Questions about braking and the clutch

[dcx4610]

I've been riding for awhile now but I'm always thinking of ways to get better or constantly wondering if I'm doing something "wrong" since other than the MSF, I'm self-taught.

What I'm curious about is braking at higher speeds or when coming in for a corner.

I'm almost certain in the MSF that they said you should ALWAYS pull in the clutch when braking but I've read otherwise. Because of this, I have a bad habit of pulling in the clutch and coasting through turns with it pulled in.

So let's say I'm in 5th gear and need to slow down a little bit. Should I pull in the clutch, brake a bit and downshift if needed to 4th gear or simply just brake without the clutch and stay in 5th gear?

For coming up on a slow turn, should I quickly get in the right gear first, then brake without the clutch and then turn?

[rasta]

For the most part, the MSF course only operates in 1st or 2nd gear. So, I'm thinking when they said you "always" pull the clutch when breaking, they must have been talking about doing so when you're in 1st gear.

The only time I downshift before a turn is if I'm already at low revs before I start slowing down before the turn

[csmith12]

We just covered this same question.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=142193

[rojoracing53]

Brake usage and clutch usage are two totally separate things but the time you use each one can often overlap. So I never pull the clutch "because" I'm braking, I pull the clutch because I need to down shift because my RPMs are dropping as a result of me currently braking.

The only time you "have" to use both at the same time is if your coming to a stop.

[adouglas]

^this.

You should NOT coast through corners with the clutch pulled in. Get thee a copy of Twist of the Wrist II, both book and video.

Rule 1 (say this ten thousand times): Once the throttle is cracked open it is rolled on smoothly and continuously through the turn.

You crack the throttle open as early as possible. No later than the apex for sure.

MSF does teach this in their own way: Slow, Look, Press, Roll.

ROLL ON THE THROTTLE. That doesn't mean coast through the turn and then gas it. It means press, tip in and power through the corner.

The bike will feel MUCH more stable if you do this.

Your corner entry should feel slow... if you're a noob, it will be slow in fact. If you're experienced, a higher speed will feel slow. The idea is that you don't want to charge the corner. Slow in, fast out.... accelerate through the turn.

It feels fantastic when you do it right.

Experienced riders spend very little time with the clutch pulled in. Only just enough to shift gears, and the quicker that happens the better. And, of course, when rolling to a stop to prevent the engine from stalling.

We're talking like fractions of a second, not pull in, hold, rev, shift, let out slowly... more like grabblipshiftrelease.

As you read this hold your left hand out, make a fist, hold it and release. That's probably about how fast you work the clutch now.

Now hold your left hand out and pretend you're trying to grab a fly, then immediately let it go. That's what fast action on the clutch feels like. Much quicker... almost like a twitch.

When shifting you also do not need to pull the clutch all the way in. Just enough to let the pressure off the plates. Try it...

And then there's the pure awesomeness of clutchless upshifting.... wheeeee!

[CC Cowboy]

Trackday with instruction would make you a much safer, faster, more comfortable rider.

[ChickenRun]

Coasting through corners is a BAD idea. I used to do the same thing when I first got my bike, and it was the reason for my first accident. I tried to coast through the corner, realized I wasn't going fast enough, tried to apply throttle but because I had (unknowingly) over-downshifted into first, the bike did a harsh slow down causing me to slide out into the other lane, right in front of a stopped car waiting for a light. I'm glad the light wasn't green otherwise I might have been part of the pavement. So learn to throttle blip, man. It might save your life.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by adouglas

We're talking like fractions of a second, not pull in, hold, rev, shift, let out slowly... more like grabblipshiftrelease.

I'm going to use this from now on just as soon as I figure out the proper way to pronounce it

[adouglas]

Saying it takes too long. Just pull the trigger.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Trackday with instruction would make you a much safer, faster, more comfortable rider.

When you feel your ready, take a track day that offers a classroom/school component. A track day is a "learning" experience.

