Stupid design decision vent

[adouglas]

One thing that always gets to me is when manufacturers make design choices that hamper serviceability, and for no bloody good reason.

The maintenance schedule for my GSXR calls for plug changes every 7500 miles. Seems awfully short to me, but whatever... I've got about 7200 so took advantage of the winter to go ahead and do it.

Simple... you lift the tank and prop it up (much nicer than the Ninjette), remove the air box to uncover the plug coils, pull 'em and swap the plugs. Easy, right?

First off, the air box is held on with something like TEN screws. Every freakin' car I've owned for the past 20-odd years has had an air box cover held on with simple spring clips. So why? There is no good reason I can think of.

Second, to remove the air box you also need to remove the velocity stacks. Again, no particularly good reason for that. Eight more bolts. The ECU, two hoses, one sensor and the air filter also come out, but that's just par for the course.

Third, the recesses for the plugs are situated so that it's hard to get the socket in there... your extension will be either too long or too short. I had to cobble together a bizarre collection of extensions and adapters to get just the right length, and started asking myself whether I should just buy the blasted Suzuki tool.

Fourth and biggest... the air box has rubber feed tubes that fit into the ram air ducts. No biggie... except that hose, cable and wiring harness routing make it a GINORMOUS PITA to get it in and out. They could have make those rubber tubes just slip-on units, but no... they're screwed in place.

If there were a good reason for all of this mess, no biggie. But nooooo.....

Scrapes, bruises and a healthy dose of foul language later, job done.

It takes about 10 minutes tops on my car. This took at least 45, maybe an hour. For a freakin' set of plugs. Sheesh.

[Sirref]

over engineering ftw!

[alex.s]

it's a race vehicle. you're supposed to drop the engine to do maintenance :P

[csmith12]

There is much that went into the design of your bike. Here are a few reasons why things are the way they are that you may have not thought of;

How things go together to conserve space
Modular design of parts
Weight management/Centralizing mass
Heat management

How things fly apart.

lol

[alex.s]

its really amazing how much work goes into weight centralization these days

[adouglas]

Chris, I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about stuff that could be done simpler/better without affecting anything else.

The air box: 10 screws vs. 4 clips that would do the EXACT SAME THING, weigh less, be easy to remove, have zero risk of dropping them into the engine, and not affect the performance of the bike one whit.

A simple alteration to the way the intake tubes attach, to allow painless removal/reinstall of the air box. The air box itself slides in easily... it's the screwed-on rubber tubes that make it a PITA because they interfere with a bunch of other stuff. So make the tubes in such a way that they pop into place easily. This is not rocket surgery.

etc.

Here's another: On older-gen GSXRs, you could remove the seat without removing bodywork. Now you have to take panels off to get at the seat bolts. WHY????? I take the seat off all the time. I remove those panels ONLY to get the seat off... and the velcro-like stuff that holds them on is so grippy you can tear a fingernail off trying to remove it. Ask me how I know this.

Same bolts. Same location. Stupid bodywork design. Mold a hole the the friggin thing.

Here's another: Bodywork locating tabs so delicate that you WILL break them the first time you try to remove a panel, even if you know where they are and how they work.

You're too young to remember, but GM used to do moronic stuff like this. In the late 1970s they built the Buick Skyhawk, Chevy Monza, Pontiac Sunbird, and Olds Starfire (all the same car with different badges) and stuffed a 3.8 liter V-6 into it. They packaged it in such a way that you had to remove the motor mounts and hoist the engine to replace the rearmost plugs on the right side. No kidding. This was in the days when you had to replace plugs every 12-15k miles. Naturally, most owners balked at the service cost, so they didn't bother.

I once owned a 1977 Chevy Malibu wagon. The steering wheel, driver seat and pedals weren't lined up with one another. Also, when you moved the seat up so a person my size could reach the pedals, you couldn't roll down the window because the crank would hit the seat.

STUPID STUPID STUPID. It comes from siloed engineering, where people don't talk to one another.

I would bet that the Suzuki engineers who designed the intake plenum and air box thought only about how the package would fit together, not what it would take to service the bike.

[cbinker]

I figured they wanted to do it that way so they can over charge the guys that cannot do that work themselves.

