Downshifting for turns

[dirty nasty]

If an 18 wheeler were crashing into me I'd take it as a field day if the truck (along with all its weight) disappeared only leaving its cargo to hit me. Unfortunately, things just don't vanish into thin air as they're hurtling toward you as you sit at an intersection.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Actually....no....its not.

If you are stopped in neutral with two Geo metro's behind you, and all of a sudden you hear jake braking and the squeal of 10,000lbs of wal-mart's finest in a semi locking up the brakes....

Your choices are:

1. Neutral = the mayo to a geo metro sandwich.
2. 1st gear = having to fill out a witness form.

There's the issue, always keep moving up to the front.

You don't get sandwiched when you are at the front, unless you get pushed the full way through the junction (intersection) & into the next line of traffic. If that happens then you've been hit so hard that you probably won't be in much of a condition to worry about it anyway.

Coming to a complete stop between 2 other vehicles is generally a bad idea. Filter up to the front so you never end up in a sandwich.

[dirty nasty]

You're forgetting we're from America. Our laws will write us tickets and give us points against our driver's license if we're caught ****ing up. Our laws unfortunately consider filtering (called lane splitting here) as "****ing up". Only state that has the rules about filtering/lane splitting right (but has everything else backwards) is California.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

You're forgetting we're from America. Our laws will write us tickets and give us points against our driver's license if we're caught ****ing up. Our laws unfortunately consider filtering (called lane splitting here) as "****ing up". Only state that has the rules about filtering/lane splitting right (but has everything else backwards) is California.

Your laws & the anti filtering brigade seem to be ****ing things up, over here sitting between vehicles is considered asking for trouble, being ahead of them is the normal situation

[Aggrotech]

Had the same problem OP. Would hold the clutch in during a turn, knew i was doin it all wrong so i finally said fck it, learned how to blip + downshift properly and after a good 20mins it was all good. Since I ride by myself and am self taught, im sure theres still some stuff im really bad at, but at least im able to properly go through a turn without holding the clutch in :P

[dirty nasty]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Your laws & the anti filtering brigade seem to be ****ing things up, over here sitting between vehicles is considered asking for trouble, being ahead of them is the normal situation

Yep. A lot of our laws don't make sense at all. If filtering and lane splitting were allowed I probably wouldn't lane split while moving, but I definitely would filter to the front at every single light or in traffic. That's the bike's largest advantage over a cage in traffic. It's insane our governments don't allow us to at least filter to the front at lights. Damn jealous cager lobbyists I suppose.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

Yep. A lot of our laws don't make sense at all. If filtering and lane splitting were allowed I probably wouldn't lane split while moving, but I definitely would filter to the front at every single light or in traffic. That's the bike's largest advantage over a cage in traffic. It's insane our governments don't allow us to at least filter to the front at lights. Damn jealous cager lobbyists I suppose.

It's legal here & I generally don't filter in moving traffic, when I do it's usually going less than 10 mph or so & I'm 100% alert for idiots trying to pinch an inch somewhere.

A small % of vehicles being bikes filtering speeds up traffic by a considerable amount of time.

A study from last year found 10% of rush hour commuters cages replaced by bikes filtering reduces traffic congestion by 63%

[alex.s]

what is the point of clicking to neutral outside of laziness? there is none. what advantages can be had by leaving it in gear? i could write a book about it. so now tell me which is a better idea?

[dirty nasty]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

It's legal here & I generally don't filter in moving traffic, when I do it's usually going less than 10 mph or so & I'm 100% alert for idiots trying to pinch an inch somewhere.

A small % of vehicles being bikes filtering speeds up traffic by a considerable amount of time.

A study from last year found 10% of rush hour commuters cages replaced by bikes filtering reduces traffic congestion by 63%

Indeed. That is awesome. If only our legislature saw it that way.

**** like this really makes me want to travel the world and live the way other countries and cultures live.

[alex.s]

it's legal in California.

[dirty nasty]

I know. I've stated that if you've read my previous posts.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

what is the point of clicking to neutral outside of laziness? there is none. what advantages can be had by leaving it in gear? i could write a book about it. so now tell me which is a better idea?

