Engine braking

[Alchemist]

So I'm very new to this but in riding around I find myself using engine braking and throttle control to slow down for planned stops (lights, turns, stop signs, etc), far more than either wheel brake. It seems to be successful, and I can retain a normal stopping distance with this, however I don't see this discussed often on here, but I frequently see references to proper braking technique with wheel brakes, so this raises two questions:

1) Am I setting myself up for any kind of trouble by doing this?

2) Is this going to cause increased wear on the engine (on a long term basis)?

[ADoMinGu3z]

just be sure to use it while feathering the brake lever at the very least so that the cars behind u kno ur slowing down

[alex.s]

1) no
2) yes, slightly. but you probably wont really do any damage unless you are being extremely aggressive with your engine braking. if you feather the clutch out and don't send the RPMs above redline you'll probably never see any issues from it.

[Nemesis]

Most of us racers red line and down shift (engine brake) from there more than the average street rider. I've own my bike a little over 5 yrs now and I haven't had any problems with the engine whatsoever. With that said, someone once asked me, "What's more inexpensive to replace? Transmission or brake pads?"

I honestly don't think you'll have any problems by downshifting/engine braking. If anything I encourage it especially in emergency brake situations (a.k.a. panic stops) with front brakes than using both the front & rear brakes.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

"What's more inexpensive to replace? Transmission or brake pads?"

it will blow out your crank journal before it will destroy the transmission. transmissions are easy to fix... $100 for an entire trans with bearings.

[rojoracing53]

What rmp range are we talking here?

6-8k
8-10k
10-12k

Regardless you'll be fine if your shifting smoothly.

[kirk595x]

I do it all the time. Just be careful not to loose traction if your being super aggressive... like I was a few weeks ago and got a lil fishy with my bald rear tire!!

[outasight20]

Make sure to get in the habit of using the brakes effectively in emergency situations though... If you get too used to engine braking, you won't instinctively brake correctly when you need to.

[Nemesis]

Brake check cagers behind you.

[dino74]

When I engine brake on the streets, I still use the front brake slightly so the brake turns on.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by outasight20

If you get too used to engine braking, you won't instinctively brake correctly when you need to.

This is such bull.

12,000 miles of motorcycle riding, and been driving stick ever since I had a temporary permit. I've always used the engine for some amount of slowing down because it's convenient. Never once have I tried to engine brake instead of using the brakes when making a quick stop.

Oh that car's slowing faster than I expected? How about I downshift to 4th...

Engine braking: totally fine. Just make sure to rev match and/or let the clutch out smoothly so there's no unnecessary jerking, and do as you please.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Alchemist

So I'm very new to this but in riding around I find myself using engine braking and throttle control to slow down for planned stops............

1) Am I setting myself up for any kind of trouble by doing this?

2) Is this going to cause increased wear on the engine (on a long term basis)?

Ryan,

You have been riding your bike for less than a week, reason for which we are very happy that you are asking questions here.

1) We can reduce speed slowly or quickly. The engine braking technique is more suitable for the slow reduction, while the brakes (both for you for now) are best for quick speed change. With more miles of practice, you will find your own comfort way of doing this, even mixing both up.

2) Absolutely not, as long as you stay in the same gear until the bike comes to a speed so low that the engine starts jerking up. At that moment, you pull the clutch and apply brakes for a final stop.

Others above have mentioned downshifting.
That is something necessary to learn in order to engine brake for a bigger range of speeds.
Let's say that you are using 5th gear and coming to a stop sign.
You will not get engine braking effect all the way to the stop if you stay in gear 5: the effect will fade away soon.
After some slow down, you will need to switch to 4th gear in order re-activate the braking effect, then to 3th, then to 2nd.

It is a little complicated for trying it now, but after several more hundred of miles you should start practicing it.

This thread will help you:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99060

Also, I recommend the book "Proficient motorcycling", if you have not read it yet.

Reading these threads will not hurt:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134094

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

[outasight20]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

This is such bull.

12,000 miles of motorcycle riding, and been driving stick ever since I had a temporary permit. I've always used the engine for some amount of slowing down because it's convenient. Never once have I tried to engine brake instead of using the brakes when making a quick stop.