[allanoue]

Turn in like a lamb out like a lion

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I've been riding for awhile now but I'm always thinking of ways to get better or constantly wondering if I'm doing something "wrong" since other than the MSF, I'm self-taught.

What I'm curious about is braking at higher speeds or when coming in for a corner.

I'm almost certain in the MSF that they said you should ALWAYS pull in the clutch when braking but I've read otherwise. Because of this, I have a bad habit of pulling in the clutch and coasting through turns with it pulled in.

So let's say I'm in 5th gear and need to slow down a little bit. Should I pull in the clutch, brake a bit and downshift if needed to 4th gear or simply just brake without the clutch and stay in 5th gear?

For coming up on a slow turn, should I quickly get in the right gear first, then brake without the clutch and then turn?

Daniel,

Brakes are to reduce speed, partially or completely.
What MSF should have taught you is to eliminate the push of the engine via clutching-in during an emergency stop.
If I remember correctly, they teach both hands grabbing the levers and both feet pushing down simultaneously.
In the case of the left foot, pushing down as many times as it takes to end up in first gear, if enough time is available.

You don't need to reduce speed to take each turn.
Some curves have such a big radius that you just can keep your speed.
Some curves have such small radius that certain speed is the max safe limit (your bike will skid and fall if you go any faster).
It takes time and practice to judge that max speed for each turn, but it is possible.

The rule of thumb for such curves is to enter slow and leave fast, moderately accelerating as soon as possible.
Leave fast = Max speed for that turn
For that reason, you should enter at a lower speed.
You should try being consistent with that lower speed (let's call it entry speed) for that particular curve; otherwise, you will under-perform that turn (due to excessive or not enough entry speed).

As you want to reach the entry point at a precise speed, you will use your brakes (some use front only, some use both) to eliminate the excess of speed that you are carrying from that fast straight portion of the road.

The rule of thumb mentioned above means that you will need torque from the engine to be available to the rear tire as soon as you go beyond that entry point.
That means that you should have selected the best gear for that job.
Most of the times, that gear will be one or several steps lower than the gear that was ideal for the fast straight that preceded the curve.
If all that is true, you should change one or more gears down in the brief time lapse between the half and end of the braking process.

Here is how to do it:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99060

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...Engine+braking

[Aggrotech]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I'm almost certain in the MSF that they said you should ALWAYS pull in the clutch when braking but I've read otherwise. Because of this, I have a bad habit of pulling in the clutch and coasting through turns with it pulled in.

i did EXACTLY this when i was new. the MSF didnt quite cover it properly in my class imo. My solution was learning how to downshift properly. I knew i was doing it wrong so i did a little research on this site on how to downshift properly and the next week all i did was practice downshifting at different gears/speeds. Now i literally do it every single day .

need to go through a right turn and ur going too fast and need to brake? Downshift before hand and if need be, brake before going into the turn that way you can roll on through and accelerate out like a boss.

[adouglas]

Here's the thing about the MSF BRC: A big part of their objective is to teach brand-new riders enough in the space of a classroom session or two and a single day on a bike to not kill themselves. That means teaching really, really simple techniques that won't cause trouble when you panic and your thought processes go out the window.

That does not necessarily mean they're the "best" techniques and it certainly does not mean that they're the only techniques. They are, however, SAFE techniques. Follow them to the letter and you won't get in trouble. But there are definite advantages to progressing beyond them.

For example, they teach you to not cover the brake while riding. This is good in one sense because in a blind panic you might grab a fistful of brake and cause the bike to crash. But it's bad in another sense because it increases your reaction time significantly.

By drilling it into your head that you should always grab the clutch while braking, you're less likely to get the bike out of shape by inadvertently applying the throttle while you're trying to slow down. (Hey, it can happen… you may have even heard it happen during your BRC. Maybe somebody actually dumped a bike when they inadvertently gassed it.)

As you gain experience you can move beyond these safe, but limiting, basics.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Here's the thing about the MSF BRC: A big part of their objective is to teach brand-new riders enough in the space of a classroom session or two and a single day on a bike to not kill themselves...........As you gain experience you can move beyond these safe, but limiting, basics.

