Loss of Power, Won't go past 7k RPM

[denshidereku]

Hello Ninjette Forums,

Correction... it does go past 7k RPM, but the acceleration is still delayed...

So it's hard to describe really what exactly is the problem, but I know it's not accelerating like it should be.

With the clutch pulled in, when I rev the engine it goes 0 to 12k prefectly fine with no problems.

With the clutch out/in gear, when trying to go from 0 to 12k it will accelerate to 6-6.5k fine, then at around this range it seems to lose some power, and going full throttle it will gradually work its way up past this "decreased power" zone until 8.5k and on where it behaves normally again.

Furthermore, if I maintain 9k RPM there is a slight chugging between what seems like normal horsepower and substantially decreased horsepower, the amount of push it gives fluctuates and the pitch of the engine will fluctuate high and low in concert with this difference in power.

Edit: the video I took is not helpful because wind noise makes it impossible to hear the engine. and not enough detail is shown to see the tachometer...

[dcj13]

Check out the similar-to threads near the bottom of this page.

Have you looked inside your air box and at the air filter? Have rodents put a bunch of crap in there to restrict air flow?

Oh yeah... Welcome, Denshi!

[Skullz]

Get a bottle of Marvel Mystery oil and put a few ounces in the tank and add some gas to mix it up, it may take a tank or two but it can help in cleaning the carbs, tank and plugs, i would also check the air filter and make sure you don't have any blockage on the intake side of things.

[Motofool]

Welcome, denshi !!!

Take a look at this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Troubleshooting

Problems can be many: poor flow of fuel, poor flow of intake air, valves out of adjustment, poor sparks, poor compression.
Start checking the easy things first.

[Ghostt]

Hey why not try this,


People all to often use additives as a "FIX", when in all reality they are most effective as preventive maintenance. I'm sorry but sometimes you have to get get your hands dirty, literally.

Your issue could be cause by many numerous problems, if you course provide some details about the bike, ti will help us, help you.

Things like maintenance? History? Any and all modifications? Etc....

[denshidereku]

So it's hard to describe really what exactly is the problem, but I know it's not accelerating like it should be.

With the clutch pulled in, when I rev the engine it goes 0 to 12k prefectly fine with no problems.

With the clutch out/in gear, when trying to go from 0 to 12k it will accelerate to 6-6.5k fine, then at around this range it seems to lose some power, and going full throttle it will gradually work its way up past this "decreased power" zone until 8.5k and on where it behaves normally again.

Furthermore, if I maintain 9k RPM there is a slight chugging between what seems like normal horsepower and substantially decreased horsepower, the amount of push it gives fluctuates and the pitch of the engine will fluctuate high and low in concert with this difference in power.

I just recorded my ride with a POV camera and will be uploading it shortly to help describe this issue.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Your issue could be cause by many numerous problems, if you course provide some details about the bike, ti will help us, help you.

Things like maintenance? History? Any and all modifications? Etc....

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Your issue could be cause by many numerous problems, if you course provide some details about the bike, ti will help us, help you.

Things like maintenance? History? Any and all modifications? Etc....

History/Backlog:

Bought it used with 1.7k miles on it Summer 2013. Obviously that low mileage with this old model means it's sat in a garage somewhere mostly unused until I bought it...

Drops:

This happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AKfsk5jbnU

A similar drop occurred during the summer but on dirt gravel at 10mph as opposed to 15mph.

Maintenance:

When first drop occured, the sight glass was broken by the rear brake pedal so that got replaced, and at the same time the oil was changed.

Coolant also was leaking until my dad (a Semi-Truck mechanic) took a look at it and IDK what he did but the leak was fixed... if I recall correctly he probably just checked a variety of hose connections to make sure everything that may have been jarred loose was snug.

This was about 4k miles ago and are the most recent oil/coolant changes. Plan on changing the oil soonish (maybe another 2k as it is synthetic).