Oh that car's slowing faster than I expected? How about I downshift to 4th...

Engine braking: totally fine. Just make sure to rev match and/or let the clutch out smoothly so there's no unnecessary jerking, and do as you please.

12,000 miles huh? you are practically a pro. Sorry I even chimed in on this discussion.

Of course I use engine braking all the time in addition to the brakes. I was just pointing out since this guy is a brand new rider that he should be focusing on learning how to use the brakes well to develop good long term skills. Engine braking is obviously helpful but as a new rider it's not gonna be of much help when he needs to slow down quickly to avoid a collision.

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by ADoMinGu3z

just be sure to use it while feathering the brake lever at the very least so that the cars behind u kno ur slowing down

Yep, I should have mentioned that. I usually touch the rear brake just enough to kick the light on. More out of courtesy - I wouldn't want to be the car behind a bike that just slowed suddenly like that without any warning.

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

What rmp range are we talking here?

6-8k
8-10k
10-12k

Regardless you'll be fine if your shifting smoothly.

Not sure what the "correct" answer is (or if there is a true correct answer), but I usually keep the engine at about 4-7k RPMs. When not accelerating/decelerating, it's usually between 6k and 7k. I haven't been focusing on exact numbers when slowing, but I'm relatively certain it's not redlining. If I had to offer a SWAG... between 6-8k, maybe up to 9 or 10 at the very most.

Originally Posted by kirk595x

I do it all the time. Just be careful not to loose traction if your being super aggressive... like I was a few weeks ago and got a lil fishy with my bald rear tire!!

Interesting - I haven't encountered that yet. Good to know.

Originally Posted by outasight20

Make sure to get in the habit of using the brakes effectively in emergency situations though... If you get too used to engine braking, you won't instinctively brake correctly when you need to.

I'll be the first to admit that proper braking is an area I need to work on. My only experience prior to this was the MSF course where I had a TU250 with a hair-trigger front brake. As much as I learned from the MSF course that was good, that alone probably generated some bad initial habits that I'm now trying to get away from. It's also the reason I'm looking through these threads to gain as much knowledge as I can. Thanks for the advice, though I'm pretty sure once I get a solid handle on it, I can separate the two; the engine braking is a pretty conscious decision planned around a KNOWN stop that I'm going to be making, and the decision is made a couple hundred yards prior to the stop.

Originally Posted by Motofool

Ryan,

You have been riding your bike for less than a week, reason for which we are very happy that you are asking questions here.

1) We can reduce speed slowly or quickly. The engine braking technique is more suitable for the slow reduction, while the brakes (both for you for now) are best for quick speed change. With more miles of practice, you will find your own comfort way of doing this, even mixing both up.

2) Absolutely not, as long as you stay in the same gear until the bike comes to a speed so low that the engine starts jerking up. At that moment, you pull the clutch and apply brakes for a final stop.

Others above have mentioned downshifting.
That is something necessary to learn in order to engine brake for a bigger range of speeds.
Let's say that you are using 5th gear and coming to a stop sign.
You will not get engine braking effect all the way to the stop if you stay in gear 5: the effect will fade away soon.
After some slow down, you will need to switch to 4th gear in order re-activate the braking effect, then to 3th, then to 2nd.

It is a little complicated for trying it now, but after several more hundred of miles you should start practicing it.

This thread will help you:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99060

Also, I recommend the book "Proficient motorcycling", if you have not read it yet.

Reading these threads will not hurt:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134094

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127127

Thanks. I'm kind of in the same boat as Chris. I grew up on a manual transmission car, and used engine braking extensively in conjunction with wheel braking (usually engaging the wheel brakes as normal, and - for lack of a better term - "flaring" the clutch out at each gear while downshifting to allow the engine to assist). While I'm currently driving an automatic, the old habits aren't gone. I've got a pretty good handle on the technique, how it applies and is used. The only thing that's significantly different here is that on the bike, I'm able to stop in roughly the same distance using throttle and clutch without touching the wheel brakes.