It comes from what my advanced training instructors taught me, the move is commonly known (at least on this side of the pond) as the Hendon shuffle.

Approaching a complete stop (red light)

• Roll off in (usually) 2nd
• feather the brakes to a stop, keep the rear brake applied
  If there is traffic stopped behind you
• apply front brake (to keep brake light lit) right foot down, click to neutral, left foot down, right foot back onto rear brake.

On warning (Red & yellow) light

• Apply hand brake,
• Right foot down, clutch in,
• Click into 1st, left foot down & right foot up onto rear brake
• Release front brake
• Check front, mirror, front, mirror, lifesaver, front & go

Now maybe you know more about street riding than police bike instructors who train lads to ride all day in all traffic situations & all weather conditions, but as far as I know you're a track junkie.

I'll happily take your advice on track skills, but I'll take the advice of the top road riding instructors for my road skills.

(sorry for the delay, my WiFi went down & I didn't feel like typing that up on my phone)

[ai4px]

I've perused this thread and seen some good and bad advice. Whatever you do don't listen to Unregistered, he's full of blue mud.

Seriously, going thru a curve with the clutch in is the same as going thru a curve in neutral. All slowing needs to be before you get to the apex of the curve, and after that, you should start rolling on the throttle. Try it and you'll feel the bike "hunker down" and feel right as you exit a curve. If your clutch is in, how will you accelerate? It puts you in a bad predicament because it is impossible to exactly match the engine speed to bike speed and the last thing you want to do is have the bike lurch or flinch when you are leaned over.

As for what gear to be in.... unlike cars, motorcycles have a great deal of overlap in their gearing. The gear you need to be in is the one that is just about where you engine's power curve starts to pull. remember you are setting up the exit of the curve. When you get to the apex, you need to be in a gear that isn't too high and bogs your engine.

Until you are better skilled, do not brake when leaned over. Roll off the throttle to slow down. If you must brake (ie emergency) straighten the bike upright and brake. As you get better you'll be able to break this rule. Be cautious and don't get yourself into a situation where you have to hard break when leaned over.

Do not chop the throttle when leaned over. It makes all the weight go to the front wheel and to the outside of the curve. Rollllll on, rollllll off. Learn it. Live it. Do it. Try it in a car some time and watch the car tip to the front-outside when you chop the gas.

Do not do anything that suddenly changes the weight distribution or traction of the bike when in a curve.

Sometimes I have tensed up when I've realized I was hitting a curve a little hotter than I thought I should. You've gotta relax. I tell myself that my bike handles good enough to get thru this on its own as long as I don't screw it up. Let the bike do what feels right to the bike. It can lean over further than you imagine without loosing traction.

And when stopping, be in whatever gear will allow you to escape as you slow. When you finally come to rest, you should be in first. If your nose itches and you must scratch with your left hand, shift to neutral only after someone is stopped behind you. I tend to stop on the left or right side of the lane. 1) it's not the center where people sit dripping oil for minutes at a time, and 2)it gives you a place to go if some idiot txting behind you isn't stopping... you can escape to the left or right quickly.

[choneofakind]

You should stay in gear with the clutch pulled at a light.

1) you can move if you need to
2) It's less annoying to other drivers because it doesn't take you forever to start moving again. Drivers are jerks.
3) Bikes have a history of not liking going into 1st at lights. You have to let the clutch out a little to the friction zone and let it drop into first gear for you.

I never sit at lights in neutral. I sit in 1st gear with one of the brakes in use. When the light turns green, I look both ways, and start moving. That simple.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

It comes from what my advanced training instructors taught me, the move is commonly known (at least on this side of the pond) as the Hendon shuffle.

Approaching a complete stop (red light)

• Roll off in (usually) 2nd
• feather the brakes to a stop, keep the rear brake applied
  If there is traffic stopped behind you
• apply front brake (to keep brake light lit) right foot down, click to neutral, left foot down, right foot back onto rear brake.

On warning (Red & yellow) light

• Apply hand brake,
• Right foot down, clutch in,
• Click into 1st, left foot down & right foot up onto rear brake
• Release front brake
• Check front, mirror, front, mirror, lifesaver, front & go

Now maybe you know more about street riding than police bike instructors who train lads to ride all day in all traffic situations & all weather conditions, but as far as I know you're a track junkie.