[alex.s]

i know it seems like just doing 4 screws would be better but think about it this way- with fewer fasteners, the airbox itself needs to be stronger to support itself between the gaps where the screws were doing the supporting otherwise. so you save weight of screws but then gain weight by the airbox.
and the intake runners... this is a very crucial part for performance. the internal surface area needs to be very precisely shaped. having complicated quick-detachment for an internal performance part not only adds unneeded weight simply for convenience in maintenance (this is a race vehicle remember) but also risks detracting from performance while adding upfront purchase costs all for the goal of making maintenance easier on the mechanic. (these are not things typically wanted by a consumer purchasing a motorcycle, especially a performance bike)

i think the seat bolts being covered by bodywork is a style thing. not a big fan of hidden fasteners myself.

i think you're right in a sense that it is down to the technical design of the thing, but i think you might be missing that you can't design a perfect piece of art every time. if you did, it would cost a fortune. you have constraints like money and time that limit what you are able to do with what you are given. the malibu for example, was probably a common chassis and common components and because of production cost constraints they simply could not produce better customized components for that specific vehicle to alleviate those issues. even when you have no constraints, sometimes things just simply aren't apparent until you try it. you think things will happen one way, but it turns out some little detail was wrong and that changed some other part which resized this other part which is now ****ing with the seat alignment and you need to make compromises... do you redesign a cruicial part of the vehicle for some ancillary noncritical accessory? but what if that accessory has high visibility to the user? there is always give and take. it is very hard to create things that are "perfect". some people say it's impossible.

[Alex]

Airboxes on performance motorcycles are a completely different ball of wax compared to what we have on almost all of our cars. The bike ones are designed for maximum performance, and to utilize the ram air effect to pressurize the intake charge significantly when traveling at triple-digit speeds. It's certainly possible that it could be designed with a few clips instead of a pile of screws, and it's certainly possible that the plumbing heading to it could be easier to attach/detach. But its main goal is to capture as much of that incoming air and keep it pressurized enough to improve engine performance, all while being extremely lightweight itself. If more fasteners are the easiest/cheapest way to meet those design requirements, well, there you go.

[menikmati]

The airbox for my ZX6R was the same way, I hated that there was a screw that was deep into the airbox, right in the center. The screwdriver had to be positioned at an exact angle or else the screw wouldn't move.

I was also paranoid about dropping screws/bolts into the throttle body after removing the velocity stacks.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Chris, I'm not talking about any of that. I'm talking about stuff that could be done simpler/better without affecting anything else.

[bdavison]

Always remember...Mechanics make money on labor, not parts. Then do the math as to why it's so time intensive.

[JohnnyBravo]

Feel better yet

[choneofakind]

two words:

Pre

gen.





Thing is simppplllleeeee

[Jono]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

two words:

Pre

gen.





Thing is simpppllllyyy slow, but simple

fixed




I don't like Suzuki's love for allen head screws/bolts. They are all over on the SV.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Jono

I don't like Suzuki's love for hex head screws/bolts. They are all over on the SV.

pssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssh please. They're really fast because they cannot slow down with those brakes! They reduce speed via sliding on pavement.

I've been slowly swapping over JIS screws to hex head screws as I find places they would be convenient. Carb bowls mainly.

I'm debating replacing the bolts on the case covers like suggested in the Thermobob thread. looks nice, and the stainless hex head fasteners won't oxidize like the bolts on mine currently are. Any places in particular you'd suggest not swapping to stainless hex heads for convenience?

[greenaero]

I agree with @adouglas with his frustration over the difficulty in servicing many modern vehicles. Sometimes it seems almost like someone went out of their way just mkae things more difficult. My pre-gens are fairly easy to work but sometimes I get frustrated with things like how hard it is to remove the valve covers; if only they had left a tiny bit more clearance.

For me , the worst jobs have been with my autos: replacing an alternator on a 2007 Lexus RX350 and replacing a rear wheel bearing on my 2000 Jaguar S-type. On the Lexus it was amazing how many items had to be removed to get access the alternator. But then after finally getting it loose you find these isn't enough clearance to get it out. I t looked like I have to remove the radiator but finally in a stroke of genius I figured out that If loosened the radiator and cut some notches in the fan shroud I couls shift things forward just enough to remove and replace the alternator. Hallelujah!