I've been using it more and more due to that last fact. I started using it for two reasons (might be right, might be wrong) - it allows me to better track which gear I'm in rather than simply counting clicks, and it gives me more positive control of the bike's speed. Ie, if I need to adjust speed (especially if I need to do so quickly), throttle and clutch are already in use and at a usable speed/RPM, and it's just a matter of rolling back on the throttle.

A couple quick questions, since we're on the subject:

a) This might be more of a tech question, but can the brake lever be adjusted on the Ninja? Reason being that it might not be that difficult with the throttle at rest to cover the brake, but rolled on, my finger(s) aren't likely to touch it, much less cover it effectively. No excuses for bad habits, but that would help things out..

b) outside of simply executing panic stops, are there any other drills I could run to build braking proficiency? I haven't found that open parking lot yet, but if I did, I'd like to maximize the opportunity.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by outasight20

I was just pointing out since this guy is a brand new rider that he should be focusing on learning how to use the brakes well to develop good long term skills.

Yes, but how likely is it to confuse the need to brake and the need to engine brake??? It's solid advice to suggest to do them separately, but to even put those two in the same category to the point of making sure to not confuse them is laughable. No one engine brakes when a deer runs in front of them. There's no SR that involves obsessive downshifting. The issue is typically either applying too much brake too quickly, or just not enough at all. I've never ever seen the issue of confusion over whether to engine brake or brake brake.

As a newb should he practice braking?? YES. should he practice downshifting smoothly? YES. Should he even worry about confusing the two? NO! It's like a car or bicycle or anything with wheels; how do you slow down? use the brakes...

As for me: pro? not by a long shot. Always learning. competent? definitely. Confuse engine vs brakes for slowing? never.

But since we're on the topic, new riders (all riders really) should go to a clean, empty parking lot and work on their hard braking from 25 mph. They should work on using the rear brake at low speeds to make low speed maneuvers more smooth. They should work on using the front brake confidently, even if it feels like the tail is going to fly, or the nose is going to tuck. Learn to trust the brakes. If more riders knew how to use their brakes, there would likely be fewer cases of riders running into things. Same with cars drivers.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Alchemist

.........A couple quick questions, since we're on the subject:

a) This might be more of a tech question, but can the brake lever be adjusted on the Ninja?.....

b) outside of simply executing panic stops, are there any other drills I could run to build braking proficiency?...

a) Yes, but not with the original lever. There are many aftermarket levers that allow you to adjust the distance to the handlebar. Adjusting the angle around the bar may help your hand some with the original lever.

b) http://amgrass.com/

[toddblue68]

Braking and downshifting go hand in hand. Whether it's on the track where the rear end may be dancing after banging down the gears coming off a high speed straight or coming to the traffic light on the street, they serve a similar purpose. That's to be in the right gear when it's time to accelerate again.

On the street, it's useful/fun to use engine braking, it's leisurely, louder, works to help slow you down, and the biggest thing is it helps you downshift your bike. If you just pull in the clutch in 5th gear and roll to a stop, you might not be able to get to first very easily. In your manual cage, no problem....just one swift move takes you from 6th to 1st. Plus, if the light turns green (or the cager on your 6 doesn't slow up) you can actually speed up because you are in a useable gear. Whether it's the stop light or your favorite corner, being in the right gear helps you exit quickly. Isn't this why we like our performance cars in manual? If you are moving quickly, and downshift, it's POSSIBLY to over rev, but for the most par, unless you are speeding up hard at the time, you aren't harming the bike... Your rear-end will break loose before you break anything.

Bonus Off Topic Opinion: I still practice braking in parking lots after 3 decades of riding (and some track time). But, no amount of parking lots are going to prepare you for what your bike is going to do upon grabbing a fist full of front brakes at 80mph on the interstate.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by toddblue68

............Bonus Off Topic Opinion: I still practice braking in parking lots after 3 decades of riding (and some track time). But, no amount of parking lots are going to prepare you for what your bike is going to do upon grabbing a fist full of front brakes at 80mph on the interstate.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Text under video:

"Published on May 24, 2013

video of yours truly riding a canyon road in southern California on my '95 Ducati 900SS CR on a typically beautiful afternoon. cresting a small rise on a short straight i backshifted for the next corner. as i let out the clutch it became apparent i'd missed the downshift and caught a false neutral in-between gears. free-wheeling into the next corner at 80mph without the expected engine braking, i began applying more front brake with the front wheel almost immediately locking up. i released some pressure and it came back inline as the rear brake then promptly locked the rear wheel. somewhere in between the aforementioned braking commotion the engine stalled. a few tense seconds later it all sorted itself out.

p.s. perhaps all the new motorbikes having ABS and traction control (and fuel injection) really isn't such a bad idea?"