I'll happily take your advice on track skills, but I'll take the advice of the top road riding instructors for my road skills.

(sorry for the delay, my WiFi went down & I didn't feel like typing that up on my phone)

Saying something is correct without giving any reason or explanation out side of "somebody told me so" is extremely ignorant. Give me one good reason why you would ever flip into neutral while you are on the street outside of laziness. Answer me that one question with a valid reason and I will concede I know nothing. Can't answer it with a valid reason? It's because there is none. Kicking into neutral is a habit to save your hand from hurting. It might be okay where you live, I don't know the frequency of rear ends. But you will never see me sitting on the street in neutral.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Get all your braking and downshifting done before you turn in.

FALSE.

Trail-braking

[Gurk]

There's so much bad advice in this thread that it gave me cancer.

So long, earth.

[csmith12]

ikr....

[alex.s]

Learned trail braking is next to pointless on the 250. Instead of braking more, brake less and hit the gas sooner. Ive

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Gurk

Trail-braking

Yeah, but the OP is a newbie iirc. So I recommended separating braking and turning, just so they can get experience making some clean and smooth turns.

[dirty nasty]

Originally Posted by Gurk

FALSE.

Trail-braking

I never knew that had a name. I always thought of it as "getting on the brakes late".

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by dcx4610

Downshifting for turns???????

I'm about 500 miles in on my 250 so far ............

Poor OP, he should be really confused at this point !!!

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yeah, but the OP is a newbie iirc. So I recommended separating braking and turning, just so they can get experience making some clean and smooth turns.

Trail-braking is not just for track day riders. It can actually save lives.
A lot of people wonder (sometimes even I do this mistake eventhough I know about it) why they run wide in turns. Throttle tightens your turn, sure. But if you don't point your bike first, that's the whole reason you started running wide. Throttle comes after that to keep you running too wide in the EXIT.

Brakes help you turn in your bike tighter (since compressed forks make the contact patch on your tires bigger) When you let go off the brakes before you turn, your contact patch gets smaller and the bike feels like a tank and doesn't dive in the corner easily so you enter pretty wide. This is where noobs get scared and they lock their eyes on that beautiful pavement.

Key is to not go full retard like I did and lifted my rear up going in a turn

[Gurk]

@alex.s, you're right. what i've stated above is way less impactful on a 250. Maybe even less since OP is probably referring to traffic speeds.

[csmith12]

Gurk,

Your gunna run into a solid wall of disagreement, trying to say rolling off or braking in a turn is in any way, shape or form is helpful. Despite it being covered in TOTW2 in multiple contexts (debris in road or re-pointing the bike).

Good luck fine sir, your gunna need it.

[choneofakind]

I'm not arguing with Gurk; he's right.

I was just trying to make it simpler to a new rider so he can work on one skill at a time. On the 250, it's easy to slow to a safe turning speed, apply "constant speed throttle" approaching a turn, turn it in, get to apex, and then open the throttle. Gurk's R6 requires a little more finesse than a 250, especially at track speeds. For a learning rider on the street, it's easier to put fewer variables into the mix.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Saying something is correct without giving any reason or explanation out side of "somebody told me so" is extremely ignorant. Give me one good reason why you would ever flip into neutral while you are on the street outside of laziness. Answer me that one question with a valid reason and I will concede I know nothing. Can't answer it with a valid reason? It's because there is none. Kicking into neutral is a habit to save your hand from hurting. It might be okay where you live, I don't know the frequency of rear ends. But you will never see me sitting on the street in neutral.

I take it you've never been in the military or worked in a regulated industry where SOPs & best practise are drilled into your head & considered to be the law/your bible & deviation from procedures are unacceptable.

I've done both for the best part of the last decade.

In both industries it's not a case of 'someone told me to do it this way' it's a case of various methods have been evaluated & tested, the best way to do it has been found, and now it's the standard method. The method outlined above is a refinement of the original method which takes stopping on a hill into account (the original didn't).