Rear Brake pads and rear tire were replaced before a 1.6k trip. Replaced the old rear tire with a new stock rear tire because it was cheaper than the other tire I had in mind and I wore the old one down to the point the bead wire was exposed so I needed it replaced asap.

Chain was adjusted last fall (Septemberish) after I did my annual trip to ohio and back (1.6k trip).

---

This problem first occurred on a cold morning (40ish degrees out) when I was in a rush and going full throttle for an extended period of time the bike gradually lost power as though it were losing gas, and continued to only to proceed at 7 to 8k rpm at full throttle.

---

More recently there is just a "weak zone" of torque at that same range, but otherwise it operates smooth enough.

---

I am currently at 12.7k so I'm overdue to do all the 12k servicing and will plan to do so this weekend.

That said, unless my dad did a lot of the 6k service schedule stuff... I am not aware of any other maintenance done to it.

Local motorcycle shop said over the phone I probably just need to clean my carbs.

Thoughts?

[csmith12]

Welcome Denshi, I hope you get your issues worked out.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

History/Backlog:

Bought it used with 1.7k miles on it Summer 2013. Obviously that low mileage with this old model means it's sat in a garage somewhere mostly unused until I bought it...

Drops:

This happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AKfsk5jbnU

A similar drop occurred during the summer but on dirt gravel at 10mph as opposed to 15mph.

Maintenance:

When first drop occured, the sight glass was broken by the rear brake pedal so that got replaced, and at the same time the oil was changed.

Coolant also was leaking until my dad (a Semi-Truck mechanic) took a look at it and IDK what he did but the leak was fixed... if I recall correctly he probably just checked a variety of hose connections to make sure everything that may have been jarred loose was snug.

This was about 4k miles ago and are the most recent oil/coolant changes. Plan on changing the oil soonish (maybe another 2k as it is synthetic).

Rear Brake pads and rear tire were replaced before a 1.6k trip. Replaced the old rear tire with a new stock rear tire because it was cheaper than the other tire I had in mind and I wore the old one down to the point the bead wire was exposed so I needed it replaced asap.

Chain was adjusted last fall (Septemberish) after I did my annual trip to ohio and back (1.6k trip).

---

This problem first occurred on a cold morning (40ish degrees out) when I was in a rush and going full throttle for an extended period of time the bike gradually lost power as though it were losing gas, and continued to only to proceed at 7 to 8k rpm at full throttle.

---

More recently there is just a "weak zone" of torque at that same range, but otherwise it operates smooth enough.

---

I am currently at 12.7k so I'm overdue to do all the 12k servicing and will plan to do so this weekend.

That said, unless my dad did a lot of the 6k service schedule stuff... I am not aware of any other maintenance done to it.

Local motorcycle shop said over the phone I probably just need to clean my carbs.

Thoughts?

Now this is what I'm talking about, thank you

Okay so one can assume it spent no time in storage, it's your daily ride.

If you've never cleaned the carburetors, it's time now, if anything to help establish a solid baseline, and install a fuel filter too. Also check all fuel, and vacuum hoses for leaks, cracks, etc.....

Another thing to check is the fuel itself. Has the problem gone on longer than a single tank, or multiple tanks? Contaminated?

Proper Petcock function?

Since the bike has been dropped, it's possible that the sediment in the fuel bowls as been shook up and got it the circuits, and/or float height was disturbed.

Checked the air filter?

Dropping a bike is rough, especially on the carburetors.

You can try some fuel system additives, like Seafoam, Chevron, Dri-Gas, whatever you like. Also if there is no fuel filter, install one ASAP.

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Okay so one can assume it spent no time in storage, it's your daily ride.

Yes, that is until it gets too cold outside. This past winter (Mid-November to March) it was stored in our garage without use.

Originally Posted by Ghostt

If you've never cleaned the carburetors, it's time now, if anything to help establish a solid baseline, and install a fuel filter too. Also check all fuel, and vacuum hoses for leaks, cracks, etc.....