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Alchemist

I haven't found that open parking lot yet, but if I did, I'd like to maximize the opportunity.

Look at schools on the weekends and churches during the week. Look for decent pavement quality with very little or no debris. Hard braking drills are really important to work on early in your riding career so that you can have a better chance of having a nice, long riding career. Stopping is the most important skill to master, in my opinion.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Engine braking: totally fine. Just make sure to rev match and/or let the clutch out smoothly so there's no unnecessary jerking, and do as you please.

This. Plus you feel like a MotoGP superstar when you do it right and roll into that next corner.

[Alchemist]

Originally Posted by Motofool

a) Yes, but not with the original lever. There are many aftermarket levers that allow you to adjust the distance to the handlebar. Adjusting the angle around the bar ay help your hand some with the original lever.

b) http://amgrass.com/

Been trying this for a few weeks, just have a few questions re: (a)... when covering the brake, this would (almost by default) mean that your throttle is being controlled by your ring, pinky, and thumb of the right hand while index and middle are extended for brake coverage, correct?

I know a few people who cover solely with their index, but mine doesn't really even fully reach - hence the question about adjusting the lever - so the primary would be my middle, with the index engaging as soon as it starts to move inward.

Just want to make sure I'm doing this the most effective way possible.

[csmith12]

Sounds like you have it figured out Ryan. Just need to tailor the controls to your size and feel.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Alchemist

Been trying this for a few weeks, just have a few questions re: (a)... when covering the brake, this would (almost by default) mean that your throttle is being controlled by your ring, pinky, and thumb of the right hand while index and middle are extended for brake coverage, correct?

You also use the palm of your hand.
However, I did not advise covering the front brake lever.
It is a good technique, but in my opinion it is not for the first times of riding.

For me, it has two purposes:
1) To reduce the reaction time and attention for braking (around half a second).
2) Help modulating the throttle with more finesse.

The problem with #1 is that you must have learned (and made it a habit) to press that lever slowly enough to make the brake application gradual.
New riders are more reactive than pro-active, meaning that their control inputs are on the verge of a panic reaction (no offense, just a natural thing).
When their brain think "emergency brake!!!", that right hand will suddenly squeeze that lever as hard as it can.
The problem with that is that the pressure of the pads will overcome the friction force on the contact patch of the front tire, the front wheel will lock and that new rider will lose steering first and balance immediately later, resulting on a fall.
In order to avoid that, we need to wait for most of the weight to be transferred forward (inertia is acting here), loading that front patch and greatly increasing its friction against the pavement.
If your fingers are over that lever, it is way too easy to lock the front wheel and to fall.
Instead, practice initiating each braking with the rear tire and apply the front only after you feel that the front tire is properly loaded.
In a real emergency situation you will not think, you will do what you are used to do everyday.
Besides, you don't need that extra stress on your hand for now, you have enough skills to develop and things to get used to.

Originally Posted by Alchemist

I know a few people who cover solely with their index, but mine doesn't really even fully reach - hence the question about adjusting the lever - so the primary would be my middle, with the index engaging as soon as it starts to move inward.

Yes, some riders use only the index for bikes that have really powerful brakes, trying to avoid too much pressure being applied to the lever (for the same reasons explained above).
If your fingers are short, installing an adjustable lever is the best solution.
Unfortunately, the distance to the bar of the original lever cannot be adjusted.

Keep practicing carefully, Ryan !!!

[maxgohan]

rev match by bliping the throttle before a downshift and you'll be fine,

now, mastering the blip while grabbing the front brakes is the challenging part

[corralhollowkid]

That downshift blip is so satisfying when you get the timing right

Just like a pro !!!