If there in is a positive note from dealing with these challenges it is from the final satisfaction with finally getting it accomplished. You have separated yourself from the herd of hapless victims who simply shrug and pay out the big bucks for someone else to deal with it. It builds character and saves a large amount of $ too!

[Motofool]

There is a key person in any complex project: the coordinator, or project manager or chief engineer.
He/she is who coordinates the strokes of all the other designers in order to achieve an harmonized effort that renders an expected profit for the group.

He/she has to consider many factors of production, competition, sales and product support.
Among those there are economy of material and work, cost of machines and processes, market demands, budget restrictions, etc.
He/she must make compromises, some things are sacrificed in order to achieve other.

It seems to me that in any evaluation of cost of production versus potential of sales, the post-sale difficulty of maintenance or service is not among the strongest priorities, especially if equivalent products of the competition are not much better about that.

http://engineerexplains.com/answr/Screw-vs-Bolt1.html

[Finesse]

Simple... you lift the tank and prop it up (much nicer than the Ninjette), remove the air box to uncover the plug coils, pull 'em and swap the plugs. Easy, right?

First off, the air box is held on with something like TEN screws. Every freakin' car I've owned for the past 20-odd years has had an air box cover held on with simple spring clips. So why? There is no good reason I can think of.

Second, to remove the air box you also need to remove the velocity stacks. Again, no particularly good reason for that. Eight more bolts. The ECU, two hoses, one sensor and the air filter also come out, but that's just par for the course.

Third, the recesses for the plugs are situated so that it's hard to get the socket in there... your extension will be either too long or too short. I had to cobble together a bizarre collection of extensions and adapters to get just the right length, and started asking myself whether I should just buy the blasted Suzuki tool.

Fourth and biggest... the air box has rubber feed tubes that fit into the ram air ducts. No biggie... except that hose, cable and wiring harness routing make it a GINORMOUS PITA to get it in and out. They could have make those rubber tubes just slip-on units, but no... they're screwed in place.

If there were a good reason for all of this mess, no biggie. But nooooo.....

Scrapes, bruises and a healthy dose of foul language later, job done.

It takes about 10 minutes tops on my car. This took at least 45, maybe an hour. For a freakin' set of plugs. Sheesh.

literally the story of my life for 9 hours every single day.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I've been slowly swapping over JIS screws to hex head screws as I find places they would be convenient. Carb bowls mainly.

I'm debating replacing the bolts on the case covers like suggested in the Thermobob thread. looks nice, and the stainless hex head fasteners won't oxidize like the bolts on mine currently are. Any places in particular you'd suggest not swapping to stainless hex heads for convenience?

I meant to say allen head bolts. My bad. I want more hex type bolts.

These types are on the exhaust headers...


Mine came out without much fuss but I have seen threads where people had issues with the head of the bolt breaking off leaving the thread still in the engine.

And on my bike at least on one of the allen head bolts that tightens the exhaust pipe to the header was rusted really bad. Luckily I got it off.

I just like having normal hex head bolts that allow me to use an open end wrench or socket. Sometimes getting into places with a socket is not easily possible. I'm sure with the right tools this is a non-issue but this is the first vehicle that I've worked on that has a lot of these allen head bolts.

[choneofakind]

derp, I mix up allen and hex head all the time. meh. I've swapped the carb bowls and caps to allen screws.

Seems weird that suzuki uses so many of them. At least swap those to stainless!

[flitecontrol]

If I had the op's bike, it would have iridium plugs slapped in it and I'd never go in there again! What a design PITA!

[Bubba]

7500 miles for plugs? That's bizarre.
Springs won't work here, the engine vibrations are much higher frequency than a car, and the box has more pressure and air flow than a car.
you could get around this with an old bike..but then you'd have an old bike.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Bubba

Springs won't work here, the engine vibrations are much higher frequency than a car, and the box has more pressure and air flow than a car.

Umm. Can you please go more in depth with your reasoning on why springs are not a good option here and how the engine frequency relates to that? I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

Also, how do you think the airbox flows more than say, a 6 Liter V8 in a pickup truck? You realize that even under full ram air effect at 130+ mph, the air box on a supersport only pressurizes to about 1-2 psi, right?


I guess what I'm saying is: please quanlify that statement so I know where you're coming from.