I was told 2000+ Models already have a fuel filter, albeit small, installed.

Googling price of carb cleaning supplies, it looks like it would cost me about $100 for me to do it myself... Local dealer quoted me at $200 to do it, would it plausibly be more effective to just have the local dealer shop do it for me?

And while they're at it adjust my valves for me (one of the more complicated things on the 12k service list there).

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Another thing to check is the fuel itself. Has the problem gone on longer than a single tank, or multiple tanks? Contaminated?

Proper Petcock function?

I continued using it like this for a half-month before cold weather got me to stop. Petcock functions as expected (OFF = No gas, ON = Gas, and Reserve for when I forget to fill up on time), and during that half-month went through probably 2-tanks or so of gas.

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Since the bike has been dropped, it's possible that the sediment in the fuel bowls as been shook up and got it the circuits, and/or float height was disturbed.

Dropping a bike is rough, especially on the carburetors.

Drop 1: Winter 2013, Drop 2: Summer 2014

This started Early November 2014, which makes it seem unlikely to have correlation to the drops.

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Checked the air filter?

You can try some fuel system additives, like Seafoam, Chevron, Dri-Gas, whatever you like. Also if there is no fuel filter, install one ASAP.

Haven't checked air filter yet, and 2000+ models supposedly come with a fuel filter already...

[Ghostt]

Fuel filter, If so, you might want to take a look at it, might need replacing

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detai...9019-1092.html




Odds are the carburetors could use a cleaning/rebuild. If your comfortable cleaning them yourself, and have the proper equipment, then by all means do it.

If not let a professional do it, or you could stop by my place and I'll do it for you, just supply the parts. One must remember your messing with gasoline, so take caution.


SIDENOTE: in your video clip, were you riding 2up?

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

Googling price of carb cleaning supplies, it looks like it would cost me about $100 for me to do it myself... Local dealer quoted me at $200 to do it, would it plausibly be more effective to just have the local dealer shop do it for me?

Not sure where you got this figure. All you need to clean the carbs is a can of Berrymans Chem Dip, which is available at auto parts stores and WalMart for around $16-18. Do not put anything plastic or rubber in the Chem Dip as it will destroy it. Let the metal carb parts soak in it for at least 48 hours. Then rinse well with water and blow out every orifice in the carb with compressed air. One can will clean many carbs before it gets ctoo contaminated.

Often nothing needs to be replaced, but you might need new float valves or gaskets. I polish the float seats by dipping a Q-tip in metal polish and twirling it in the seat until it is clean and bright. Do this before soaking the carb.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

Yes, that is until it gets too cold outside. This past winter (Mid-November to March) it was stored in our garage without use.

Did you fill the tank to the top and add stabilizer? If not, the fuel is the first place I would look.

If the tank hasn't been full there's a good chance condensation has formed. Completely draining the tank and floatbowls (look at the fuel that comes out) and refilling is the best solution.

What gas are you using? Because you are in WI, you may be able to get ethanol-free 87 octane at Cenex stations. Gas without ethanol is always a good idea if you can get it. The Ninja will make the most power and get the best economy on ethanol-free 87.

Check under the seat for anything that may be blocking the intake snorkel. Look to make sure no critters moved in and made a home in the airbox over the winter also.

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

SIDENOTE: in your video clip, were you riding 2up?

Yes, and its also partially because of the extra weight in the back that I was not able to recover from the rear-wheel skid. (I think the passenger jumped off at the wrong moment is why).

But yeah... not exactly our most intelligent moment, icy roads going 2up to a movie theatre... In our defense though, that drop happened 500 ft from where I was going to drop him off... we we're on the home stretch when it got dropped.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

Yes, and its also partially because of the extra weight in the back that I was not able to recover from the rear-wheel skid. (I think the passenger jumped off at the wrong moment is why).

