Weird noise when shifting to first gear

[Animoto]

I bought a 2012 ninja with 3k miles last week, dirty carbs had me busy all weekend. So the bike runs great after cleaning it and i begin to practice on 1 lane roads around my neighborhood. After a few days im out of gas, so i decide I'm ready to fill it up. The bike has not done anything i considered weird to this point.

On the way back home a red light comes on and i pull the clutch, then shift from 4th, 3rd, 2nd, I'm still moving at a decent speed since I'm breaking slowly. As i try to shift to first gear, i hear a weird sound. Like if the chain was breaking (something was rattling and stopped me from shifting) , which kinda scared me. Eventually i slowed down enough and then it shifted fine. It happened again at another light, i couldn't shift to first while holding the clutch and moving quickly, until i was about to stop.

Is this normal, or a cause for concern? or I'm i being a noob and not doing proper shifting?

[csmith12]

Sounds normal, just slow down a bit more before trying to downshift to 1st. It's really low geared.

[jkv45]

Sounds like you didn't have it fully engaged into 1st.

Try not to go down into 1st gear until you are stopped.

What is the idle speed when it's warm? Did you remove the caps on the idle mixture screws when you had the carbs off?

[Animoto]

ok ill just try to shift down at lower speeds. idle is ~12-14 it vibrates so i don't know the exact number, and i didn't touch anything besides the jets when cleaning the carbs. I'm fairly new to riding so i didn't want to tamper with more more than i had to.

[alex.s]

it goes into first best at around 2mph

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Animoto

~12-14 it vibrates so i don't know the exact number,

that means you need to sync your carbs

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

that means you need to sync your carbs

Yep, just had to do this on another kawi just the other day.

[Animoto]

oh man, that sucks. Maybe in the future, id really hate to do carb work again soon. but I'll definitely look into it, and get it done when i have a chance.

Thanx for the help, I'm planning to do more road practice and i was well over 2 mph. So that's good to know.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Animoto

i was well over 2 mph. So that's good to know.

Don't make that 2mph a "hard" number to shift at, that is not what Alex means. In time, you will just "feel" when your going slow enough to downshift to first. In general though, it's about "walking - brisk walking" speed.

[Animoto]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Don't make that 2mph a "hard" number to shift at, that is not what Alex means. In time, you will just "feel" when your going slow enough to downshift to first. In general though, it's about "walking - brisk walking" speed.

Thanx ill keep that in mind. I rode some more and it hasn't happened anymore. I slowed down quite a bit before fully down shifting.

[DmbShn41]

When slowing down and downshifting, its best to keep the bike in the gear that is representative of the speed you are traveling. If you're heading for a light and know you have to stop, downshift slowly, and wait till you hit the light at a full stop before you go to 1st.

I do this as I consider it a safety factor. If I'm slowing down, and keep the gear relative to the speed, and for whatever reason I have to bail out of the lane and quickly maneuver elsewhere, at least I'm in the correct gear so that I can do so quickly, without having to shift around to find the right gear.

Things like this will come to you in time with riding. As you learn some more, stay away from other cars/riders. Get comfortable with yourself on the bike before you add in other people.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by Animoto

oh man, that sucks. Maybe in the future, id really hate to do carb work again soon. but I'll definitely look into it, and get it done when i have a chance.

Thanx for the help, I'm planning to do more road practice and i was well over 2 mph. So that's good to know.

Sync-ing is just tank off gauges and one screw. I can do it in ten minutes without rushing the job. It will also (if you have it) get rid of that idle knock that sounds like a big end, but isn't
Anything that does not involve the two sucky Ninja jobs (carb refitting and valve clearances)* is good.

* I have a pregen, hopefully the new models are better designed for those two jobs.

[kennetht]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Don't make that 2mph a "hard" number to shift at, that is not what Alex means. In time, you will just "feel" when your going slow enough to downshift to first. In general though, it's about "walking - brisk walking" speed.

Cant you shift into first at anytime as long as you have the clutch fully disengaged? Why do you have to make sure you are going that slow?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by kennetht

Cant you shift into first at anytime as long as you have the clutch fully disengaged? Why do you have to make sure you are going that slow?

Sure you can, but ask yourself if you should? If you're coming up on a red light going 45mph in first gear with the clutch pulled in and it turns green... now you have to fiddle with getting yourself back in a more appropriate gear to continue along your way, not to mention the impatient cagers behind you.