[alex.s]

the airbox is almost always under vacuum when the engine is running. otherwise air would not enter the airbox and go into the engine. you need to be going like 120mph for such a small ram air to have any effect. even then, the pressure inside the airbox is still likely lower than 1 bar because of the vacuum from the engine.

[Motofool]

http://www.vararam.com/ramairinaroadcar.html

[spooph]

@adougles - don't let your lack of ability and/or correct tools translate into blaming the engineers. In any given situation you can have 2 of 3 things, speed, reliability (and serviceability), price. Want a reasonably priced bike with wicked speed that only needs the plugs changed every 7,500 miles, instead of every 400 like the old RD's, put in the time to change the plugs right....

Want no maintenance? Get an electric bike... want it cheap?

I understand your frustration. Really, I do, but that's no reason to blame to the engineers or anybody else who designed the bike. In all reality, these things are technological marvels and really quite badass! I guess all I keep thinking is: if you don't like the way they did it, why don't you do it better?

If you can't do it better, you probably don't understand all the reasons for them having done what they did, which gives you no right to complain...

#nowhining!

[flitecontrol]

Gonna have to call BS on your response. What I got from your post is that engineers always do a good job of design and any problems are due to the consumer's incompetence.

Let me share my experience with Kawasaki's VN750. The regulator/rectifier comes from the factory attached to the bottom of the battery box, where it receives little air for cooling, and frequently gets drenched in acid. There is a simple mod that moves it to a less corrosive location and greatly increases airflow over it. All it takes is a piece of metal a little larger than the R/R with three holes drilled in it. The existing wiring accommodates this mod. Making this modification at the factory wouldn't add fifty cents to the cost of the bike, and might reduce costs due to the ease of installation.

Also, the stator on these bikes will fail due to the high heat they are subjected to. It's not a matter of if it will fail, but when. Guess what? To remove the stator requires that the engine be pulled. On most bikes, stator replacement is a matter of removing a cover and then accessing the stator. Not so with the Vulcan 750! The VN750 frame has a removable section, that would allow access to the stator cover, but it's on the opposite side of the engine! Providing an oil bath to cool the stator extends its life indefinitely. But the engineers who designed the bike didn't provide an oil bath or put the removable frame section where it would do the most good.

Engineers generally do a good job, but they don't always make working on a bike or building in reliability first priority.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by spooph

@adougles - don't let your lack of ability and/or correct tools translate into blaming the engineers.

With all due respect, I've been spinning wrenches since long before you were born and would gladly stake my delicate pink hide on my ability to do the job right. My torque wrench is older than you.

I do know what I'm doing, have a darned fine set of tools (albeit not the special Suzuki plug wrench), and use the factory manual for everything. I enjoy working on the bike. I really do. A zero-maintenance machine would bore me.

But when I encounter something that is obviously shortsighted to anyone with an ounce of common sense, it irks me. That's all I'm saying.

Engineers are humans. Manufacturers can and do build things in such a way that there are unanticipated consequences down the road. In a former life I wrote for an aviation safety magazine, and we ran into this kind of thing all the time.

Example: Cessna 182 fuel bladders. Nothing wrong in theory... but when the bladder got installed in the wing, a wrinkle would form in the bottom that would trap water (condensation), which could not be removed through normal preflight draining. The pilot would take off, and when the plane rotated to climb attitude the water would spill over the dam that the wrinkle formed, get into the fuel line and kill the engine at precisely the worst moment.

The one thing about my bike that truly got to me was the air tubes. When you hold that airbox in your hand, it's lovely. Nicely made. Everything makes sense. When you look at it installed, the same applies.

But GETTING it installed outside the manufacturing workflow... that's the catch.

[nickjpass]

mine is pretty fun too. are you sure you have to take those screws out from the airbox? on my zx there are clamps on the stacks. I loosen those through the frame, and the box comes off whole. Guess Suzuki isn't cool enough

[adouglas]

Hah. I'm with you there.... in some ways the Ninjette was a better-built bike (more robust bodywork).

Yeah, all those screws do have to come out.

[Ninjinsky]

You have my permission to dream of plug and airbox access past

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by adouglas

The one thing about my bike that truly got to me was the air tubes. When you hold that airbox in your hand, it's lovely. Nicely made. Everything makes sense. When you look at it installed, the same applies.