I like your signature, Adouglas, ........that reminds me a late mentor and very good friend of mine.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

I've been riding for awhile now but I'm always thinking of ways to get better or constantly wondering if I'm doing something "wrong" since other than the MSF, I'm self-taught.

What I'm curious about is braking at higher speeds or when coming in for a corner.

I'm almost certain in the MSF that they said you should ALWAYS pull in the clutch when braking but I've read otherwise. Because of this, I have a bad habit of pulling in the clutch and coasting through turns with it pulled in.

So let's say I'm in 5th gear and need to slow down a little bit. Should I pull in the clutch, brake a bit and downshift if needed to 4th gear or simply just brake without the clutch and stay in 5th gear?

For coming up on a slow turn, should I quickly get in the right gear first, then brake without the clutch and then turn?

While the advice in this thread is correct, it needs foundation, a base, to be absorbed correctly. Have you read or watched Twist of the wrist 2? You really should.

[rojoracing53]

Take a look here

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...559#post718559

[adouglas]

I've realized we did not directly answer the original two questions.

Originally Posted by dcx4610

So let's say I'm in 5th gear and need to slow down a little bit. Should I pull in the clutch, brake a bit and downshift if needed to 4th gear or simply just brake without the clutch and stay in 5th gear?

For coming up on a slow turn, should I quickly get in the right gear first, then brake without the clutch and then turn?

The answer to the first question depends on how much you need to slow down. Ninjettes have very little torque so being in the right gear matters a lot. My current bike (a GSX-R750) has so much torque it doesn't make much difference... it can pull out of almost anything. I kind of miss the challenge, to be honest, but it sure is fun to have UNLIMITED POWAH!!!!! (mu-hahahaaa and all that).

Using your specific scenario, if you've got enough rpm for the bike to continue pulling strongly in 5th, then no need to shift. If not, then downshift before you tip in. You can do it at the same time as braking. For that matter, you may not need to use the brake at all... downshift and let the engine slow you. As noted, it all depends on the actual speed and circumstances.

The answer to the second question is, in general, yes. Get all your shifting, slowing, etc. done before you tip in. (Trail braking aside... that's another discussion. In general slowing and THEN turning works well on the street.)

Ideally, you should do nothing after you tip in except roll on the throttle. No additional steering input, no change of body position, no shifting. You make one steering input to set your line and roll on the throttle through the turn. The point of this is to settle the bike's suspension, which keeps you stable.

Go get TOTW2 and read it.

[RJprod]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

What I'm curious about is braking at higher speeds or when coming in for a corner. Because of this, I have a bad habit of pulling in the clutch and coasting through turns with it pulled in.?

Shouldn't be on the brake nor the clutch when turning. all ur braking and downshift should b done before you dip the bike in the turn. I used to do that when I get started thought it was normal too, But get some books like total control and twist of the wrist 1 and 2.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I've realized we did not directly answer the original two questions.



The answer to the first question depends on how much you need to slow down. Ninjettes have very little torque so being in the right gear matters a lot. My current bike (a GSX-R750) has so much torque it doesn't make much difference... it can pull out of almost anything. I kind of miss the challenge, to be honest, but it sure is fun to have UNLIMITED POWAH!!!!! (mu-hahahaaa and all that).

Using your specific scenario, if you've got enough rpm for the bike to continue pulling strongly in 5th, then no need to shift. If not, then downshift before you tip in. You can do it at the same time as braking. For that matter, you may not need to use the brake at all... downshift and let the engine slow you. As noted, it all depends on the actual speed and circumstances.

The answer to the second question is, in general, yes. Get all your shifting, slowing, etc. done before you tip in. (Trail braking aside... that's another discussion. In general slowing and THEN turning works well on the street.)

Ideally, you should do nothing after you tip in except roll on the throttle. No additional steering input, no change of body position, no shifting. You make one steering input to set your line and roll on the throttle through the turn. The point of this is to settle the bike's suspension, which keeps you stable.

Go get TOTW2 and read it.

