Especially if it isnt widely used. I think the red brake light 10bar pressure sensor system is the most complicated thing you could implement without confusing the hell out of other drivers.

I guarantee you the usual grandma or unattentive driver on the road that was going to run you over isnt going to know the difference.

[ceke]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I like to engine brake, a lot. And I got to thinking, it would be really cool if a brake light came on while I was engine braking. Actually, wouldn't it be awesome if a brake light came on ANY time I was decelerating?

My idea is to wire up a second brake light that comes on any time the bike is slowing down. I figure the simplest way to do this would be a slightly inclined rail with a small metal ball bearing. When you are accelerating or maintaining speed, the ball will be at the bottom of the rail. When you are decelerating, the ball will move to the top of the rail, complete the circuit, and turn on the secondary brake light.

I would love to work on designing this but I simply do not have the time. So I turn to you. Implement this idea or design a better one.

I read about these somewhere, kinda pricey though.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ceke

You could do this with a low cost accelerometer or even the accelerometer out of an old used Wii controller, I do use these in my RC Tri and Quad copters, they are sensitive enough. Use a Arduino, PICAXE, Parallax Stamp, or other MCU to convert the accelerometer output to control a superbright LED or LED Array and you wire it to a tail light wire. You should be able to set the g sensitivity to stop any false positives.

I was thinking in terms of an 8 pin PIC and a few lines of assembly code. It shouldn't be too hard to differentiate inclines and bumps from actual deceleration.

Digi-key sells brand new accelerometers for $5-$10. Wii Remotes tend to be to expensive.

Nice helicopter by the way.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by ceke

I read about these somewhere, kinda pricey though.

Here is a quote from their site:

"Mr. Grzebielucha says the light, called Safe Ride, could help stop deadly accidents that happen when drivers don't notice a motorcycle is slowing down or stopped until it's too late. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says about 20 percent of motorcycle accidents happen while riders are stopped or decelerating. Motorcycles stop more quickly and are less visible than other vehicles, which makes them an added risk.

The Safe Ride generally warns drivers one to four seconds before the brake lights would and the strobe makes the motorcycle's presence obvious to drivers coming from other directions. If a motorcyclist eases up on the accelerator, for instance, but doesn't use the brakes, the light will come on until she speeds up again. "

This supports the theory that they would help prevent accidents.

[jdoucet93]

Originally Posted by setasai

Didnt you get the memo? Rear brake pedal has its uses. This is one of them.

This makes me wonder... To activate my rear brake light, I have to push the pedal down a good ways (enough to fully engage the brake). I thought this was strange when I first got my bike but quickly forgot about it. But now I'm very curious again. Could this be a problem, or a potential safety hazard?

[setasai]

Originally Posted by jdoucet93

This makes me wonder... To activate my rear brake light, I have to push the pedal down a good ways (enough to fully engage the brake). I thought this was strange when I first got my bike but quickly forgot about it. But now I'm very curious again. Could this be a problem, or a potential safety hazard?

You can adjust that. On the rear brake pedal. Follow the cables back. There are 2 connections. One is to actuate the rear brakes and the other is to actuate the brake light. Turn the plastic ring to adjust when the light gets actuated. You might need to back the bike up to a wall or ask a friend to help you so you can see the light come on as you are pressing down on the pedal.


Picture taken from somewhere else.

[jdoucet93]

Originally Posted by setasai

You can adjust that. On the rear brake pedal. Follow the cables back. There are 2 connections. One is to actuate the rear brakes and the other is to actuate the brake light. Turn the plastic ring to adjust when the light gets actuated. You might need to back the bike up to a wall or ask a friend to help you so you can see the light come on as you are pressing down on the pedal.


Picture taken from somewhere else.

Awesome! Thanks Brian!