But yeah... not exactly our most intelligent moment, icy roads going 2up to a movie theatre... In our defense though, that drop happened 500 ft from where I was going to drop him off... we we're on the home stretch when it got dropped.

Okay we need to talk about A.T.G.A.T.T., read this:

I feel the need to share this posting from the EX-500.COM that happened back in 2009, but it's a timeless story,


the lessons from my mistake (somewhat graphic, be careful)

It's a simple enough story, that went totally wrong, by a fellow forum member by the name of mgbenny*

Here is his first post in the long thread, which has over 30,000 views.

I consider MGBENNY, my close forum friend, and that is why I'm sharing this, along with my other personal friend Britney "QUEEN B" Morrow's story and website (www.rockthegear.org) on all my post as part of my signature.

And why I'm such a strong supporter of her cause, and A.T.G.A.T.T.

If this post saves just one person, it is worth it, and makes one think before riding with no gear.

[denshidereku]

I was ATGATT, and strongly urged the passenger to wear more protective gear, but he insisted not to.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

I was ATGATT, and strongly urged the passenger to wear more protective gear, but he insisted not to.

Then he doesn't ride, after all your responsible for your passenger, good or bad, medical, financial, etc......

Just think if he would have gotten injured?? Or worse???

Who do you think is going to pay for it???
And I've heard the famous lie, it's my friend, they would NEVER do that.

Just something to think about.

[Ghostt]

One thing that owners forget is the safety of their passenger, even more important than your own I feel.

Hence I have a few sets of gear for them as well. I feel very strongly about keeping myself and my passenger safe. Just go to www.rockthegear.org and read my friend's story, Britney"QUEEN B" Morrow, she was the passenger.

Case and point, a few years ago I got a call from my daughter, and she found herself stranded, I detoured to her, as I was on my bike. When I got to her, obviously she had no gear. Waiting for someone else to come and pick her up wasn't an option(long story)*

So I proceeded to give her all my gear, helmet, jacket, overpants, gloves. I know what your gonna say, but it was my only daughter, she was in trouble, and I had no other options, so I made sure if anything did happen, at least she would be safe, I couldn't live with myself any other way. I just took it really slow and easy, drove like an old lady going to church on Sunday morning, and all ended well.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

One thing that owners forget is the safety of their passenger, even more important that your own I feel, hence I have a few set of gear for them as well. I feel very strongly about keeping myself and my passenger safe. Just go to www.rockthegear.org and read my friend's story, she was the passenger.

Case and point, a few years ago I got a call from my daughter, and she found herself stranded, I detoured to her, I was on my bike. When I got to her, obviously she had had, no gear. Waiting for someone else to come and pick her up wasn't an option(long story)

So I proceeded to give her all my gear, helmet, jacket, overpants, gloves. I know what your gonna say, but it was my only daughter, she was in trouble, and I had no other options, so I made sure if anything did happen, at least she would be safe, I couldn't live with myself any other way. I just took it really slow and easy, drove like an old lady going to church on Sunday morning, and all was well.

so
atgaatt

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Then he doesn't ride, after all your responsible for your passenger, good or bad, medical, financial, etc......

Just think if he would have gotten injured?? Or worse???

Who do you think is going to pay for it???

Just something to think about.

Point taken...

Originally Posted by Ghostt

And I've heard the famous lie, it's my friend, they would NEVER do that.

I'm young and all, but not this naive... I can easily see best friends suing each other over something life-changing like a motorcycle accident.

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Not sure where you got this figure.

You're right, the giant bucket of chem dip is like $20 on amazon...

Although Next Dimension Carb Spray (recommended on some other site) is looking to be like $80 on Amazon...

I figured I would need both so total of $100.

As far as other tools though, again my dad's a semi-truck mechanic foreman thing... and has just about every automotive tool you can imagine in his garage so I'll use those.

For the moment, since Marvel Mystery Oil is $4 and also incredibly easy to use I'm going to try it for a couple tanks and see how that goes.