The Hendon shuffle is taught as part of 'the system' (Roadcraft - The Police Rider's Handbook, Ask @gfloyd he should be familiar with it) which is the basis of all advanced rider training on this side of the Atlantic. The Institute of Advanced Motorists & Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (IAM & RoSPA) both require the hendon shuffle for their tests.

You live in cali, I would have assumed you filter to the top of the Q, it's very rare to be rear ended when you move forward through stopped traffic & are quicker off the line than every cage around you.

I don't click into neutral in stop-go traffic, and not until there is something substantial stopped behind me at a red light, even then I keep an all around scan & cover the clutch to be ready to click & go. If I think it's unsafe I'm ready & I'll be out of there before I find out one way or the other.

[alex.s]

Right. So you have no valid reason outside of "someone told me so"

That's what I thought.

I do live in California. I ride my bike and lane split every day. And there has never been an advantage that I have gained from putting the bike in neutral. Outside of a need to adjust gear, or because I'm tired of holding the clutch.

If you want to disagree with me then explain what advantage going to neutral gets you. And don't just say because so and so says it's standard proceedure.

If I told you it was standard proceedure to douche your asshole after you brush your teeth at night, would you?

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Right. So you have no valid reason outside of "someone told me so"

That's what I thought.

You fail your basic riding test if you don't (no MSF here, you do your test on the road, with an instructor/tester following you on their bike.) The instructor is trained in the system & has to have RoSPA Gold standard. You are trained to follow the system. If you do not follow the system you fail the test & don't get a licence.

The advanced rider training is based on the system, the advanced tests are based on the system, you deviate for no good reason you fail.

Try telling Keith Code that you prefer to trail brake, see how far that gets you in CSS

Originally Posted by alex.s

If I told you it was standard proceedure to douche your asshole after you brush your teeth at night, would you?

I'm not of that persuasion so I'll leave that one up to you, I'm sure you have your reasons to do it, whether you just enjoy the sensation or want to clean it up before/after it's had a visitor...

[dirty nasty]

I'll tell them I prefer to do wheelies when leaving lights, do Chinese wheelies when coming to stops and when going through turns I like to get a flat tracker counter-steer effect going on like so.



**** the rules man.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

.......left foot down, right foot back onto rear brake........You are trained to follow the system. If you do not follow the system you fail the test & don't get a licence.......

With such a set of illogical procedures, it seems to be a system very hard to follow.

At least from my ignorant point of view, all that switching of feet and use of rear brake during a stop is less safe than just braking and keeping the bike from moving only with the front brake, putting only the right foot down and keeping the left foot up either for changing to first (as the system requires) or neutral (for adjusting gear or resting left hand) at will.

Originally Posted by alex.s

........And there has never been an advantage that I have gained from putting the bike in neutral. Outside of a need to adjust gear, or because I'm tired of holding the clutch.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

You fail your basic riding test if you don't (no MSF here, you do your test on the road, with an instructor/tester following you on their bike.) The instructor is trained in the system & has to have RoSPA Gold standard. You are trained to follow the system. If you do not follow the system you fail the test & don't get a licence.

The advanced rider training is based on the system, the advanced tests are based on the system, you deviate for no good reason you fail.

Try telling Keith Code that you prefer to trail brake, see how far that gets you in CSS



I'm not of that persuasion so I'll leave that one up to you, I'm sure you have your reasons to do it, whether you just enjoy the sensation or want to clean it up before/after it's had a visitor...

A valid skill to possess, it is. Something you use every day it is not. We have all given examples of why it's a bad idea. Can you give us any example of its benefit outside of "people require me to know how to do it"?

I don't argue with what code says cause he describes reasoning behind it. Finish your braking so you can get back on the gas sooner because you want to not only go faster, but because being on the gas stabilizes the bike better.

So now, could you explain a reason why you would go to neutral on the street? A real reason, not because someone told you nor that it's sop. Tell me why they told you this. Why is it sop.

[thomason2wheels]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you do not want to be leaned over without being on the gas. this will lead to a crash. you will overload the front tire and drop the bike.

finish all of your braking and downshifting (any slowing down) before you begin the turn. once you are done slowing down, the clutch should be fully disengaged.