In addition to this...please wait to practice "being in right gear" until the end. Learn the correct cornering procedure first, so you dont have to think about "ok, braking, braking, off the brake, dont touch clutch", then you can start worrying about being in right gear.
When I work with newbies on the track, the inevitable question comes, "what gear are you in going into turn X". The answer is "In 3rd, but you REALLY need to not worry about it. Learn the line, proper braking, then worry about gear selection".

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

.........
When I work with newbies on the track, the inevitable question comes, "what gear are you in going into turn X". The answer is "In 3rd, but you REALLY need to not worry about it. Learn the line, proper braking, then worry about gear selection".

..........Or those newbies could try this exercise:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=310

Link to original page on YouTube.

[subxero]

I need to work on my down shift blip in the lower gears. Sometimes i hit it perfect but sometimes often on more hard braking instances i get a bad blip and puts to much engine braking on the rear tire.

It happened to me this morning, it was a light rain on my way to work and was on an off ramp with a really sharp right hander and i down shifted and bliped the throttle but did not match well enough and caused my rear to slide a bit, it was really slick out. Years of off road riding made the slight rear slide non issue but it is still something i need to work on more.

[CycleCam303]

Ninja 250 and 300s no wait everything except lazy or scared people on 1000s need to be ridden the same way. People ask what gear you're in? I have no idea what gear I'm in. I just know I want to be as close to redline as possible all the time lol.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by Motofool

..........Or those newbies could try this exercise:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=310

Link to original page on YouTube.

Um, 3rd gear no brake drill REQUIRES knowing correct line and general comfortableness on the bike. Not "Where is the apex....where am I going..."

The whole point of no brake drill is to get riders to go through turns FASTER than they are used to but only after they are actually comfortable and have plateau'ed. Putting a beginner group rider into 3rd gear drill is a recipe for disaster.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by subxero

I need to work on my down shift blip in the lower gears. Sometimes i hit it perfect but sometimes often on more hard braking instances i get a bad blip and puts to much engine braking on the rear tire.

It happened to me this morning, it was a light rain on my way to work and was on an off ramp with a really sharp right hander and i down shifted and bliped the throttle but did not match well enough and caused my rear to slide a bit, it was really slick out. Years of off road riding made the slight rear slide non issue but it is still something i need to work on more.

The 1st day I put GP shift on my 250 (had it on the 675 for months), I was on the track, at the 2nd gear redline and accidentally downshifted into 1st. Now, video shows only about .5s fishtail but it seemed like eternity.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by subxero

I need to work on my down shift blip in the lower gears. Sometimes i hit it perfect but sometimes often on more hard braking instances i get a bad blip and puts to much engine braking on the rear tire......

Try erring on the higher rpms' side.

Pure blipping is directed to engine braking: the transmission engages at the correct rotational speed of the matching gears during the high rpms' part of the blip, just to find resistance from the engine an instant later when the throttle has been closed again.

When you blip and then keep the throttle properly open, the gears match properly, but you eliminate the braking effect of the engine.

In that case, the worst can happen is the bike burst ahead for an instant, which can be quickly eliminated via closing the throttle.

With enough practice, anyone can consistently achieve smooth downshifts in the lower gears.

[subxero]

^ I think i am over thinking it a bit as well, especially in hard braking instances. I was watching that vid that rojo posted of his lever and throttle control and it did not appear that he was blipping the throttle much if at all on the down shifts into the corners and more just riding the engagement zone of the clutch more than anything to control the engine braking. I can do that no problem and if that is the way to go then i think i will be fine. Perhaps i misread something in the past and thought that i should be blipping on the down shifts even when braking hard for a turn? IDK but like i said i can ride the fiction zone of the clutch all day long with out a problem so maybe ill give that a go. Riding small 2stroke dirt bikes a lot especially on hills will turn anyone into a master of the clutch in no time

I should add that this is more of a spirited ride problem, when i'm cruising i have no issues with blipping on the down shifts, again the problem is when i am braking hard for a turn.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Ninja 250 and 300s no wait everything except lazy or scared people on 1000s need to be ridden the same way. People ask what gear you're in? I have no idea what gear I'm in. I just know I want to be as close to redline as possible all the time lol.