For me, being in a gear that matches my speed is more than just a technique, it's a safety issue, it's a control issue, eliminates a lot of guesswork, generally makes riding less "rushed" & "busy" and the flow is more enjoyable.

I will leave ya with 2 questions;
What would happen if your going 45mph in 1st and dump the clutch (hand slip off or whatever)?
Why do they say, "when in doubt, upshift"?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by kennetht

Cant you shift into first at anytime as long as you have the clutch fully disengaged? Why do you have to make sure you are going that slow?

Take it down 1 gear at a time as you slow. As Chris noted, you don't want to be moving along at 45 with the clutch in and the trans in 1st gear - you aren't prepared to react to a situation, and if you let the clutch out it could lock the tire and create more problems. Plus it's not good for the trans, clutch, etc.

I typically don't like to drop into 1st until I'm almost stopped, but at a very low speed it's fine. You will feel a difference when you get into 1st while you are rolling as compared to when you downshift into other gears.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by kennetht

Cant you shift into first at anytime as long as you have the clutch fully disengaged? Why do you have to make sure you are going that slow?

no.

it is a 'feature' of the way the transmission works. it is what's sometimes called a "dog box" transmission. when you "put it in gear", you are sliding one gear INTO another gear, not onto. all the gears are always engaged on their faces but they slide into each other in order to engage. they have 3 teeth, or "dogs" that slide into paired "trenches" on the other gear. if the difference in speed is too great, instead of sliding in and engaging, they just skim along the surface making a great weedwacker grinding noise. doing this rounds the edge of the dog and the trench making it happen more and more. the gearbox needs to be at the right speed to engage correctly into the gear for that speed.


even on a standard car-style syncro transmission, trying to stick it into first before you're at the right speed is just wearing out your syncro cups unnecessarily. worst case, you're going top speed in a car and try to use the syncro to get into first... you will overrev the first gear bearing and if you keep trying blow the bearing eventually

[Ninjinsky]

http://ninja250.kingston.net/speed.html
Try this calculator, you will see 14,000 rpm is 37 mph in first
If you managed to engage first at 50 dropping the clutch will spin the engine at 20,000 rpm which would blow it for sure

[dooby]

There's no possibility the clutch cable is poorly adjusted? Are you sure when the clutch lever is pulled in at the handlebar it is fully disengaging the clutch?

I ask because after some miles of ownership I found it hard to get into 1st where I hadn't before. It appears the clutch cable had stretched over time and I was no longer fully disengaging the clutch.

Maybe you could check that with the engine off but in 1st you can't push the bike, then see whether it is as easy to push with the clutch fully in as it is in neutral?

HTH, Pete

[kennetht]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Sure you can, but ask yourself if you should? If you're coming up on a red light going 45mph in first gear with the clutch pulled in and it turns green... now you have to fiddle with getting yourself back in a more appropriate gear to continue along your way, not to mention the impatient cagers behind you.

For me, being in a gear that matches my speed is more than just a technique, it's a safety issue, it's a control issue, eliminates a lot of guesswork, generally makes riding less "rushed" & "busy" and the flow is more enjoyable.

I will leave ya with 2 questions;
What would happen if your going 45mph in 1st and dump the clutch (hand slip off or whatever)?
Why do they say, "when in doubt, upshift"?

very true, i see your point. well thats one thing i have been doing incorrectly from a safety standpoint. i usually always downshift straight to first when i know i am going to be coming to a stop. im going to have to work on changing that habit.

[cbinker]

shifting into first is a pain in the ass if you are above 10mph.

[Ninjinsky]

Normally you only engage first while stationary. and only go down the box as far as second (or even third) when coming to a stop.
As a beginner it is easy to assume that slowing to a stop is the simple reversal of pulling away up through all the gears but it isn't.
Accelerating, the gears are about delivering the power within the engines upper and lower limits
Decelerating, the gears multiply the engine braking more as you come down. The highest engine braking is in first when you in fact only need a gentle touch of brakes, the engine braking effect in first is total overkill and gives a very jerky and clumsy response.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by dooby

There's no possibility the clutch cable is poorly adjusted? Are you sure when the clutch lever is pulled in at the handlebar it is fully disengaging the clutch?

I ask because after some miles of ownership I found it hard to get into 1st where I hadn't before. It appears the clutch cable had stretched over time and I was no longer fully disengaging the clutch.

Maybe you could check that with the engine off but in 1st you can't push the bike, then see whether it is as easy to push with the clutch fully in as it is in neutral?