I think what Alex meant to say was that once you are done slowing down and in the gear you intend to use for the corner, drive through the corner under moderate power. The idea is to keep the load on the tires balanced front to rear. You want to avoid upsetting the balance of the bike with it leanedover. Make sense? And yes do an msf course asap.


i suggest you take the msf course.

[alex.s]

Should be 60/40 weight on the rear tire in a turn ideally according to the experts. Not ballenced. h

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Motofool

With such a set of illogical procedures, it seems to be a system very hard to follow.

At least from my ignorant point of view, all that switching of feet and use of rear brake during a stop is less safe than just braking and keeping the bike from moving only with the front brake, putting only the right foot down and keeping the left foot up either for changing to first (as the system requires) or neutral (for adjusting gear or resting left hand) at will.

The drill is fairly basic once you have it in you're head/muscle memory. Covering the rear brake instead of the front means the bike is less likely to tip over if you do get shunted from the rear. It's easier to take off from a hill start with the rear brake.

Clicking into neutral (while Alex.s claims is just laziness) lets tension off the clutch system & rider's left forearm (important if you're doing a fair bit of filtering through traffic feathering the clutch most of the time) & if it gets a knock it can't shoot off (more of a problem with bigger capacity machines than the 250)

But then again once you are at the head of a stopped line of traffic there is very little chance of a stopped vehicle hitting you.

Originally Posted by alex.s

A valid skill to possess, it is. Something you use every day it is not. We have all given examples of why it's a bad idea. Can you give us any example of its benefit outside of "people require me to know how to do it"?

So now, could you explain a reason why you would go to neutral on the street? A real reason, not because someone told you nor that it's sop. Tell me why they told you this. Why is it sop.

I use it at pretty much every red light on my commute where I know I’ll be waiting over about 10 seconds, I’ve filtered to the front of the Q, and have a suitable vehicle behind me to prevent being rear ended. If I’m sitting in traffic it’s a case of clutch in & ready to move off at the first opportunity (even at that I feel very exposed if there is free space behind me).

Of all the crashes I hear of being rear-ended is very rare, (generally it's a case of going too fast, someone pulls out across the biker's path, or loss of traction due to any combination of weather & tram lines, road markings, diesel, wet leaves...)

I’ve never heard of anyone being sandwiched, maybe drivers over here are better/more attentive than US drivers, (from what I see on Ninjette that’s not too difficult) but also because we move to the front of the Q, even if something does get rear ended it's usually at the other end of a line of traffic.

It was something that I was taught originally, that every subsequent advanced riding instructor has covered, it makes sense to me, and that has not let me down in my years of daily commuting across cities ranging from a few hundred thousand up to 5 million people during rush hour. It was developed by the London Metropolitan Police riders school, partly to reduce wear on the clutch & partly to avoid leaving the rider gripping the lever constantly, if it’s laziness then so be it, but if it was considered dangerous it would not still be considered best practise & not still be taught at every level from Compulsory Basic Training up to Police Class 1/RoSPA Gold.

It does require that you are on the ball regarding your situational awareness (which is not a problem for me)

[alex.s]

Do a search for something like "motorcycle rear ended after stalling at Green Light" or something.
Good for you If idiots in cars and trucks behind you don't immediately try to ram their car up your ass. Maybe next you will tell me people don't shoot at you from their cars where you live. The point I'm trying to make is a motorcycle shouldn't jump in front of a bunch of already pissy people and then lollygag while they mess around with neutral. And if you don't arive in first there is a chance the output shaft will have the dogs misaligned leaving you stuck trying to get into first for at least a few moments. You say it takes stress off the clutch as if the clutch is some delicate mystery box... What are you worried of breaking? Your cable? Do you do much maintenance on the bike? Like... Lining and inspecting cables.

Like I said. You don't have to call it laziness. Call it relieving the stress of your firearm. But you shouldn't be at the front of the line dollying around. And going into neutral in that situation is asking for trouble

[alex.s]

Here's my point. You can either stay ready. Or you can make your self an inanimate object. I prefer to stay ready until it's parked

[Motofool]

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

......Covering the rear brake instead of the front means the bike is less likely to tip over if you do get shunted from the rear. It's easier to take off from a hill start with the rear brake.