[jkv45]

You didn't answer my question about the gas.

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Did you fill the tank to the top and add stabilizer? If not, the fuel is the first place I would look.

If the tank hasn't been full there's a good chance condensation has formed. Completely draining the tank and floatbowls (look at the fuel that comes out) and refilling is the best solution.

What gas are you using? Because you are in WI, you may be able to get ethanol-free 87 octane at Cenex stations. Gas without ethanol is always a good idea if you can get it. The Ninja will make the most power and get the best economy on ethanol-free 87.

Check under the seat for anything that may be blocking the intake snorkel. Look to make sure no critters moved in and made a home in the airbox over the winter also.

When I went to fill-up just now, I put in about 3.5 gallons so it's been nearly empty the entire winter, although the issue started before storing it for winter so... I again don't see how that could be a factor.

For the moment though, I'm going to try the mystery oil mix in my gas for a couple of tanks and see how this changes things.

During the 1 hour ride I had just now, it seems to kinda help, but it's not completely resolved... That said, I wouldn't expect adding this cleaner to gas would fix it immediately either because it is a passive means of cleaning...

Checking underneath the seat I did not notice anything that could be blocking anything or odd animal insertions.

[Ghostt]

Bad batch of gas+storage=worse gas.

Try the additive for a few tanks, all else fails your cleaning the carburetors.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

When I went to fill-up just now, I put in about 3.5 gallons so it's been nearly empty the entire winter, although the issue started before storing it for winter so... I again don't see how that could be a factor.

For the moment though, I'm going to try the mystery oil mix in my gas for a couple of tanks and see how this changes things.

It possible you got some bad gas before storing, and as Ghostt mentioned - it ain't any better now. Even if the gas was good then, it sounds like you didn't use stabilizer - so it's bad now. Because the tank was low there's also a good chance that condensation has formed.

The best thing to do is completely drain the tank and floatbowls, but it's up to you.

Are you running ethanol-free? You should be able to find it. It lasts longer than gas with ethanol and is generally a better idea.

I can't say I've heard of using marvel Mystery Oil in the gas. My recommendation would be to add 1oz per gal or Techron Concentrate to a fresh tank of gas (after draining completely).

Adding new fuel to possible bad fuel won't tell you anything or solve problems.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by jkv45

It possible you got some bad gas before storing, and as Ghostt mentioned - it ain't any better now. Even if the gas was good then, it sounds like you didn't use stabilizer - so it's bad now. Because the tank was low there's also a good chance that condensation has formed.

The best thing to do is completely drain the tank and floatbowls, but it's up to you.

Are you running ethanol-free? You should be able to find it. It lasts longer than gas with ethanol and is generally a better idea.

I can't say I've heard of using marvel Mystery Oil in the gas. My recommendation would be to add 1oz per gal or Techron Concentrate to a fresh tank of gas (after draining completely).

Adding new fuel to possible bad fuel won't tell you anything or solve problems.

[denshidereku]

Before I fueled up, I put in 3.5ish oz (its probably closer to 4, it wasn't an exact measurement).

For the duration of the ride from my house to the gas station (3 miles?), does mean it is an exceedingly high concentration of the mystery oil in the gas, afterwards adding the 3.5 gal of gas though would have diluted it and bring things to a more acceptable level, that said it's still probably slightly over your recommendation.

I will look into draining the tank and floatbowls this weekend... To be honest though, depending on how lazy I'm feeling this weekend, it might or might not be done though.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

You're right, the giant bucket of chem dip is like $20 on amazon...

Although Next Dimension Carb Spray (recommended on some other site) is looking to be like $80 on Amazon...

I figured I would need both so total of $100.