HTH, Pete

clutch cables don't stretch. they break and fray. if it is "stretching" it means it's time to replace the cable because it has internal breaks.

[dooby]

Originally Posted by alex.s

clutch cables don't stretch. they break and fray. if it is "stretching" it means it's time to replace the cable because it has internal breaks.

Did not know that. Thanks - there is a spare new cable sitting ready, perhaps it will go on this weekend along with some other maintenance I have planned.

Cheers, Pete

[Animoto]

Originally Posted by alex.s

no.

if the difference in speed is too great, instead of sliding in and engaging, they just skim along the surface making a great weedwacker grinding noise. doing this rounds the edge of the dog and the trench making it happen more and more. the gearbox needs to be at the right speed to engage correctly into the gear for that speed.
keep trying blow the bearing eventually

That definitely the noise i was talking about but it cured itself after i began to shift when nearly stopped.

Two new things showed up for me now. False neutrals, which i figured out today only happens in first gear if i past 6 or 7k rpm and let go of the throttle. fixes for me was ether keep the foot on the shift lever if staying in first, or shift up.

And i learned that i really need to practice turning, i noticed i have no idea how far to down shift before turning if im in a high gear, trying to figure that out now.

[Animoto]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Normally you only engage first while stationary. and only go down the box as far as second (or even third) when coming to a stop.
As a beginner it is easy to assume that slowing to a stop is the simple reversal of pulling away up through all the gears but it isn't.
Accelerating, the gears are about delivering the power within the engines upper and lower limits
Decelerating, the gears multiply the engine braking more as you come down. The highest engine braking is in first when you in fact only need a gentle touch of brakes, the engine braking effect in first is total overkill and gives a very jerky and clumsy response.

Thanks for the tip, i been having some clumsy breaking every now and then. i basically slowed down with clutch in and when i was close to a stop, quickly downshifted. Didn't realize the gears affect breaking power. good to know.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Animoto

Two new things showed up for me now. False neutrals, which i figured out today only happens in first gear if i past 6 or 7k rpm and let go of the throttle. fixes for me was ether keep the foot on the shift lever if staying in first, or shift up.

That's a problem.

I would check and lube all parts of the shift linkage and make sure it's moving freely. It's possible the shifter is not returning properly after shifting and causing these issues.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Animoto

And i learned that i really need to practice turning, i noticed i have no idea how far to down shift before turning if im in a high gear, trying to figure that out now.

down shift one gear at a time while you are slowing down. do not pull the clutch in and go down multiple gears.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by alex.s

down shift one gear at a time while you are slowing down. do not pull the clutch in and go down multiple gears.

But do use the clutch for each of the changes ( just to clear the ambiguity of wording there )

If you have a local riding school ask them about a couple of lessons to build your riding skills. Having experienced professionals teach you the ropes will be worth 100 posts here

[Animoto]

Originally Posted by jkv45

That's a problem.

I would check and lube all parts of the shift linkage and make sure it's moving freely. It's possible the shifter is not returning properly after shifting and causing these issues.

oh wow, i thought it was normal. I read a bunch of things on false neutrals and figured is just a bike thing. Thanx ill try to do that

Originally Posted by alex.s

down shift one gear at a time while you are slowing down. do not pull the clutch in and go down multiple gears.

oh, that makes sense. Ill practice doing that today.

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

But do use the clutch for each of the changes ( just to clear the ambiguity of wording there )

If you have a local riding school ask them about a couple of lessons to build your riding skills. Having experienced professionals teach you the ropes will be worth 100 posts here

Ill look into it, they have intermediate training courses around here, but ill be honest, this forum has helped me with many of my problems. Having fellow riders advise a noob is priceless.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

That's a problem.

I would check and lube all parts of the shift linkage and make sure it's moving freely. It's possible the shifter is not returning properly after shifting and causing these issues.

false neutral is caused by not going fully into the gear and so the dogs are only partially engaged when the shift linkage lets go and so it slips out into between two gears. this has nothing to do with the linkage not returning to home. it has to do with not fully depressing the shift pedal (which can be done for a variety of reasons) but basically if you just push the shift pedal and hold the shift pedal extended into the "new gear" position for a second or two, and then letting the shift pedal return to its normal position, it shouldn't happen. if you are wide open and shifting fast off/on the gas and you get back on the gas too fast it can also get stuck half way. solution is to not blip-off so fast for that.