But GETTING it installed outside the manufacturing workflow... that's the catch.

i think these types of issues come mostly from the majority of the work being done on a computer these days. you don't see that its hard to get in and out... just that it correctly satisfies its requirements. then the thing gets made and you're like ahh yes. exactly how i wanted it. but then you're using it and you're like **** what the **** was i thinking

[choneofakind]

Yall are also forgetting the whole decision matrix thing. You decide what is 'best' by predetermined categories that are all assigned 'weight'. The more important a thing is, the more weight that decision is given. The selection of options that make the virtual bike with the highest score is the best one. Clearly.

Now in context: it's a supersport. It's intended to be used on track setting. Track bikes get flogged, ridden hard, revved out, and put away wet. Mileage is not normally high for the life of a track bike. Usually they are also worked on by good mechanics with a full spread of manufacturer suggested tools and work manuals. Convenience is not weighted highly. Long service intervals is not weighted highly. Performance is weighted highly. Guess which bike is deemed 'the best'? Now compare to a ninja 650; see the differences in the given decision matrix for the designers?

[broken neck]

Originally Posted by spooph

I do, but that's no reason to blame to the engineers or anybody else who designed the bike. In all reality, these things are technological marvels and really quite badass! I guess all I keep thinking is: if you don't like the way they did it, why don't you do it better?

Mmmmmmmmm...

I would say two words for the first part: KLR650 doohickey...

Three other words for the second part: Eagle Mike doohickey...

So why Kawasaki didn't do anything to fix that problem? And it's not the only obvious thing on the KLR650 that could be easily and cheaply fixed by Kawasaki.

[choneofakind]

Even engineers mess up sometimes. Iirc that issue was a hardness problem. The doohickey was too soft and deformed and stopped working. Sometimes suppliers also do the wrong thing or supply the wrong material.

People aren't perfect. Older bikes are full of problems, most of which have been learned from and improved on newer models.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Even engineers mess up sometimes.

I'm an engineer (aircraft), and I approve this message.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Even engineers mess up sometimes.

Originally Posted by Worldtraveller

I'm an engineer (aircraft), and I approve this message.

/begin imitation CC
do you work for malaysia airlines?
/end imitation CC

[spooph]

Originally Posted by adouglas

With all due respect, I've been spinning wrenches since long before you were born and would gladly stake my delicate pink hide on my ability to do the job right. My torque wrench is older than you.

I do know what I'm doing, have a darned fine set of tools (albeit not the special Suzuki plug wrench), and use the factory manual for everything. I enjoy working on the bike. I really do. A zero-maintenance machine would bore me.

But when I encounter something that is obviously shortsighted to anyone with an ounce of common sense, it irks me. That's all I'm saying.

Engineers are humans. Manufacturers can and do build things in such a way that there are unanticipated consequences down the road. In a former life I wrote for an aviation safety magazine, and we ran into this kind of thing all the time.

Example: Cessna 182 fuel bladders. Nothing wrong in theory... but when the bladder got installed in the wing, a wrinkle would form in the bottom that would trap water (condensation), which could not be removed through normal preflight draining. The pilot would take off, and when the plane rotated to climb attitude the water would spill over the dam that the wrinkle formed, get into the fuel line and kill the engine at precisely the worst moment.

The one thing about my bike that truly got to me was the air tubes. When you hold that airbox in your hand, it's lovely. Nicely made. Everything makes sense. When you look at it installed, the same applies.

But GETTING it installed outside the manufacturing workflow... that's the catch.

So, if you know what you're doing you know about the 4 screws which you can access through the side of the frame which allows the airbox to be removed from the velocity stack, instead of disassembling the airbox from the top by removing the 10 screws holding the clamshell together?

And if you have a darn good set of tools, you have a u-joint and extensions which make it nice and easy to get the spark plug socket into and out of the spark plug hole?

My momma taught me to respect my elders, and I understand I'm just a young wipper snapper who doesn't know what he's talking about. I guess I also understand that the change and technology can be hard to adjust to.

I guess I just have a foolish and naive view of the world where I respect those who do know more than me, and realize the things they do, they do for very good reasons.

[alex.s]

haha daaaang spooph callin it like it probably is!