You better be on a track to be riding close to redline all the time on a 1000.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by subxero

Perhaps i misread something in the past and thought that i should be blipping on the down shifts even when braking hard for a turn?

Yes, the proper way is to blip down as you're braking for the turn. It works with the trailbrake since your hardest braking is done before you tip in, so you have a chance to get in the right gear without losing time. THat said, the trick is not to screw up your braking as you blip. It's the same hand doing all the work, and it's very easy to tighten up your braking fingers (or slightly move them) as you blip, and this can have serious (lowside) consequences.

Something that should not need to be stated but I'll say it anyway: If you're doing this on the street then you ought to stop.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by subxero

^ I think i am over thinking it a bit as well, especially in hard braking instances. I was watching that vid that rojo posted of his lever and throttle control and it did not appear that he was blipping the throttle much if at all on the down shifts into the corners and more just riding the engagement zone of the clutch more than anything to control the engine braking.

I also remember another thread were @rojoracing53 said in so many words does not blipp the throttle that he is aware of. I do not think blipping the throttle is something noobs should be thinking about at all.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by allanoue

I also remember another thread were @rojoracing53 said in so many words does not blipp the throttle that he is aware of. I do not think it is something noobs should be thinking about at all.

I not aware of half the **** I do while riding a motorcycle

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I not aware of half the **** I do while riding a motorcycle

I second that thought. If you had to stop and think about what you're doing it would take too long. It just comes naturally.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by subxero

^ I think i am over thinking it a bit as well, especially in hard braking instances...........Perhaps i misread something in the past and thought that i should be blipping on the down shifts even when braking hard for a turn? IDK but like i said i can ride the fiction zone of the clutch all day long with out a problem so maybe ill give that a go.................I should add that this is more of a spirited ride problem, when i'm cruising i have no issues with blipping on the down shifts, again the problem is when i am braking hard for a turn.

Quoted from Rojo's thread:

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

...........I automatically only use as much reverse clutch braking as needed per situation so for normal street riding I don't slip it much if any at all, but for fun canyon rides I believe I do..........

I would say that all you need is more practice on downshifting quicker, Joe.
There are many ways to do it: clutch-less with or without blipping, clutch-braking, etc.
Each rider should try finding the method that best suits his/her natural abilities and road/track conditions.

The traditional way is downshifting with blipping, either for slow or fast decelerations, having the advantage of putting less stress on the engine and transmission parts.

Being old fashion and having learned on small two-stroke bikes, that has been my method for many years and I have found it fully automatic (reflex-wise) and error-free.
As you have pointed, it is the only method to use climbing a step hill with a two-stroke.

Although many of his instructors personally use clutchless downshifting, the official method taught at Keith Code's school and video for racing and track is downshifting with blipping.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I second that thought. If you had to stop and think about what you're doing it would take too long. It just comes naturally.

Someone will come off the track and ask me
1.what's your braking marker for this turn
2. what gear are you in through the turn
3. are you trail braking going into this turn
4. are you weighting the outside peg.

Then I'm like
1. was there braking markers out there
2. Not sure but its probably the correct one
3. I don't know.....maybe
4. Never really thought about it

People ether think I'm secretive or clueless but whatever

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Quoted from Rojo's thread:


I would say that all you need is more practice on downshifting quicker, Joe.
There are many ways to do it: clutch-less with or without blipping, clutch-braking, etc.
Each rider should try finding the method that best suits his/her natural abilities and road/track conditions.

I definitely need more practice, but feel like i'm doing pretty good for only being on the street for 9 months and 3 of them being winter months. Now that im back in Pennsylvania i should get more useful riding time in and not so much highway/traffic grind to and from work. Has been nice and cool last few days.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by subxero

I definitely need more practice, but feel like i'm doing pretty good for only being on the street for 9 months and 3 of them being winter months..........

Your previous off road experience is priceless.