I'm not familiar with that particular carb spray, but my general opinion on sprays is you can save your money by peeing on the carbs instead. Both are about equally effective. Sprays just aren't as aggressive as Chem Dip and, being sprays, they are only in contact with the deposits gumming up the carbs for a short time. The longer the carbs soak in Chem Dip, the better.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

I'm not familiar with that particular carb spray, but my general opinion on sprays is you can save your money by peeing on the carbs instead. Both are about equally effective. Sprays just aren't as aggressive as Chem Dip and, being sprays, they are only in contact with the deposits gumming up the carbs for a short time. The longer the carbs soak in Chem Dip, the better.

Agreed, they need a soak for sure, ultrasonic cleaner, or Chem-Dip.

Verify that ALL circuits are clear with an air compressor, no canned air.

Just when using Chem-Dip use caution due to there are O-rings between the carburetors, and of course the plastic fuel inlet, and other parts between the carburetors.

Part# 92005A and 92005B


Be sure to completely disassemble, don't forget the choke assemblies as well, Part # 16016


You could split the carburetors, but I don't recommend that for the beginner, and even the average person.

[flitecontrol]

And the rubber tipped float valves, etc., too. I don't recommend that others do this because Chem Dip is flammable and there is potential for fire, but I use Chem Dip in my ultrasonic cleaner. Gets the carbs really clean in a hurry.

[jkv45]

Use Techron Concentrate or Seafoam, (1oz per gal) as a fuel system cleaner.

[denshidereku]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Agreed, they need a soak for sure, ultrasonic cleaner, or Chem-Dip.

Verify that ALL circuits are clear with an air compressor, no canned air.

Just when using Chem-Dip use caution due to there are O-rings between the carburetors, and of course the plastic fuel inlet, and other parts between the carburetors.

Be sure to completely disassemble, don't forget the choke assemblies as well,

You could split the carburetors, but I don't recommend that for the beginner, and even the average person.

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

And the rubber tipped float valves, etc., too. I don't recommend that others do this because Chem Dip is flammable and there is potential for fire, but I use Chem Dip in my ultrasonic cleaner. Gets the carbs really clean in a hurry.

**** it... I'll just pay the local dealer to perform the 12k mile service tune-up and carb clean for me ($300)...

Don't really want spontaneous fires from chem dip, and not particularly motivated to learn how to be more careful, and my boss who's also a motorcycle guy said that it's probably an issue that's above my level of comprehension to be able to fix.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

**** it... I'll just pay the local dealer to perform the 12k mile service tune-up and carb clean for me ($300)...

Don't really want spontaneous fires from chem dip, and not particularly motivated to learn how to be more careful, and my boss who's also a motorcycle guy said that it's probably an issue that's above my level of comprehension to be able to fix.

Chem Dip does not cause "spontaneous fires". It is perfectly safe to use as directed, which is to soak the metal parts in internal basket that comes in the can of Chem Dip. I found that I can use it in a sonic cleaner, which produces heat, if used outside, away from combustibles, and monitored carefully. I don't recommend that others use it in their sonic cleaners.

[alex.s]

sounds like water in the tank

[denshidereku]

The major issue ended up being a bad chain... I knew the chain was not ideal, but didn't think it was what was causing this specific issue.

After the tune-up and chain replacement problem seems to have disappeared.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by denshidereku

The major issue ended up being a bad chain... I knew the chain was not ideal, but didn't think it was what was causing this specific issue.

After the tune-up and chain replacement problem seems to have disappeared.

[denshidereku]

Is that "WTF this guy is an idiot"

or

"WTF, if the symptoms you described are correct, I have no idea how the chain is involved in this"

For the former: Yeah probably.

For the latter: When I picked up the bike, the shop technician stated that "When I test rode it, I did not feel the lack of power you described, although a 250cc bike also doesn't necessarily have that much power to begin with so it's also harder to feel whatsoever. It seems much more likely that the power loss you were describing was a consequence of the jerkiness of the bike as a result of there being tight and loose spots on the chain."

[Ghostt]

The chain was the cause.

I would never insult a forum member.

I'm just glad that you bike is fixed, and your happy