.......But, while the light is red, the left foot is down and the gear box is in neutral.

The uphill light now turns to green.

Then you have to grab the front brake, release the rear brake, put the right foot down, put the left foot up, click into first gear, release front brake and give gas simultaneously.

Almost all cars in USA are automatic, and they are never in neutral at red lights.
They remain on the brakes, in first gear and just ready for a quick release of the brakes and a push on the gas pedal.

Splitting lanes and filtration for traffic lights is legal only in California.

Besides doing as Alex does, I always stop behind a car with my bike pointing to either side of that car, only right foot down, with my eyes on the rear mirror and ready to split lanes; at least until one or two cars stop behind me.

Then, if I want to rest my left hand, just use the wonderful Kawa positive selector and click into neutral.

I may be wrong but I feel less vulnerable.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Do a search for something like "motorcycle rear ended after stalling at Green Light" or something.
Good for you If idiots in cars and trucks behind you don't immediately try to ram their car up your ass. Maybe next you will tell me people don't shoot at you from their cars where you live. The point I'm trying to make is a motorcycle shouldn't jump in front of a bunch of already pissy people and then lollygag while they mess around with neutral. And if you don't arive in first there is a chance the output shaft will have the dogs misaligned leaving you stuck trying to get into first for at least a few moments. You say it takes stress off the clutch as if the clutch is some delicate mystery box... What are you worried of breaking? Your cable? Do you do much maintenance on the bike? Like... Lining and inspecting cables.

Like I said. You don't have to call it laziness. Call it relieving the stress of your firearm. But you shouldn't be at the front of the line dollying around. And going into neutral in that situation is asking for trouble

Our gangsters are a lot less GANGSTA, & a lot more ruthlessly efficient, they're either coked up drug dealers or ex paramilitary/terrorists who use IEDs or get up close & personal before firing, most guns are illegal meaning civilians don't carry, so no where I'm from I've only heard of 1 drive by shooting (and an assassination from the back of a bike) in as long as I can remember.

I don't piss about once I'm at the top of the Q, I don't piss about on the bike in general, same as when I'm armed, its a case of 100% aware & alert at all times. If I think I'm losing concentration it's time for a break & caffiene.

Almost every bike here moves up to the top of the Q, and moves off well before any cagers have got back into gear, .

I do the basics, last 2 places I've lived have been pretty central locations which don't have garages, the bike lives outside so I'm pretty observant when it comes to it's condition.

Presume you meant forearm... relieving stress on my firearm involves keeping it's action uncocked so there's not constant tension on the springs, same as not leaving the bike sitting with the clutch in.

Originally Posted by Motofool

.......But, while the light is red, the left foot is down and the gear box is in neutral.

The uphill light now turns to green.

Then you have to grab the front brake, release the rear brake, put the right foot down, put the left foot up, click into first gear, release front brake and give gas simultaneously.

Almost all cars in USA are automatic, and they are never in neutral at red lights.
They remain on the brakes, in first gear and just ready for a quick release of the brakes and a push on the gas pedal.

Splitting lanes and filtration for traffic lights is legal only in California.

Besides doing as Alex does, I always stop behind a car with my bike pointing to either side of that car, only right foot down, with my eyes on the rear mirror and ready to split lanes; at least until one or two cars stop behind me.

Then, if I want to rest my left hand, just use the wonderful Kawa positive selector and click into neutral.

I may be wrong but I feel less vulnerable.

The light gives a 3 second warning before going green, more than enough time to get back into gear. sequence is Red => red + yellow => Green =>Yellow => Red. (Not the same back home, but you see the other side's light going yellow if your observation is up to standard.)

I'd do one more bit at the end, Left down Right up, onto the rear brake & off the front one to free up my right hand to concentrate on throttle.

Very few cars here are automatic, so I didn't take that into consideration, different countries, different situations.

What you do sounds right for the legal situation in the USA, I'd feel pretty vulnerable stopped at the back end of a line with more traffic coming up behind me (especially stuff the size of an Escalade or a dodge RAM...)